Robert said

Helen Young said

Stephen said
  I remember the line from Kipling:
And what should they know of England who only England know? 

Why didn't they get online and study other places? Then they would understand more about other places and themselves.
And what should they know of any country who only that country know?  

Rudyard Killing lived and died long before Al Gore invented the Internet. 
  

Helen Young said

Stephen said
  I remember the line from Kipling:
And what should they know of England who only England know? 

Why didn't they get online and study other places? Then they would understand more about other places and themselves.
And what should they know of any country who only that country know?  

Rudyard Killing lived and died long before Al Gore invented the Internet. 

Serene said

Helen Young said
I don't care what the ancients thought, or what the moderns think, I still really do believe there is nothing to fear in God.
If it involves fear, it's not God. -- & I'm willing to stand alone in this
  

💃 Go Helen, Go Helen
  

Love it! 

Thanks, Serene 🙂 

Looks like I'm not standing alone after all. 🙂 

Helen Young said
I don't care what the ancients thought, or what the moderns think, I still really do believe there is nothing to fear in God.
If it involves fear, it's not God. -- & I'm willing to stand alone in this
  

💃 Go Helen, Go Helen

In my original hypothesis, the Four Horsemen of Revelation simply map to the four client-king auxiliary contingents conscripted by Rome during the First Jewish-Roman War, as documented by Josephus:

1. White Horse — Malichus II

2. Red Horse — Agrippa II

3. Black Horse — Sohameus

4. Pale Horse — Antiochus IV (Commagene)

There were also a considerable number of auxiliaries got together, that came from the Kings Antiochus and Agrippa, and Sohemus, each of them contributing one thousand footmen that were archers, and a thousand horsemen. Malchus also, the king of Arabia, sent a thousand horsemen, besides five thousand footmen, the greatest part of which were archers..."

— Flavius Josephus, ** you do not have permission to see this link ** 3.4.2 (3.68–69). My bolding.

1, 2, 3, 4 👆

The leaders ride horses.

1. ⚪️🐴 White Horse — Malichus

Notice the verb: "Malchus also, the king of Arabia, sent..." Malichus II did not attend the event like the others. He is also discussed separately from the other three. As there is no precise dating for his passing beyond the general year, it is within possibility that it is his testamentum that authorized his auxiliaries, considering that in 70 CE he had left a woman and a small child on the throne.

Revelation 6:2

I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

Standard Roman legionaries did not wield bows; specialized composite bowmen called sagittarii were supplied by Eastern auxiliaries.

The Ituraean mounted and infantry archers aligned with the Nabataeans were one such group, the** you do not have permission to see this link **:

...at the beginning of the 1st century AD, the Arab populations, namely Nabataeans and Ituraeans, imposed their domination on the regions they occupied at the time. The recruiting of Ituraean archers was attested since the first civil war. Caesar frequently used mounted and infantry archers...

...it being one of the units that took part in the wars against the Judaeans during the rule of Vespasian. The unit was also mentioned by Josephus Flavius as belonging to the auxiliary units of 1,000 infantryman that participated in the campaigns at issue.

— Ţentea, Ovidiu, Cohors I Ituraeorum Sagittariorum Equitata Milliaria. Orbis Antiqvvs: Studia in honorem Ioannis Pisonis, edited by Ligia Ruscu et al., 2004

This profile carries over into the locust cavalry of Revelation 9:7-10

In appearance the locusts were like horses equipped for battle. On their heads were what looked like crowns of gold; their faces were like human faces, ⁸ their hair like women’s hair, and their teeth like lions’ teeth; ⁹ they had scales like iron breastplates, and the noise of their wings was like the noise of many chariots with horses rushing into battle. ¹⁰ They have tails like scorpions, with stingers...

Locust Cavalry Breakdown:

In appearance the locusts

• ** you do not have permission to see this link ** (not the North American insect, but somehow still translated that way) are associated with the desert and Arabs.

were like horses equipped for battle

• Troops on horseback.

On their heads were what looked like crowns of gold

• Eastern archers wore ** you do not have permission to see this link **

their faces were like human faces

 • Because they are human. As it's my hypothesis that Sumero-Akkadian lore influenced the New Testament through the Antiquarian Revival of Seleucid Uruk, the original written designation of human was used to denote " civilized/urbanized" and not everybody, which would inform the "were like." 

their hair like women's hair

• Long hair was the standard Greco-Roman marker for Arab warriors. Pliny the Elder in Natural History 6.32 wrote c. 50 CE, "The Arabs wear turbans or else go with their hair unshorn..." A 2nd C. relief of a** you do not have permission to see this link ** is depicted on a re-used block on the wall of Karnak Castle. 

and their teeth like lion's teeth

• Lions are the typical animal emblem for military royal authority.

they had scales like iron breastplates

• ** you do not have permission to see this link **worn by Eastern auxiliaries.

and the noise of their wings was like the noise of many chariots with horses rushing into battle.

• The wings (pteruges) of an ancient army specifically referred to its flanks or cavalry wings (alae). The sound of galloping horse-archers charging along the flanks of an advancing force created a thunderous roar.

They have tails like scorpions, with stingers

The "scorpion stinger" mimics the famous Parthian shot, where mounted desert archers feigned retreat while shooting low and backward over their horses' rumps. Spears could also work here. 

It is my best guess that this group, activated by the fifth trumpet, would be a tribe within Malichus' confederacy acting as special forces. In more precise language, this might be a response to the FA segment of the** you do not have permission to see this link **, perhaps beginning in 62 CE per Josephus, or in 69 CE as reported by Hegesippus (c. 107-180 CE) and preserved by Eusebius of Caesarea (c. 260–339 CE), before the FO segment.

2. 🔴🐴 Red Horse

Revelation 6:4

Agrippa II was leading Jewish troops against Jewish rebels, ie a civil conflict. 

3. ⚫️ 🐴 Black Horse

Revelation 6:5-7

Sohaemus ruled Emesa (modern Homs, Syria), a major agricultural region famous for vineyards and olive orchards. It is his troops that accompanied the Roman troops in sealing off Samaria and Judea; basic grain prices skyrocketed while cash crops (oil and wine) were preserved for Roman officer supply lines.

4. 🫥🐴 Pale Horse

Revelation 6:8

Antiochus IV commanded Commagene’s elite, heavily armored "Macedonian" shock troops (J.W. 5.460). Josephus recorded that Antiochus’s unit spearheaded the unfortunate, high-casualty assaults.

It's not indistinct as to whose side the Jesus movement was on:

Revelation 6:16

They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!”

Except the koine Greek uses "arnion" throughout, so it's

...the wrath of the little lamb!"

I wonder if anyone made a miniature military costume for the little lamb, just so I could use the word "lambula."

It's interesting to see that the Talmud and various Jewish websites perceive the First-Jewish war as God authorizing corrective actions against Jerusalem, to correct "baseless anger." With  2000 years of perspective, I'm more of an "improve the system, don't blame the people" person.

All copyright me, "I'm confident because I'm right" 2026

Stephen said
  I remember the line from Kipling:
And what should they know of England who only England know?
  

Why didn't they get online and study other places? Then they would understand more about other places and themselves.

And what should they know of any country who only that country know?

Stephen said

I still really do believe there is nothing to fear in God.
Many other people's gods are not quite so benign as yours.   If you wish to encounter a truly psychopathic god read the literature of Calvinism.   
I don’t care what the ancients thought...
Regretful since there is real value in an encounter with other ways of thinking.  I remember the line from Kipling:
And what should they know of England who only England know?
  

I don't care what the ancients thought on this particular subject, about fear being something to do with God or something we should feel or believe in relation to God.

On other subjects, the ancients may be good, fine, or not so good. It depends on what they are talking about. "Ancient" doesn't make a statement right or wrong.

I'm well aware that there are frightful and damming images of "god". I grew up with one. It's not at all missing in the bible either. I just totally disagree with them.

It's nice to live in a free country, ain't it?  😉 

The only links in my previous post were copied and pasted from older posts. The 'copy & paste' function sometimes carries the links and other times not.  You might have to go back to the original posts I copied to respond to.

I still really do believe there is nothing to fear in God.

Many other people's gods are not quite so benign as yours.   If you wish to encounter a truly psychopathic god read the literature of Calvinism.   

I don’t care what the ancients thought...

Regretful since there is real value in an encounter with other ways of thinking.  I remember the line from Kipling:

And what should they know of England who only England know?  

If it involves fear, it's not God. -- & I'm willing to stand alone in this.

-------------------------------------------

Stephen - Your link doesn't work, at least not for me.

Would you believe you are exactly right?! To this day my brother-in-law calls my sister and I Virginia Belles. Reared by a grandmother, we knew to cover our knees when sitting etc. etc. Then, I had sons and stood up to my husband in the way they were brought up. A believer, I wanted God to like my sons. It is the one thing I did right.

Yeech! Let me outa here! 

It made me think about it. Now I don't do that so much anymore.

This all was some long time ago.