Loading...In this week’s Readers’ Mailbag we move away from the academic study of the New Testament to much broader and more important questions of relevance to us all, involving how we relate to others and live in the world. The question is about attitudes and responses to suffering. The question came in a comment about an earlier post I had done.
QUESTION:
You said ‘My ultimate view is that even if suffering may lead us away from a belief in God, as it did for me, it should at the same time lead us toward humility in the face of the universe and toward a more caring, loving attitude toward those who suffer.’ I guess I didn’t see in your article a clear explanation for why suffering should lead towards the things you mention. I do not think you are wrong, but it would be good to have it rationed out, as I think this is the only place you make a claim without any evidence.
RESPONSE:
Ah, I can see how my conclusion may well not make sense when the logic / thinking in my head doesn’t get written down on the page! As it turns out, I don’t have any “evidence” for my view. It’s just my view, a view that seems to follow from my position. Or at least I should say it seems to follow for *me*. I repeatedly notice (not just by reading the daily news, though that’s a blazingly obvious place to start) that my view — that we should be more humble in the face of the universe and more loving toward those who suffer — is not shared by large masses of people, including privileged people, who, because of their privilege, which in most cases is handed to them at birth (I myself: born a white male in mid-century America in very comfortable circumstances. Which of that did I *deserve* or *earn* exactly??) are far more interested in advancing their privilege and growing it at the expense of others, not giving a damn for those they hurt in the process. Hence our daily headlines. But, well, I try not to despair. There are masses of good folk out there as well. Take the members of this blog for instance!
So, briefly, to explain my view of suffering. This will be just a brief statement: I’ve talked about it all at length on the blog before (just look up “suffering” in a word search) and in my book God’s Problem: How The Bible Fails to Answer our Most Important Question – Why We Suffer. The basic line: even though raised as a Christian and for many years a seriously committed evangelical, I eventually left the faith, not because of my biblical scholarship and the attendant realization that the Bible is not a completely reliable book handed down by God, but because I was no longer satisfied with the “answers” to why there is so much pain and misery in the world if there was a God who was in charge of it, who interceded for those in need, and who answered prayer.
I had thought about the issue for many years; I had read about it; talked about it; taught about it; pondered the various answers people have given: regular ole folk, philosophers, theologians, etc. At one point I finally decided, I just don’t believe it any more. If everyone suffered about like *I* do, I could probably live with it. But not in a world where five people die of malaria every minute, something like 1500 every hour from not having clean water, something like 20,000 children every day of starvation. Yes, I know we can work to solve these problems, and if we don’t, it’s our fault. But some problems we won’t solve – 300,000 people killed in a tsumani, e.g. And more important, it’s only been within the last century that we have had the wherewithal even to *think* about ending poverty and hunger and … so on. If God were active in helping us do that now, finally, where was he for, say, the past 30,000 years?
In any event, I am not saying you should agree with me. Not at *all*. I’m saying that this is what led me to lose my faith in the existence of God. If everyone had roughly my life, yeah, I’d still believe in a loving God who was in control. Absolutely. But it’s hard to tell an eight-year old girl in Ethiopia, emaciated from starvation and soon to die, that God loves her and is doing the best for her. And for me, a well-fed American, to tell her that it’s all OK because she’ll wake up in heaven is – again, for me – a grotesque abomination.
So I left my faith. Others have as well. The question being asked is: why should that make us more humble in the face of the universe and more caring for others?
Humility. My view is that the universe we inhabit is not caring and it is not conscious. It does not want the best for us. But it is almost infinitely powerful. We are not going to overpower it. We may *think* that we can control it: but all we are merely controlling part of the tiny bubble we happen to live in. The laws of physics will have their way, and there’s no way to stop them. You may control entropy for a brief while, but in the end, the material universe will disperse.
That means we are not the most important of all things in existence. For one thing, we have not been here long. Many of us on the blog are “historically minded,” and for most of us that means we are obsessed with the events that have transpired at certain (small) points over the past 2000 years, or possibly, for some of us 3000 years, or, possibly, a bit more. But what is 2000 years in relation to 13.8 billion (i.e., since the universe has been around). Not even the blink of an eye. And what is 13.8 billion to the trillions that lie ahead? Not even the blink of an eye.
The author of Ecclesastes had no idea of Big Bangs, Entropy, Black Holes, or anything else connected with the universe’s past or future. But he realized that life is short, like the mist of the field you see when you first get up, but is gone by breakfast.
If all this doesn’t make us humble in the face of reality, then, well, OK. Lfe is short — so go ahead and refuse to be humbled! J
Caring. And why should the realities of our existence make us more caring for others? Basic answer (for me): We are all in this together, and there is no one else out there to help us.
We are all related to one another, biologically, socially, culturally, humanly. Being human means having the ability to be aware of ourselves and others (we are endowed with one of the universe’s most amazing miracles: consciousness). We recognize not just what we ourselves need and want, but what others need and want. That enables us to care.
I used to think that God was the ultimate care-giver: if things are bad now, he will make them better later. Now I no longer think so. That means if someone is going to be helped, I have to help them. They are my brother or sister. I want to help them. I better help them. If I don’t, there is no other source of help. Why should I? I’m a human, not a rock or a thorn bush or a slug. I have feelings and a natural tendency to care for others (virtually all humans do: at least to care for *some* others). Developing the caring nature is better than thwarting it. Better for others and better for me, the one who is endowed with that nature.
And so that’s why I think loss of faith should not only make us more humble in the face of the universe, but more giving of ourselves to others.
I don’t think for a second I can convince people of this. It is easy to find arguments against it. The arguments against it are in our face, every day, in what we read, hear, and see. Many, many people are interested in asserting their power and privilege as much as they can, others be damned. Since life is short, in this view, and I’m going to screw whomever I need to make life better for myself.
I don’t want to be like that. I don’t want to turn my back on others who are less privileged than I am, and who are suffering, many of them suffering horribly, because of the accidents of their birth and/or the accidents of their life. It is not because God loves me and I want to imitate his love to others – though I am deeply and profoundly impressed and motivated by people who have this view and act on it. For me it is because I am human, and being human means caring for those who are here with me in a harsh universe where there is no source of good above us who is in control. Caring makes me more human. And it provides a sense of meaning and purpose in this blink-of-an-eye life I have to live.
Thank you, Bart. This was a fantastic post. I enjoyed reading it. Ironically I was meditating on this subject yesterday. I go back and forth between being something like a secular Protestant and an agnostic. For whatever reason, there is no consistency whatsoever in my worldview. However, whenever I’m leaning more towards agnosticism, I notice how my behavior changes. I become less humble, less caring, and more selfish and prideful. So my experience is the exact opposite of yours. So I think certain religions like Christianity have the potential to modify or improve behavior, so in that sense, they are beneficial for society.
Today’s blog is outstanding and timely especially to what is happening right now. I agree with you. Suffering is not something that a god chooses to impose on us or take away…suffering will always be with us and it is up to us to step in and help ease its pain…not to seek divine magical intervention. I personally appreciate your thoughts on this today. Thank you.
Well said. We, as animals evolved over countless years, possess a brain that includes a genetic capacity for altruism. It has helped us survive in the wild by looking out for each other and it can help us now in the modern age even more. Denying this compulsion to help the less fortunate cannot be mentally healthy and, like you said, denies our humanity – makes us less human. There is literally no one else to do it for us.
Very well put. Thank you.
I thought this was a history blog. If you’re being consistent, “what evidence do you have of all this in history?
Dr. Herman, I just had a conversation yesterday with a very fundamentalist coworker about how one can be a moral person without being a Christian. So perfect timing. I find myself being a much more caring person after leaving fundamentalism and religious belief many years ago. That’s such a unbelievable statement to religious folks but it’s true. As a great admirer of Darwin, it’s a humbling feeling to know and realize that we as humans are in this great struggle for existence like all life on earth. Thanks for posting.
Wow. It really sounds like you are teetering on the same brink of conclusion that many of us Christians have made regarding the exercise of love: “…being human means caring for those who are here with me…”
YOU: Because of “… a harsh universe where there is no source of good above us who is in control.”
ME: Because of the Imago Dei
” Caring makes me more human. And it provides a sense of meaning and purpose…”
YOU: Because you live “… in this blink-of-an-eye life I have to live.”
ME: Because that’s God’s design for perfecting humanity.
The same motivation for different reasons. I think we have more in common than we don’t. I don’t believe faith is as important as what we are motivated to do with our lives.
As long as we both get there, I’m happy!
To quote Carl Sagan, in his book Contact:
“You’re an interesting species. An interesting mix. You’re capable of such beautiful dreams, and such horrible nightmares. You feel so lost, so cut off, so alone, only you’re not. See, in all our searching, the only thing we’ve found that makes the emptiness bearable, is each other.”
Others can make us miserable yet bearable. lol
I think some Christians rationalize suffering by thinking that eternal bliss in heaven will infinitely surpass any suffering on earth, but that overlooks the problem that most people in the world are in situations that are culturally and historically biased against a Christian belief system, and those people, particularly children, are unlikely to come to a “saving faith” in Jesus, however one defines that. And there is not even a majority view of how to be saved among the Christians in the world. I used to be in a significant sect that believed most other “Christians” were apostate and even they were going to end up in hell! So how loving is a system where most people have to suffer here on earth and then suffer even more after death? I prefer the kind of philosophy you describe, thank you.
“Bad times, hard times, this is what people keep saying; but let us live well, and times shall be good. We are the times: Such as we are, such are the times.” – St. Augustine of Hippo
About 40 years ago, a man I met only once took my hand in his for a moment and said that I was meant to be a leader, but specifically, that I should feed the hungry. Leadership never really materialized for me (note the passive language used to make that statement…) but feeding others is something ongoing, through donations to food banks both local and national. Your books intrigued me, Bart, but your stated mission got me to sign on to the blog.
I figure that if my fridge is full, my bills are up to date and my car is not dropping parts along the road on the way to work, I am sufficiently comfortable to contribute to another’s empty cupboard. (or education, or post-disaster home rebuilding, or winter heating fuel, or medical bills.)
No one handed me my single family home, on a leafy suburban street, nor do I thank god or genetics for the relative paleness of my skin. (The bank still holds the deed. I planted the trees myself. I am Sephardic–
a Hispanic Jew, 46% “European”, according to my DNA, the rest Native American, Middle Eastern, and a surprising amount of African.) Am I guilty of Privilege?
According to certain groups, if you don’t look black enough to be discriminated on that basis you do have some privileges. But I don’t see why anyone should feel guilty of their privileges; some are born to riches, some are born to abject poor families. Such are fortunes that fall upon each of us. We have to deal with the hands that we get.
I sometimes like to use this analogy for people who have trouble contemplating vast ages: I live in San Francisco, so I use Golden Gate Park, which is about 4 miles long. Think of the length of that park as representing the age of the planet. Now, we have around 5,000 years, give or take, ore recorded human history; compared to Golden Gate Park, that’s the thickness of a postage stamp placed at the very end of the park.
One other thought: the prisoner’s dilemma provides a mathematically backed argument for why it is better to cooperate rather than compete. Of course, that requires some of that humility that, as you say, we all need.
It’s deserving saying that likewise M. Geborand buying a pennyworth of paradise, we should spend in compassion and understanding.
But there could not be understanding without a clear mind aware of causation and the root of unhappiness and suffering. And compassion cannot happen without undressing of all prejudices, all fictitious lies that have been handled to us.
One source of suffering is the confusion between the “persona”, the mask, and the personal identity of oneness. Being a white male is not a hindrance, it has nothing to do with looking at the other as a reflection of ourselves, a mirror of our true nature. So again the question of who is your neighbor cannot shade the real question handled by the Greek philosophy: who is thy yourself?
True knowledge is not inaction. If you want to live with the idea that only cultivating your garden there could be salvation then you must look over the fence of division and separation. Who is the other, why is it worth looking at him?
As the poet said: if you are not for yourself who will stand for you, but if you are not for the others what is the meaning of life?
I agree, the great majority of we humans have empathy or at least a capacity for empathy toward others. For all our imperfections, empathy is part of who we are as humans. Even some species of apes and other animals have been shown to have empathy, with sacrifices to themselves for the sake of other animals or people.
You sound like a Catholic saint:
“Christ has no body but yours,
No hands, no feet on earth but yours,
Yours are the eyes with which He looks
Compassion on this world,
Yours are the feet with which He walks to do good,
Yours are the hands, with which He blesses all the world.
Yours are the hands, yours are the feet,
Yours are the eyes, you are His body.
Christ has no body now but yours,
No hands, no feet on earth but yours,
Yours are the eyes with which he looks
compassion on this world.
Christ has no body now on earth but yours.”
— St. Teresa of Ávila (attributed)
“Every man gives his life for what he believes. Every woman gives her life for what she believes. Sometimes people believe in little or nothing, and so they give their lives to little or nothing. One life is all we have, and we live it as we believe in living it…and then it’s gone. … But to surrender who you are and to live without belief is more terrible than dying – even more terrible than dying young.”
― Joan of Arc
“Be who you were created to be, and you will set the world on fire.”
― St. Catherine of Siena
I think you’re right. We can try to use our logic and rationality to figure out why the universe is the way it is – maybe we’re even “wired” by evolution to do that, but at the end of the day the only responses left to us are humility and our ability to care for others. Working to make the world, or our little piece of it, a better place is something that is always available to us, whoever we are. Anger at the way the world is or at the cards we are dealt in life is a legitimate response, but in the end it doesn’t get us anywhere. The universe is not only stranger and more mysterious than we imagine, but perhaps stranger than we *can* imagine. That’s why our only other logical response is to remain humble in the face of the unknown, as you say.
Where is the LOVE IT button on this blog? Right on it, sir!
About six years ago I decided to read the bible through, out loud to my family, cover to cover in a year. The most eye opening undertaking in my life. I’m a bible teacher, and I read controversial books, yours and many others, and I utilize this knowledge, to be real with the bible. With all it’s flaws, we humans have managed, for the most part, in modern times to create a caring, loving religion, that actually can help people become better. Not always, we are still human after all.
I’m not sure the criteria for interaction, but I have had encounters with a “spirit” world, trying to silence my voice. For me it is real, but I think God does not interact with humanity in the manner of popular theology. So how…
Love your God with all your being, and love your neighbor as yourself. Two things of equal importance, God seems to have left us to work it out ourselves, to deal with the diversity and inequality of life, disparities and fortunes alike. We ARE the responible party, we are the ones who have to change, ourselves first, then those around us.
Well said Mr. Ehrman. I’m 47 and have always been a non believer. I grew up a army brat. My family from Waynesville, NC. We lived in Augusta, GA and my dad got stationed to Korea around 1977. So me, my sister, and mom moved to Waynesville where we are from. I remember when my mom was telling me about god and Jesus and how I should believe. I didn’t. I felt like they almost wanted to beat it in me. Not my parents. The rest of my southern Baptist family. They never did but felt like they would turn there back on me if I didn’t. So I pretend to believe to apiece them. I’m a kind person. I will go out of my way to help anyone. My family would not unless it was another Christian family member or a white Christian from there church. I hate there hypocrisy and racist attitudes. You can’t argue with ignorance. Love this blog.
Both the content and the intent – superb.
I could go on a rant how atheists are good people. We’re looking for the greater good in man kind. What’s best for the earth instead of trying to destroy it. Since Christians don’t care about it. They only care about heaven. I wish they would look around instead of hiding in there houses judging everyone. I’m speaking what I see in my own personal experiences. We need change. There beliefs have expired a long time ago. Love life. Love the ones around you. Go out and kill someone with kindness. It’s the best feeling. Love this blog. Peace and happiness.
“But it’s hard to tell an eight-year old girl in Ethiopia, emaciated from starvation and soon to die, that God loves her and is doing the best for her.”
Having traveled a lot, especially to Tanzania where my in-laws live, it was impossible for me to believe in God (at least anything more than what Isaac Newton called a “watchmaker”) after the things I’ve seen there in my visits.
I intentionally saved God’s Problem as the last of your books I read (okay, not Didymus the Blind) because I knew what an impact that book would have on me.
Human beings appear to be the only elements of nature that are capable of caring about human beings. The rest of nature is unaware and indifferent, judging by all the evidence at hand. Of course, our pets care about us. I guess that’s something to consider. If there’s a god in this picture it sure isn’t obvious.
Ahhh, Bart, well said. Thank you.
Prof Ehrman,
My take is that helping others in the name of humanity is a more intrinsic form of motivation towards helping alleviate the plight and suffering of others.
On the other hand and still in relation to the problem of suffering, please allow me draw some parallels between these points as it has become very topical in the wake of the murder of George Floyd and on-going protests in America and the world at large. Quite a number of issues have been revisited or brought to the fore front since the incidence. Some of which have touched on the role of Christianity in relation to Slavery in Africa and other related things that I got to learn for the first time like the Slave Bible, Jesus of Lubeck, Curse of Ham etc.
It will be very much appreciated if you could please comment on this or kindly make a post on the role of Christianity and how it touches on the listed related points?
Yes, my recent posts on suffering have been inspired by the crisis we’re facing with racism in America. Christianity, as you know, has a very mixed and trouble relationship with issues of human justice. As I’ve mentioned before, as one example, the Museum of the Bible claims that it was the Bible that moved our culture away from slavery and the silencing of women; but I’m afraid that’s just not true. The Bible was used extensively and fervently precisely by slave-owners, just as it is used by white supremacists today to justify their hateful views and actions. And to attack women for their innate inferiority. This is by people who claim that they are followers of Jesus and believers in his Holy Word. As an outsider to the Christian community, I find that branch of it disgusting, and think that all of us — Christian and non-Christian — need to fight against it and promote not just individual morality, empathy, love, and justice, but SYSTEMIC morality, empathy, love, and justice. How to *persuade* those who don’t see the problem or don’t care or are very happy being a part of the problem is a matter I wrestle with all the time, both for myself personally and with respect to the blog….
Many thanks Prof Ehrman for your honesty and the heart of care. Your blog also led me to read more on the ‘Doctors without borders’ and the amazing works that they are doing.
Why was Gad given a place in heaven? He was most likely a pagan. – Reading your new book right now. Take your wife out to dinner on my purchase!
Very well written and concur with your feelings. A couple of thoughts. 1) I wish to add *empathy* to the list as a virtue that is lacking. It is difficult at times for us to understand or share the feelings of another. To put ourselves in position of the sufferer is not humanly natural, it needs practice and needs to be taught at a young age. We live in a country where self-aggrandizement is at the forefront of our worth. One of the definitions of Democracy is, ” the practice or principles of social equality”. 2) Human life is strange in some ways. When we are young and strong our cognitive,emotional and compassion is lacking. We offset that with our physical prowess and unthinking care towards the impoverished. Our goal is to make something of ourselves and nothing else matters. In our latter years, physically we deteriorate/decline but our ability in cognitive, emotional and compassionate senses start creeping in. We think more of those less fortunate.We want to help in some ways and yet it always seems insurmountable. Still we want to give something/anything. We yearn to make a difference. We think less of ourselves. Go figure!!!!!
I think the panpsychism theory may have merit. The theory that all matter may possess some level of consciousness. Though I don’t believe consciousness equates to empathy.
The beauty of God’s story given to us through the prophets and apostles, is that we have a Creator that entered into his own creation and suffered as well. Through that suffering, he redeemed his creatures from human sin and the just judgement to follow, which is the reason for human suffering, since the fall. We share in Jesus’ suffering and eventually his glory. The backdrop of the cross is God’s wrath on human sin. Christianity answers a lot of questions and gives REAL HOPE. Not a meaningless existence that some experience Bordeaux and some have no water. I don’t understand people put their faith and hope in fellow humans. It’s blatantly obvious how flawed and awful we are, it’s been that way in all of history. As Ecclesiastes states, there’s nothing new under the sun. I find Mr. Ehrman and many others to be people that are frustrated God doesn’t do things their way. Isaiah was right, “a heart of stone”. Every unbelieving reason is nothing more than suppression of what they know is true. God. If you are frustrated by suffering, you should be equally frustrated with sin. God’s mercy on us creatures is impossible to comprehend.
“I used to think that God was the ultimate care-giver: if things are bad now, he will make them better later. Now I no longer think so. That means if someone is going to be helped, I have to help them. They are my brother or sister. I want to help them. I better help them. If I don’t, there is no other source of help. Why should I?….have feelings and a natural tendency to care for others (virtually all humans do: at least to care for *some* others).”
Mr. Ehrman,
You know very well, that you believe this way as a direct result of Christianity. Christianity shaped the values and morals that have shaped your thinking. The world before Christianity DID NOT care about all the very virtues that you’ve expressed. The very teachings of Christ is so imbedded to your beliefs from being raised in Western civilization. Your Good Samaritan virtues came from Jesus’ teachings. Why you’ve decided to make a living out of discrediting him, I don’t know. Had you not been born after Christianity, do you think you’d have these same beliefs? Highly unlikely, like rural Galileans writing Greek, right? 🙂
Dear Bart,
Re: “A Plea for Humility.” To me, this is a very insightful and well developed “philosophy of life”. I’m sure it must come as a result of facing life head on, with no holds barred, and with a lot of soul searching.
Very inspiring and thought provoking. Thanks.
I’m a doubter from my kindergarten age! My first, probably the only question is this. If God knew that Adam and Eve are going to sin (in Christian view God always knows the future) why did he allow them take the test that they’re going to fail? I’ve asked this question to a number of preachers especially to those skilfully interested in helping me with my poor faith! I’ll tell you what, none of the answers they give are anywhere intelligent enough to the question of why God allowed such a cruel test on his first carefully created beings, to the ones created in his own image??? I’m tempted to type ‘?’ for the rest of the comment!! Going back to our dear preachers/theologians, the unsatisfying answers they give (often vague and totally unrelated to the question), where are they taking the evidence from for their answers? I would say, at the very least if they want to answer this question honestly, there’s no way than to admit that the very first loving act from God was the most cruel, unjust thing that Adam and Eve ever encountered. I think Bart admitted that! And he lost faith for good!
Richard Dawkins implies that compassion for other people evolved as a desire for order within the tribe and runs counter to Darwin.
But added it’s a good counter to Darwin.
Thank you, Bart. I appreciate very much the insights you provide in your books and posts, and even more the posts like this one where you share a personal insight into your own commitment.
I agree with Kierkegaard that the ultimate meaning of New Testament Christianity (love, cf. agape, mercy and loving-kindness) has largely become perverted, that Christianity has often deviated from its original threefold message of grace, humility, and love, and that we must return to these values.
I also agree with Camus that it is possible for humans to act in an ethical and meaningful manner, in a silent and uncaring universe, by rebelling against injustice and oppression to try to change the world, while not causing any unjustifiable suffering.
These are big challenges – your post this week has provided encouragement in trying to meet them practically every day. Thanks again.
“We’re all going to die, all of us, what a circus! That alone should make us love each other but it doesn’t. We are terrorized and flattened by trivialities, we are eaten up by nothing.” — Charles Bukowski
I’ve never found an explanation for this prerequisite that god should have anything to do with our suffering or lack thereof. It’s quite clear from weighing historical evidence why anyone would leave “the faith.” However, it’s repeatedly cited that suffering was the final question when it came to this departure. It seems to me the more correct way to explain this is to say that because your expectations of god weren’t met, you left the faith. Ultimately, it’s unclear to me where anyone gets enough information to define god then subsequently deny god’s existence based solely on this unverifiable definition. Where does it say god is supposed to relieve suffering or intervene? Where does it say he is faultless or perfect? Isn’t it more accurate to say you became agnostic/atheist due to an illumintaion from scholarly research? And this suffering businesses is just a criticism of a particular quality you personally placed on a god you had enough evidence never to believe in anyway?
The entire point of the Bible, I would argue, is precisely that God is active in the world and deeply committed to helping those who are faithful to him. My point is I see zero reason to think so.
Accept for a minute that God DOES exist and He IS love as the Bible states. From His perspective, why would He create a physical realm? Obviously it is to do something He could not do in the spiritual realm. That most likely would be to give us the ability to love.
Love cannot be forced. It must be freely given. He could not create us already loving as that would be a contradiction. We learn to love by our complete free will selection of good over evil, but we must have the freedom to do any and all evil. We likewise learn it through our personal experiences of pain, suffering and death in ourselves or a member of our social circle. This teaches us compassion and sympathy for others experiencing the same thing. Compassion and sympathy teaches us to care about those outside of our social circle. Caring about others leads to true selfless love of all.
But IF the spiritual realm, not the physical, is our true nature then no matter the depth of our suffering here no one has ever truly suffered or died.
Yes, if you set up a hypothetical it is certainly possible to draw conclusions from it.
Sorry, but that was a dodge. IF God does exist then what I said explains a possible reason for evil, pain and suffering. If God does exist does it not give us a far deeper meaning to our lives than our being merely products of evolution which have no reason to live other than to eat, defecate and make love? The fact that our suffering has a meaning in teaching us how to love gives us forbearance in enduring it. Look at how many wounded warriors found meaning to their own wounds by tending to the wounds of their fellow soldiers. You said that the reason why you no longer believed in God was His seemingly indifference to pain and suffering. Your approach is putting the events of the physical realm as the most important. I believe that the physical realm is a classroom where we can learn the lesson of love. Does this not give a reason for the existence of pain and suffering? Can you see how because of it that the suffering endured by Christ is a lesson to all of us the great importance it plays?
It’s not a dodge. IF you want to hypothesize that god exists, then you can make him into any kind of being you want, and then when you draw your conclusions, you have drawn them from the picture that you yourself have already painted. Would you grant my premise if I said “*If* God exists then it is easy to explain why there is so much suffering in the world because he would be evil and out to hurt us; and the reason he deosn’t hurt more of us is because he’s not all that concerned, he just does so when he’s in the mood.” See what I mean? If you say “IF” there is a god that doesn’t tell us anything about what he would be like. Sorry if it seems like a dodge, but I mean it as a very serious point.
Such is the reason why we would need divine revelation of God which came through an ability outside of ourselves. In which I believe has taken place.
Bart, sorry, but that also was a dodge because it does not approach the substance of the point which I made. You said that the issue of pain, suffering and evil, for which you saw no logical reason to exist if God is in fact loving and caring was what drove you away from faith. I presented a logical reason. That they exist because God is love and wants us also to be one with Him in that love. But it would be impossible for Him to make us loving because love is not love unless it is freely given. This is not a restriction on the power of God but rather would be a contradiction. My point that without evil there can be no good, hence our unfettered access to any and all evil, and pain and suffering lead us to the caring which you speak about and thus leads us towards selfless love. But that is here, in our “fake” existence. In our true spiritual nature noone has ever suffered or died. It gives meaning and purpose to the suffering which we all endure no matter how severe.
OK, let me be completely frank then. I don’t think your reason works. Do you really think that God allows and / or causes millions of children to undergo the torture of slow starvation, day after day, until their internal organs fail and they die in complete agony, all the time, every day, all over the world so that the rest of us can experience “the good” (impossible without evil) and enjoy our lives. Really? What kind of monster God would that be? It may be easy for you to say that no one suffers. I think that’s a flat-out refusal to face brutal reality and is a slur on the character of the God you are claiming to believe in. You wanted my honest opinion, and that’s what it is!
Bart, I seem to have touched a nerve because the tone of your reply was filled with anger rather than logic. You still did not address the point I made other than to again emphasis your centeredness on the reality of the physical realm. Even science today is often stating that reality isn’t real. Einstein said “Reality is an illusion, albeit a convincing one.” But if the spiritual reality (also hinted at by science when they speak of other dimensions and universes) is our true nature then my explanation could answer your “insolvable” problem of the existence of evil and suffering. Yes, suffering exists in the physical reality but for a purpose. We cannot clearly see it while we are experiencing it but it is a part of everyone’s life. The lesson of love which is teaches is vital for us to learn and I can think of no other way that we could learn it. Can you? The old adage of focusing on the big picture is apt. It is ALL about love. The physical is a temporary classroom.
Yes, I do get angry when people deny the very real suffering of others.
The truth is that God has provided a creation in which there is an abundance of food and water for everyone. Humans are naturally evil and care only about their own preservation and abundance. The Bible clearly tells us that innocent people suffer because of the wicked.
God does not always intervene as we would suggest he does. Thankfully, justice lies ahead for all of mankind. In a secular worldview, there’s no meaning or purpose to these things,
and no justice ahead. Sad.
Think about this theory. The universe exploded from nothing, for no reason at all, this rock we live on happened to have plant bearing seeds of all kinds in the earth, the atmosphere produced water, wind, and the sun was there. All absolutely necessary to make a plant grow. It came by randomness, dumb luck. I simply don’t have enough faith to believe something like that. Where’s the tin foil hats…
I think your anger is towards yourself. You are an intelligent man so I am certain that you can see my point. Yet you try to make it about me… that I am denying the suffering of others… rather than acknowledge that if what I said is true then it does give a reason and purpose for the existence of evil and suffering in the physical realm. You avoid the substance of what I suggested like it was a plague and instead focus on the very real suffering we all experience in the physical realm. The fact is that the greater the suffering which we experience the more it stirs people to compassion, sympathy and action which lead towards love. I know you have a lot invested in your position and certainly do not want to give it up. But it seems to me that although you do see my point you are unwilling to allow it to change the life with which you have grown comfortable. God is very real. I have had way too many experiences to deny that. I think you know that too.
My view is that you shouldn’t psychoanalyze someone you’ve never met. And you probably shouldn’t psychoanalyze some you have! I’m afraid you don’t know the first thing about me.
True, and I apologize for that. I was just typing what I was feeling at the time. But I am sure you understand the point I was making but still are avoiding the substance of it. From the point of view that our spiritual nature is our true nature then the physical exists as a means for us to learn to love through the rejection of evil and the experience of pain, suffering and death which teach us in succession compassion, sympathy, caring and love. Can you address that? Can you also see that if this is the case then it would be needed for God to be largely absent from this process so as to make our decision to reject evil and do good, as well as to allow our own suffering to transform us to care about others whom are also suffering a completely free choice on our part? In the physical realm it becomes OUR responsibility to assist those in need and in suffering. This was the essence of the message of Christ. Far too many make money by act which result in the suffering of others.
Bart, you noted above “My view is that the universe we inhabit is not caring and it is not conscious. It does not want the best for us.” A basic premise of all the world’s religions is that god is “good”, and expects us to be “good”. But, even the christian god is completely “revealed” by…nature (Romans 1:19-20). And what we see in nature, from the microscopic to the largest of living beings, is great violence at work, always.
Our only “evidence” of a “good god” expecting “good” from us comes from man-made constructs called religion. Contrarily, we have great evidence in nature, that life, for a virus or a tree or a whale, is thoroughly based on a (violent) cycle of death and regeneration. Every molecule of my body (and that of every living plant or animal) has been through countless destructive and regenerative processes. We live we die we decay, we nourish plants and other animals who live die decay etc. So, for whatever god there may be, his revealed nature seems…infinitely violent. So, we should do good…because it’s good to do, treat others the way we want to be treated. And hopefully others will do the same.
This is a great description of an ironic feeling some of us can get when moving away from a more rigid theology/background. You somehow lose the solid ground of pat answers you thought you were standing on, and become more compassionate and impressed with those who are compassionate (religious or not). I’m a little late to the game on this, but within the last year I saw PBS tell the story of Carl Sagan’s request for the “Pale Blue Dot” image from Voyager. What a humbling image.
Great post. I think Darwin lost his faith because he could not understand why God would allow microorganisms to blind children.
Dr Ehrman,
This is technically a historical question, when you think about it.
Do you believe that life evolved via purposeless and guided processes and that all that exists is the material world?
Yes, absolutely.
It takes a lot more faith to believe that than a theist worldview. Do you realize that Darwin was an extreme racist? Do you think liberals will be consistent and tear down Darwin’s statues across the world? From your worldview, shouldn’t COVID-19 be celebrated?
You have very strange views about my worldview. And as to understanding the universe, yes, I suppose the laws of thermodynamics require faith, but, well, not really so much.
Have you ever pondered how noticeably different human beings are than any other part of creation? Nothing else sits around and ponders or has an inward emotion about the suffering and pain throughout creation and it’s brokenness. The only reasonable explanation for that is the fact we’re created in the imago Dei. The reason I brought those assertions earlier, is because it’s levitate questions that share your similar worldview.
Are you serious? Have I ever pondered the big questions???
If that indeed is the only reasonable answer, then most of the smartest people on our planet (say, astrophycists) are pretty stupid. You may disagree with them, but unless you really understand what scientists think, say, and know, AND WHY, it’s not very helpful to say their views are not reasonable.
Scientists are wrong A LOT. Look at our current crisis. Their conclusions are about as concrete as quick sand. I can’t remember any scientist using the scientific method to explain the obvious difference between human beings and everything else in God’s creation. Darwin was an extreme racist, that’s factual by his own philosophical views on race. The guy was deeply troubled. Why would you bet your eternity on a flawed human being? His theory has more whole’s in it than Swiss cheese. Scientists can’t use the scientific method to observe the supernatural. God is spirit.
I have a genuine question: Have you read the writings of scientists or are you relying on what other people have *told* you about science? When I had the kinds of views you describe, that was my basis — other evangelicals told me about the theory of evolution or the big bang or whatever, and I thought they simply were telling me the truth about them. Let me tell you from experience: it *really* helps to read what scientists say and see why they say it before deciding that they must be wrong.
Oh I forgot one very important thing. The top scientist in our great country believes what Christians believe. Francis Collins, the director of NIH is a born again Christian. Pretty much the top job in the world, related to science.
Do you share his views on evolution?
I am reading your book about Peter, Paul, and Mary. Let me remind you, what you wrote. People can’t be objective. It’s not in their nature. “And the person observing and describing it will always have beliefs, perspectives, worldview, loves, hates, likes, dislikes, biases, tendencies, and a range of other things that makes humans human.” Darwin and secular science are not excluded. You wouldn’t have believed them had you not already committed apostasy. Deep down, they help you suppress the truth of the Gospel. Francis Collins is a creationist. Many creationists believe in the Swiss cheese theory of evolution as well. Scientists are like doctors, not always reliable. As evidenced by our current crisis. But the Word of the Lord is solid ground.
I listened to your presentation from the Defenders conference. I don’t think you apply the same logic, reasoning, and rationality, you claim led to your apostasy, as you do when considering the extreme unlikeliness that all the processes in the universe came through a cosmic accident. Purposeless, unguided, no justice ahead for anyone for their transgressions in life. As Paul said in Romans, mankind suppresses the truth, God have us all a conscience and ability to know him by the creation. Most likely, your secular humanist naturalistic views are what comfort your suppression. They’re not actually a result of the same reasoning, logic, and method you used to walk away from the Lord.
Something has happened in my life that will forever alter my future. I expect my life will be a question going forward of just surviving, Truly, I have lost the will to live. I have made the decision to try and spend it as best I can in helping other people. Many people lose their faith in lieu of human suffering. But I have turned to God after many years of indifference. Agnostic or atheist, I could have been defined as either, I really was indifferent. My personal belief is that God does not interfere in our lives in this world but we will be judged for our actions in this life upon our death. If God gave us free will, why would He interfere in what man creates?
Well said sir. I’m a 56 yrs old male who just had to wipe a few tears reading your heartfelt point of view. Request for evidence not needed here. You see it or you don’t. You reminded me of the answer Jesus gave to the religious zeal he saw around him sometimes, calling them ‘workers’ of iniquity. Down to earth honesty and the long and hard quest for equity is what it’s all about. Thanks for sharing & caring.