Bruce, I would be glad to talk about my position one day, but I don’t think that is the right place to start. I would rather not begin with the different negative pictures of the afterlife, eternal torment, annihilation, or whatever else. I think we first need to ask what judgment is actually an answer to...

Thanks for the response.

P.S. I sometimes wonder whether many in this house are more like the sheep that got lost along the way, for reasons that were real and serious, than like the younger son who consciously walked away from home.

Your P.S. brings up several things that seem worth discussing.  However, doing so here would only take away from the topic at hand. Let me me know if you'd be interested in talking with me (and others) about it. If so, I'll create a new thread.

Tjalling said:

David, I think I’ve reached the point where this exchange is becoming too one-sided for me. I’ve tried to answer your questions at some length, explain what I mean, and show where I am uncertain. What tends to come back is another series of very short questions. I don’t think I can keep doing that indefinitely.

Tjalling, if you're not aware, as the ** you do not have permission to see this link ** you can request posts be removed that you don't think are contributing to the discussion.

“judgment” from NIV NT
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Matthew 5:21
“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’

Matthew 5:22
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment.
Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court.
And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Matthew 10:15
Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

Matthew 11:22
But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you.

Matthew 11:24
But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”

Matthew 12:36
But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken.

Matthew 12:41
The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it;
for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here.

Matthew 12:42
The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it;
for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon’s wisdom, and now something greater than Solomon is here.

John 5:22
Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son,

John 5:30
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

John 8:15
You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one.

John 8:26
“I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is trustworthy, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.”

John 9:39
Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.”

John 12:31
Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.

John 16:8
When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment:

John 16:11
and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

Acts 15:19
“It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.

Acts 18:12
While Gallio was proconsul of Achaia, the Jews of Corinth made a united attack on Paul and brought him to the place of judgment.

Acts 24:25
As Paul talked about righteousness, self-control and the judgment to come, Felix was afraid and said,
“That’s enough for now! You may leave. When I find it convenient, I will send for you.”

Romans 2:1
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

Romans 2:2
Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth.

Romans 2:3
So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment?

Romans 2:5
But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

Romans 5:16
Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin:
The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 11:33
Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!

Romans 12:3
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you:
Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought,
but rather think of yourself with sober judgment,
in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.

Romans 13:2
Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

Romans 14:10
You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister?
Or why do you treat them with contempt?
For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat.

Romans 14:13
Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another.
Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister.

1 Corinthians 2:15
The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments,

1 Corinthians 5:3
For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit.
As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this.

1 Corinthians 6:1
If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people?

1 Corinthians 7:25
Now about virgins: I have no command from the Lord,
but I give a judgment as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy.

1 Corinthians 7:40
In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is—and I think that I too have the Spirit of God.

1 Corinthians 9:3
This is my defense to those who sit in judgment on me.

1 Corinthians 11:29
For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.

1 Corinthians 11:31
But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment.

1 Corinthians 11:34
Anyone who is hungry should eat something at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment.
And when I come I will give further directions.

1 Corinthians 14:24
But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all,

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

2 Corinthians 8:10
And here is my judgment about what is best for you in this matter.
Last year you were the first not only to give but also to have the desire to do so.

2 Thessalonians 1:5
All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.

1 Timothy 3:6
He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil.

1 Timothy 5:12
Thus they bring judgment on themselves, because they have broken their first pledge.

1 Timothy 5:24
The sins of some are obvious, reaching the place of judgment ahead of them;
the sins of others trail behind them.

Hebrews 6:2
instruction about cleansing rites, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.

Hebrews 9:27
Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

Hebrews 10:27
but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

James 2:13
because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful.
Mercy triumphs over judgment.

James 4:11
Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another.
Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it.
When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it.

1 Peter 4:17
For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household;
and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,
putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

2 Peter 2:9
if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.

2 Peter 2:11
yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from the Lord.

2 Peter 3:7
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

1 John 4:17
This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment:
In this world we are like Jesus.

Jude 1:6
And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

Revelation 14:7
He said in a loud voice,
“Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come.
Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

Revelation 16:5
Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say:
“You are just in these judgments, O Holy One, you who are and who were;

Revelation 16:7
And I heard the altar respond:
“Yes, Lord God Almighty, true and just are your judgments.”

Revelation 18:20
“Rejoice over her, you heavens!
Rejoice, you people of God!
Rejoice, apostles and prophets!
For God has judged her with the judgment she imposed on you.”

Revelation 19:2
for true and just are his judgments.
He has condemned the great prostitute who corrupted the earth by her adulteries.
He has avenged on her the blood of his servants.”

I've said what I wanted to say about judgment, hope, and why I don't want to claim more about the final outcome than I think I know. I think I've said enough for now.

"why do I"
Beats me.
As you may recall, I'm allergic to "why."

"I would rather let both sets of texts trouble me"
"Sets of texts" such as what "sets of texts"?

"I can hope for all, but I cannot say that I know all will be saved"
Do you "know" that you "will be saved"?

"Hell... neither do I think I have been given a view from which I can declare it empty"
Hell wasn't empty as of 20 years ago.

My answer is that I don't want to limit the hope. I can hope that God's seeking love reaches people and places I cannot see. What I cannot do is turn that hope into knowledge that no one can finally be lost. That is not because I think God's love stops at the perpetrator. I don't. Nor do I think judgment has to be punishment for punishment's sake. But neither of those things tells me that final judgment must be remedial, or that correction necessarily continues until every person is restored.

And 1 Corinthians 15:22 matters enormously to me. So do the other texts with a universal reach. But Jesus also speaks with extraordinary seriousness about judgment, exclusion and loss, and Bart, having set eternal conscious torment aside, still takes those warnings seriously in his reconstruction, rightly I think. Those warnings do not disappear once eternal conscious torment is gone. But I do not know that I am entitled to read them as necessarily temporary. That would come too close, for me, to deciding beforehand what the outcome must be. I would rather let both sets of texts trouble me.

So I think I can hope for all, but I cannot say that I know all will be saved. Hell has no grandstand from which I can point at other people, but neither do I think I have been given a view from which I can declare it empty.

What gives me hope is not a theory that guarantees the outcome. It is the God I meet in Luke 15, and the Christian claim that Christ himself entered even the darkness we are talking about. That does not tell me who is finally lost, or allow me to declare that no one is. But it changes where I look. I do not first look for other people to put there. I look at Christ.

That is why I wrote that my hope is not the guarantee that no one is lost. It is the hope that the God who seeks reaches further than I can see.

If that is roughly the question your questions have been moving toward, then that is my answer.

"There I do not want to begin with the discipline of a son who is already loved, but with the evil that has been done, the injustice that would otherwise have the last word, and the suffering that cries out to be answered"
Are perpetrators of "suffering that cries out to be answered" themselves loved?

"1 Corinthians 15:22... the disagreement... is about what “all” in the second half means in context. That has long been read in more than one way"
What are some of those ways?

"Setting those readings against each other would simply reopen the universalism debate, and that is the debate I have said a few times now I would rather not open in this thread"
Oh.
Anybody reading my questions is welcome to answer whichever of them he or she wishes to.

"I am trying to keep that prior question in view: what is judgment an answer to?"
I imagine that different judgments "answer" different things.

"on his own reconstruction there is still judgment, exclusion, and irreversible loss"
What specific statement(s) are you looking at?

Proverbs 3 speaks about discipline, musar, the correction of a child who is being formed. That is not quite the same as judgment. And it puts discipline in a frame far removed from punishment for its own sake, which I value. But the question I was asking is a step before both: what is judgment an answer to? There I do not want to begin with the discipline of a son who is already loved, but with the evil that has been done, the injustice that would otherwise have the last word, and the suffering that cries out to be answered. That is the question I want to keep in view first. What the purpose of judgment then is, and how far correction reaches, is a further question, and one I would rather not fold into this one just yet.

And 1 Corinthians 15:22 is a text I hold dear. I see the universalist reading you are pointing toward. But of course the disagreement in the wider discussion is not with the verse. It is about what "all" in the second half means in context. That has long been read in more than one way, and conditionalists as well as defenders of eternal conscious torment do not take it as establishing universal salvation. Setting those readings against each other would simply reopen the universalism debate, and that is the debate I have said a few times now I would rather not open in this thread. Not because I have no view, and not because the text does not matter, but because I am trying to keep that prior question in view: what is judgment an answer to? I would rather stay there for now.

What I have been trying to do since the start of this thread is point to a real reason to take this life, and what lies beyond it, seriously. That reason was in Bart's lecture itself, in Jesus' own words: on his own reconstruction there is still judgment, exclusion, and irreversible loss. What I hesitated over, and where I push back, is the closing. Not because Bart is wrong to reject eternal conscious torment. I think he is right about that. But the ending, "it doesn't make sense, it almost certainly is not true," could leave a listener hearing something broader: that there is simply nothing to fear. That would be a wider conclusion than his own reconstruction supports, because within it judgment and loss remain.

So I am not pushing back to defend a torture chamber. I am pushing back to keep in view something I find real: that there is something between God and us that cannot simply be waved away. We are not forced. But we are sought, and awaited. That is the thread I have wanted to keep running through this discussion from the start, and it is why I keep steering away from settling the afterlife maps.

1 Corinthians 15:22 (NIV)
For as in Adam all die,
so in Christ all will be made alive.

Proverbs 3 (NIV)
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11 My son, do not despise the Lord’s discipline,
and do not resent his rebuke,
12 because the Lord disciplines those he loves,
as a father the son he delights in.

R.H. Charles, _Immortality_ (1912)

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For me that begins with Luke 15. Even the opening matters: "the tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to hear him," followed by the complaint that Jesus "receives sinners and eats with them." Then come the lost sheep, the lost coin and both sons. This chapter reaches me existentially. This is the God I have come to know: the God who seeks what is lost, runs towards the returning son, and rejoices. That is where my hope begins, and it is why I do not want to start with maps of the negative afterlife.

But that same God is also the God of judgment, and I cannot simply remove that from the biblical picture because I find it difficult. I think I have come to see judgment as having two sides that belong together. It is God's "no" to our "no," his refusal of the refusal with which we turn away from life, from one another, and from him. And it is God's refusal to let evil finally be called anything other than evil. What people have done to one another matters. Those who have suffered cruelty, betrayal, violence and injustice matter. Judgment means that evil will be named as evil, and that those who have suffered under it will finally be done justice. I know there are still difficult questions open here.

I recently read two things about the negative side that I find hard to forget. First, hell cannot really be understood on its own. It is the dark reverse of who Christ is: death against his life, the lie against his truth, loneliness against his communion. And second, hell has no grandstand. I do not sell the tickets. I am not given a seat from which to point out who will be there. Yet Christian confession does say something remarkable about that darkness: Christ himself descended into it. That does not tell me who else is there, and it does not allow me to turn hope into a guarantee of universal salvation. But it does mean that when I look toward the darkest possibility Christianity speaks of, I do not first encounter other people whom I can consign to it. I encounter Christ, who has entered even that darkness. I find real comfort and hope in that.

That is why the last part of my opening post matters more to me than deciding first between eternal torment and eternal death. Before drawing maps of the negative afterlife, I want to understand what judgment is for, what hope means in relation to it, and what kind of God it is who judges. And the hope I mean is not the guarantee that no one is lost. It is the hope that the God who seeks reaches further than I can see.

I hope you'll read Luke 15 again today.

P.S. I sometimes wonder whether many in this house are more like the sheep that got lost along the way, for reasons that were real and serious, than like the younger son who consciously walked away from home.

DavidFord said
"offered to examine the arguments for and against it, not to promote or praise it"
Are you aware of any flaws/ problems with universalism?
  

David, I'd rather not answer that right now. Not because I have no position, or because I'm unaware of the problems with universalism, but because I prefer to discuss questions like these in a setting aimed at exploring them together. That isn't the tone I'm getting here, so I'll hold off.

Tjalling said:

I offered to examine the arguments for and against it, not to promote or praise it. I would normally be quite willing to state my own position, but I would prefer to do so in a setting that feels safe enough for careful exploration, rather than one in which that position is immediately framed as something I must celebrate or defend. Your framing makes me more cautious about doing so here.

I'd love to hear your position and reasons for it.  

You mean other than the fact you haven't even  demonstrated that God exists in the first place?