Forget about the attacks on BDE and the proudly worn antisemitism. This is amusing. 

Judith is presumably a native speaker, and not one prone to typos. The line he quotes is grammatically perfect, if somewhat more complex than "see spot run."

Dan, on the other hand, is obviously not a native speaker. 

Why does he feel the need to attack her perfectly good English?

Biblical Truths with Professor Dale Martin

Dan if you get something wrong so fundamental, so easy to check, how am I supposed to take you seriously?  

And I don’t care who Robert is and what he does...

Well let me introduce you.  Robert is the moderator of this forum.  He is normally swift of foot and gentle of hand until of course he is forced to become a bouncer in this here digital forum.   Fortunately it doesn't happen often but occasionally, sadly, it does happen.  

...but I’m getting the feeling that you’re not here for an open discussion, you’re here to get validation in an echo chamber. You’re in a cult.

Yes if you read any past conversations you'll see immediately that everyone here is anxious to agree with even my slightest notion.   

...but I understand that you believe professor Ehrman teaches you and you learn about things that puzzled you about religion and church. You must be very naive. Ehrman doesn’t do nor history nor literature. What he does he peddles a satanic product that has more in common with a cult rather than a scholar doctrine. He evangelize, not teach. He brainwashes you with the woke ideology, that includes self-guilt, self-hate, atheism, nihilism and depression. As soon as you will see at least a dozen of his tricks and lies, you will understand everything what he does. 

And of course you're here to set us all straight.  

Stephen said
Oh Dan it's sad to watch someone open their mouth, insert cocked pistol, blow one's own head off.  The fact that you don't know that Dale Martin identified as a Christian shows you don't really pay attention.  And satanists?  I know some.  You missed it my friend.  
I don't imagine Robert will be very patient with you.  Sorry. 
  

Not sure why would you make suicidal analogies, you must be suffering. 
Dale Martin identified as an Atheist or at least he speaks as an Atheist; what you confuse is probably that he, in many numerous occasions, he expressed a tolerant view of Christianity and even suggested to teach or help others to teach in a religious way not a secular way. But he remains an Atheist.

Yes, satanists. I am basing my name calling over an extensive study and research on my own. This is my opinion, this is my worldview. And I don't care who Robert is and what he does, but I'm getting the feeling that you're not here for an open discussion, you're here to get validation in an echo chamber. You're in a cult.

Judith said
dansanta2003, with time you may come to value all Professor Ehrman represents for those of us believers who at one time became concerned over the many questions church, Sunday school and Bible study classes had brought about. Here we can learn what all ministers know but dare not reveal for fear of causing a loss of faith among the congregation.
  

I barely passed through your broken English, but I understand that you believe professor Ehrman teaches you and you learn about things that puzzled you about religion and church. You must be very naive. Ehrman doesn't do nor history nor literature. What he does he peddles a satanic product that has more in common with a cult rather than a scholar doctrine. He evangelize, not teach. He brainwashes you with the woke ideology, that includes self-guilt, self-hate, atheism, nihilism and depression. As soon as you will see at least a dozen of his tricks and lies, you will understand everything what he does.

2380 said
Dan has problems.
  

this quote must come from a very sane mental person.

Robert said
Your wish is my command, Stephanus (now I know why you're studying Latin).
  

I thank you.  If Eric comes back hopefully he won't be scandalized.   

My Mother always told me that I was named after Stephen, the first martyr.  Not sure what to make of that.  She would publicly correct anyone who attempted to spell it Steven so it definitely had some significance for her.  I never took umbrage but I do like the older spelling.   Interestingly every non-American I've ever met assumed it was pronounced Stef-ahn.   I like that too.   

But since by the time of Jesus, Judaism had already thoroughly imbibed Ancient Near Eastern traditions, I’ll be interested to see what chain of transmission Dr Baker detects from the ANE to Christianity that bypassed Judaism. 

Glad that we are now at the point where we are acknowledging that Mesopotamian traditions had been thoroughly imdrankened by Judaism by the time of Jesus. 

Stephen said:

I’ll be interested to see what chain of transmission Dr Baker detects from the ANE to Christianity that bypassed Judaism.

Drawing on a formidable range of primary sources, Baker's conclusions challenge the widely held opinion that the theological imprint on the New Testament by Babylonia and Assyria was minimal, and what Mesopotamian legacy it contains was mediated by the Hebrew Bible and ancient Jewish sources. After evaluating and substantially supplementing previous research on this mediation, Baker demonstrates significant direct Mesopotamian influence on the presentation of Jesus and particularly the character of his kingship. He also identifies likely channels of transmission.

That's part of the back-cover intro to Mesopotamian Civilization and the Origins of The New Testament.

As far as riddles, codes, and ciphers, Robin (I like to call him Robin) gets into that in this book, too. And the other Scandinavian Assyriologist, Dr. Parpola, goes ham with them. 

I've read about 5 of the 452 pages, so I'll let you know.

The people’s atheist

Testament: Memoir of the Thoughts and Sentiments of Jean Meslier

It's easy for us to feel what's accurately described as "the bravery of being safely out of range".  To boast of the outcome of a war that didn't cost us anything.  Any progress we've made as a species is the result of the efforts of people just like this. 

Thanks for the suggestion.  But since by the time of Jesus, Judaism had already thoroughly imbibed Ancient Near Eastern traditions, I'll be interested to see what chain of transmission Dr Baker detects from the ANE to Christianity that bypassed Judaism.    Also by Christianity does he mean the actual historical Jesus movement or does he mean that these ideas entered later on during Christianity's development in later centuries?  The latter would make more sense as the Jesus movement seems like it had its beginnings as a thoroughly Jewish sect.  

Given my own area of interest however, Prof Baker's other book, Hollow Men, Strange Women: Riddles, Codes and Otherness in the Book of Judges, seems more up my alley.  

At any rate, more books, hooray!

As an early Sumerian myth indicates, the reed is the most potent symbol of authority of all since it materializes the indelible word. In fact, it proved by far the most common means of portraying the god. He is 'Lord of the Stylus', the stylus not only produced the (vertical) wedge, it resembled it, and symbolized the Father of the Gods (Anu) as well as Nabû.

Just as Jesus alone was qualified to read the scroll that was handed to him from the throne (Rev 5:4), 'Nabû had access to secrets that others could not read.' Both divine figures read out the determined destinies and keep the accounts of sin and righteousness.

- Dr. Robin Baker, Mesopotamian Civilization and the Origins of the New Testament, Cambridge University Press, 2022

from Chapter 6, page 282, The Cult of Nabu Compared with NT Presentation of Christ

This is a big book. 452 pages.  Academic citations. Dr. Baker goes into a lot more detail on many matching symbols, but why I chose that quote first, and what interests me the most of course, is that the Crucifixion has the reed. Imo, no Roman soldier is reaching for a weed in dry-ahh Jerusalem on a dry-ahh hill to match a scepter for the purposes of mockery and finding a reed. A 👏 reed 👏only👏grows 👏in 👏swamps 👏.

A non-local plant like a reed appearing in the Cruxifixion narrative would raise some questions, I hope? 

Frequently, in Nabû’s symbolic iconography a tablet or writing board accompanies the wedge/stylus. In her disquisition on the cheirographon of Colossians 2:14, Oliva Blanchette asks, ‘Did [the writer of Colossians] apply the metaphor of the “celestial book” to Our Lord as St. John and other apocalyptic writers seem to have done?’ She considers the text to contain ‘two veiled allusions to the theme of the heavenly writing with Christ as their pivotal point.’ If she is right, then the image of a written document symbolizes Jesus as well as Nabû. In anthropomorphic form, the latter is depicted holding a tablet and a stylus, recalling the kind of imagery that Revelation applies to Jesus. Wilder described Jesus in terms that epitomize Nabû: ‘prophet, sage, and scribe.’ Thus, the parallels between the two divine figures, based on their roles as son, crown prince/king, recorder of sins and salvation, custodian of heavenly writings and judge of humankind, are multifarious.

Four other substantial parallels exist between Christ and Nabû, namely, subduer of the infernal sea, vizier of the divine sovereign and yet co-ruler with him of the universe, the personification and source of wisdom, and the divine bridegroom. To varying degrees, these four likewise have biblical antecedents but, set in the context of the other qualities the Babylonian deity shares with Jesus, the similitude of Jesus and Nabû cannot be dismissed.

Then Dr. Baker goes into the Mandaean weigh-in, which is surprisingly nuanced — some aspects of Nabu are disparaged and some praised. Particularly interesting to me is Nabu's epithet in Mandaeanism as the "Lord of Love"! Remember how I had found another Assyriologist who claimed that the name Enki[g] could work out to the "Lord of Love/Benevolence" in my earlier comment in this thread?

As Nabu is Enki's grandson, I think it could be an inheritable title.

I don't imagine Robert will be very patient with you.  Sorry. 

ericfeinberg28 said

Professor Dale Martin

Dale Martin is an Atheistic Anglo-Saxon Homosexual Texan man. Sure, these characteristics don't really matter and we should treat one's work detached of who he is, but do they do the same? In fact, these kind of scholars are doing the exact same to Jesus: making him a historical person and present his ethnic background (he's a Jew) and his education (illiterate) and culture (peasant). But Jesus was arguably a very educated middle-class or even rich Israelite, not a Jew, but they do present him so in order to tarnish him. Thus, the "work" of people like Dale Martin is easy and justified to be seen from this point of view, of who he is, and read the next paragraph to see who he is.

core tenets of the religion are historically false, internally contradictory, shaped by later church fathers, and unlikely to reflect what Jesus himself held — yet who still sincerely identify as Christians.

Correct. If you study how I studied you'll reach to the same conclusion that I did, and that is that these people are satanists. They want to destroy Christianity and Christians, and Christians themselves are mostly European people. They do so while trying to grab their audience money as well. These are not real scholars that talk about history; they are more like cult leaders, evangelists, that preach against Christianity and pro a woke cult of self-guilt, Jew worship, liberalism, communism, nihilism and so on. Simply put, satanism.

relocating its "truth" to the good it does for the community that practices it.

yes, but that's just another trick that they use for financial gains. They grab donations from their followers. Bart for instance says all the donations from the blog goes to charity, to "help" people, because that was Jesus all about. Usually the audience is consisting of older boomers that are decrepit and have declining intellectual facilities or are just low IQ Protestant people, both of which are well off and can chip in lots of money, thinking they are doing "good".

Paul believed Christ physically rose; it wasn't a metaphor to him, nor is it to most Christians today.

This is incorrect and you have been mislead by them. It's not just Paul, it's literally every body, including some books of the Older Testament that are speaking about this, or other books from that time, before Jesus, like the Qumran scrolls. The bodily resurrection was an idea already existing before Jesus and actually, for Jesus to fulfill the older tradition, had to be resurrected in body, not just soul. For ancient Jews, the human is just the physical body; the "living being" is the human + the soul, but the soul is just God's property, his breath. When people die, they just go into the earth (the soul goes back go God) - the body is the one preserving the memories and ambitions of the man, not the soul. Otherwise, according to a more modern idea, like the Greek ideas, the soul was sufficient for eternal life after death, body doesn't matter at all. But the body had to be included too. It's not just Paul. Read the Scriptures. With an AI it's easy to find what you need.

even deceptive, [...] conflates social function with truth.

They reduce everything to earthly matters. They make Jesus just a man. God's commandments just for materialistic dealings. Money, property inheritance, political power, sacrifice for butchering meat etc. They make Jesus a failed prophet and his followers fanatics that truly believed in him, but they were mislead.

Why am I wrong to find something deeply disingenuous in this brand of Christianity?

No. The bubble burst already a long time ago, we just woke up later. I expect that with plummeting levels of trust, in the aftermath of the Covid business, as well with internet exposing famous people and making ideas viral through memes, even the rising levels of antisemitism, people will start seeing better and much more that we perceived before. We're literally living the conspiracy theories that vehiculated 10 years ago. I don't have time to read through the entire forum not even through this thread, but I had enough of this a while ago, so I started a blog where I debunk and expose Bart Ehrman and maybe more like him. Dale Martin for instance seems to be more decent, but he peddles the same agenda-ideas, he could be just naive. It's "against heresies 5 dot wordpress dot com", but the articles are lengthy, I think it's better to make videos but who has time?