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Fuller Reply to Richard Carrier

      Richard Carrier is one of the new breed of mythicists.  He is trained in ancient history and classics, with a PhD from Columbia University – an impressive credential.  In my book Did Jesus Exist I speak of him as a smart scholar with bona fide credentials.   I do, of course, heartily disagree with him on issues relating to the historical Jesus, but I have tried to take his views seriously and to give him the respect he deserves.
      Carrier, as many of you know, has written a scathing review of Did Jesus Exist on his Freethought Blog.   He indicates that my book is “full of errors,” that it “misinforms more than it informs” that it provides “false information” that it is “worse than bad” and that “it officially sucks.”   The attacks are sustained throughout his lengthy post, and they often become personal.  He indicates that “Ehrman doesn’t actually know what he is talking about,” he claims that I speak with “absurd” hyperbole, that my argument “makes [me] look irresponsible,” that I am guilty of “sloppy work,” that I “misrepresent” my opponents and “misinform the public,” that what I write is “crap,” that I am guilty of “arrogantly dogmatic and irresponsible thinking,” that I am “incompetent,” make “hack” mistakes, and do not “act like a real scholar.”
      Most of his review represents an attempt to substantiate these claims.   Some readers may find the overblown rhetoric offensive, but I have no interest in engaging in a battle of wits and rhetorical flourishes.  I would simply like to see if the charges of my incompetence can be sustained.
      Let me say at the outset that I am not perfect, that as a full-blooded human being, I do make mistakes, and that nothing I say is an inerrant revelation from above.  I sometimes try to convince my wife otherwise, but, frankly, I’ve made very little headway there.   When I do make mistakes, I am not afraid to admit it.   I don’t *like* admitting it, but my interest really is in discussing what we can know about history, not in proving that I’m always in the right.
      One of the mistakes I make in the book I should state up front, because Carrier found it particularly offensive.  I indicated in the book that Carrier’s degree was in Classics.  I was wrong about that.  His PhD is in Ancient History.   I am not sure where I got the wrong impression he was a classicist; I think when I first heard of him I was told that he worked in ancient history and classics, and the “classics” part just stuck with me, possibly because I have always revered the field.   In any event, I apologize for the mistake.  His degree is in Ancient History, although he is trained as well in classics.
           Contrary to what Carrier suggests, this mistake was not some kind of plot on my part, in his words: “a deliberate attempt to diminish my qualifications by misrepresentation.”   I frankly don’t know why a classicist is less competent to talk about the ancient world of Rome than an ancient historian is, since most Romanists I know are in fact Classicists; and it seems odd that Carrier wants to insist that he is not “just a classicist.”   My classicist friends would probably not appreciate knowing that they were “just” that.  But in any event, it was an honest to goodness mistake, for which I apologize.
      The bulk of Carrier’s harsh critique involves a set of “Errors of Fact” – including one that I have already dealt with in an earlier post, whether a bronze Priapus that is allegedly in the Vatican (but not actually, as one of the posts on this blog shows) was of Peter.  I stated it was not, and Carrier agrees.  He mistakenly thought I was arguing that no such statue existed, but that was not my intention or concern.  I can see how my wording could be (mis)read that way, however.   The other charges against me and my book are more damning – or at least they certainly seem to be on the surface.
      I will not answer each and every single point Carrier raises (on this, see my closing comments), but will deal with the most serious ones in which he charges me with scholarly incompetence.  I am always happy to answer questions about any of the others, should I be asked.

The Pilate Error
      In my book I take the Roman historian Tacitus to task for claiming that Pontius Pilate was a procurator rather than a prefect.   The question has little to do with my overall point – that Tacitus is one of the first Roman authors to refer to Jesus – but Carrier takes great offense at my assertion and indicates that it shows that I do not know what I’m talking about.  According to Carrier, provincial prefects were often also imperial procurators.  He indicates that “recent literature on the subject confirms this, as would any consultation with an expert in Tacitus or Roman imperial administration.”
      I have to admit that I was surprised to see this objection – as I had never heard of this before, that procurators could be prefects.   I am certainly not an expert on Roman imperial magistrates.  But I do try to get my facts straight and work hard to make sure I do not get things like this wrong.   But it was news to me.   So I decided to look into it.   I have acquaintances and colleagues who are among the world’s leading authorities on Roman history.   I emailed one of them the following: 

My question: The New Testament indicates that Pontius Pilate was a procurator; the inscription discovered in Caesarea Maritima indicate that he was a prefect. Is it possible that he could have been both things at once?

His answer was quick and to the point.  I quote:  ‘Not really’ has to be the answer to your question, because prefect and procurator are simply two possible titles for the same job.  The initial growth of equestrian posts in the emperor’s service was a gradual, haphazard process, and there was little concern to fix titles for them [see, e.g., Talbert’s chap. 9 in CAH ed. 2 vol. X].  PP could just as well have had the title procurator, but evidently he didn’t …   PIR (ed. 2, 1998) P 815 sums it up neatly: “praeses Iudaeae ordinis equestris usque ad Claudii tempora non procurator, sed praefectus fuit….”  [This comes from the Prosopographia Imperii Romani (i.e., The Prosopography of the Roman Empire);  I translate the Latin as follows: “Up until the time of Claudius [i.e., 41-54 CE], the provincial governor of Judea, a man of the equestrian order, was not a procurator but a prefect.”].

     That would seem to settle it.  This email acquaintance of mine is an internationally recognized scholar in the field of Roman history, so I trust his judgment.  He asked not to be identified by name, I think because he too does not want to be subject to the kinds of attacks one faces on the Internet no matter what one says and on what grounds or authority.  In any event, I think the quotation from PIR sums it up. 

 

The Tacitus Question
 
      While I’m on the Tacitus reference.   At one point in my book I indicate that “I don’t know of any trained classicists or scholars of ancient Rome who think” that the reference to Jesus in Tacitus is a forgery (p. 55).   Carrier says this is “crap,” “sloppy work,” and “irresponsible,” and indicates that if I had simply checked into the matter, I would see that I’m completely wrong.   As evidence he cites Herbert W. Benario, “Recent Work on Tacitus (1964-68) The Classical World 63.8 (April 1970) pp. 253-66, where several scholars allegedly indicate that the passage is forged.
      In my defense, I need to stress that my comment had to do with what scholars today are saying about the Tacitus quotation.   What I say in the book is that I don’t know of any scholars who think that it is an interpolation, and I don’t.   I don’t know if Carrier knows of any or not; the ones he is referring to were writing fifty years ago, and so far as I know, they have no followers among trained experts today.  In that connection it is surprising that Carrier does not mention Benario’s more recent discussions, published as “Recent Work on Tacitus: 1969-1973,” “Recent Work on Tacitus: 1974-1983,” “Recent Work on Tacitus: 1984-1993,” “Recent Work on Tacitus: 1994-2003.”   Or rather it is not surprising, since the issue appears to have died on the vine (one exception: a brief article in 1974 by L. Rougé).   I might also mention that there is indeed a history of the question that goes before the mid-20th century.  I first became aware of it from one of the early mythicists, Arthur Drews, whose work, The Christ Myth (1909) raises the possibility.  But Drews did not invent the idea; it goes  back at least to the end of the 19th century in the work of P. Hochard in 1890, De l’authenticité des Annales et des Histoires de Tacite.   I’m not sure if Carrier is familiar with this scholarship or not.  But my point is that I was not trying to make a statement about the history of Tacitus scholarship; I was stating what scholars today think.
      But Carrier’s objection to my view did take me a bit off guard and make me wonder whether I was missing something, whether there were in fact scholars of Tacitus who continue to think the reference to Jesus was an interpolation in his writings.   I am a scholar of the New Testament and early Christianity, not of Tacitus!  And so I asked one of the prominent scholars of the Roman world, James Rives, who happens now to teach at UNC.  Anyone who wonders about his credentials can look them up on the web; he’s one of the best known experts on Roman religion (and other things Roman) internationally.    He has given me permission to cite him by name, as he is willing to stand by what he says. 
      My initial email question to him was this:   

I’m wondering if there is any dispute, today, over the passage in Annals 15 where he mentions Jesus (whether there is any dispute over its authenticity).

His initial reply was this:
I’ve never come across any dispute about the authenticity of Ann. 15.44; as far as I’m aware, it’s always been accepted as genuine, although of course there are plenty of disputes over Tacitus’ precise meaning, the source of his information, and the nature of the historical events that lie behind it.  There are some minor textual issues (the spelling ‘Chrestianos’ vs. ‘Christianos’, e.g.), but there’s not much to be done with them since we here, as everywhere in Tacitus’ major works, effectively depend on a single manuscript.

I then asked him about the article Carrier mentioned with respect to Benario, and this was his reply:
Benario’s article cited below is one of a series he did over a period of decades, in which he summarizes other people’s work on Tacitus; they’re an extremely useful bibliographical resource (although there’s no reason that a non-specialist would be aware of them!).  I’ve just checked this particular article, and can only assume that the particular work to which your adversary makes reference is mentioned on p. 264: Charles Saumagne, ‘Tacite et saint Paul’, Revue Historique 232 (1964) 67-110, who according to Benario ‘claims that the Christians are not mentioned in 15.44, that there is an ancient interpolation, taken from book 6 of the Histories, which were written after the Annals, and that Sulpicius Severus was responsible for the transposition’.  So I’m wrong that no classicist has argued that the passage is not authentic.  Saumagne may not be alone: Benario cites another article on the same page whose author ‘recalls that Christians are not linked with the fire before the time of Sulpicius Severus’.  Nevertheless, I would still point out that 1) Saumagne does argue that this is an interpolation, but only from another of Tacitus’ works; 2) the whole thing sounds like a house of cards to me, since Histories Book 6 doesn’t exist and so can’t provide a firm foundation for an argument; 3) this is clearly a minority opinion, since I’ve never encountered it before.

He then pursued the matter further (he’s a *great* colleague!), and wrote me this:

I’ve had a quick look at the two articles in question.  Saumagne does think that the text has been interpolated, but also that the reference to Christ being killed under Pontius Pilate comes from a lost portion of Tacitus’ Histories.  His argument seems very shaky to me, but in either case it doesn’t affect your own, since Saumagne thinks that Tacitus knew about and referred to Jesus, which is the main thing for you.  The other article, by Koestermann (an editor of Tacitus), argues that Tacitus made a mistake in associating the Chrestiani with Christ, but doesn’t say anything about the reference to Christ not having been written by Tacitus himself.  There may be scholars who’ve argued that the reference to Christ is a later interpolation into the text, but neither of these two did, and I certainly don’t know of any others.

I think that’s enough to settle it.  I really don’t think what I said was “irresponsible,” “sloppy,” or “crap.”

The Dying and Rising God:
      In my book I argue that there is very thin evidence indeed for anything like a widespread pagan belief in a dying-rising god, on which Jesus was modeled.  In the context of showing the shortcomings of Freke and Gandy’s book The Jesus Mysteries, I make a passing comment on the Egyptian god Osiris, first by asking a series of questions: “What, for example, is the proof that Osiris was born on December 25 before three shepherds?  Or that he was crucified? And that his death brought atonement for sin?  Or that he returned to life on earth by being raised from the dead?  In fact no ancient source says any such thing about Osiris”
      Carrier does not seem to disagree with most of this statement, but he takes very serious issue indeed with the claim that Osiris was not raised from the dead to return to life on earth.  He indicates that I received this information entirely from an article by Jonathan Z. Smith, and that if I had been “real scholar” I would have looked up the ancient sources themselves.   As it is I made a “hack mistake” showing that I was “incompetent.”  His counter claim is that “Plutarch attests that Osiris was believed to have died and been returned to earth… and that the did indeed return to earth in his resurrected body.”  He gives as his reference Plutarch “On Isis and Osiris,” 19.358b.
      Carrier is wrong on all points.   I did not get this information just from J. Z. Smith (who, by the way, is one of the most eminent and distinguished historians of religion walking the face of the planet, and certainly no hack) and his charge that I have not behaved as a “real scholar” is completely unfounded.  I have read Plutarch’s account of Osiris many times.  For years I used this text in the graduate seminars I taught on Graeco-Roman religion.  In my reading of the myth of Osiris, he does not rise from the dead back to life here on earth.
      One of our principal sources of knowledge of the myth of the gods Isis and Osiris, brother and sister but lovers, is the famous second century pagan philosopher and priest Plutarch.   The myth as Plutarch recounts it is not long; most of his treatise De Iside et Osiride consists of a range of ways people had interpreted the myth, in particularly the various allegorical interpretations.   A convenient translation of the treatise can be found here: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Moralia/Isis_and_Osiris*/
      I do not need to relate all the details of the myth in this context.  Suffice it to say that Osiris is killed by an enemy and hidden away in a chest/coffin that was lost.  Isis finally finds it and mourns the loss of her dead lover.   But (another) enemy finds the body and does something unspeakable.  Here is the passage from Plutarch, in the Babbitt translation of the Loeb Classical Library:

18 As they relate, Isis proceeded to her son Horus, who was being reared in Buto, and bestowed the chest in a place well out of the way; but Typhon, who was hunting by night in the light of the moon, happened upon it. Recognizing the body [of Osiris] he divided it into fourteen parts and scattered them, each in a different place. Isis learned of this and sought for them again, sailing through the swamps in a boat of papyrus. This is the reason why people sailing in such boats are not harmed by the crocodiles, since these creatures in their own way show either their fear or their reverence for the goddess.  The traditional result of Osiris’s dismemberment is that there are many so called tombs of Osiris in Egypt; for Isis held a funeral for each part when she had found it. Others deny this and assert that she caused effigies of him to be made and these she distributed among the several cities, pretending that she was giving them his body, in order that he might receive divine honours in a greater number of cities, and also that, if Typhon should succeed in overpowering Horus, he might despair of ever finding the true tomb when so many were pointed out to him, all of them called the tomb of Osiris. Of the parts of Osiris’s body the only one which Isis did not find was the male member, for the reason that this had been at once tossed into the river, and the lepidotus, the sea-bream, and the pike had fed upon it; and it is from these very fishes the Egyptians are most scrupulous in abstaining. But Isis made a replica of the member to take its place, and consecrated the phallus, in honour of which the Egyptians even at the present day celebrate a festival.  19 Later, as they relate, Osiris came to Horus from the other world and exercised and trained him for the battle.

     In this telling of the myth – the one the Carrier refers to – Osiris’s body does not come back to life.  Quite the contrary, it remains a corpse.  There are debates, in fact, over where it is buried, and different locales want to claim the honor of housing it.   It is true that Osiris “comes back” to earth to work with his son Horus:  ἔπειτα τῷ Ὥρῳ τὸν Ὄσιριν ἐξ Ἅιδου παραγενόμενον.   Literally, he came “from Hades.”  But this is not a resurrection of his body.  His body is still dead.  He himself is down in Hades, and can come back up to make an appearance on earth on occasion.  This is not like Jesus coming back from the dead, in his body; it is like Samuel in the story of the Witch of Endor, where King Saul brings his shade back to the world of the living temporarily (1 Samuel 28).   How do we know Osiris is not raised physically?  His body is still a corpse, in a tomb. 
     Evidence to that comes from various places in the treatise.  For example, section 20, 359 E

not the least important suggestion is the opinion held regarding the shrines of Osiris, whose body is said to have been laid in many different places. For they say that Diochites is the name given to a small town, on the ground that it alone contains the true tomb; and that the prosperous and influential men among the Egyptians are mostly buried in Abydos, since it is the object of their ambition to be buried in the same ground with the body of Osiris. In Memphis, however, they say, the Apis is kept, being the image of the soul of Osiris, whose body also lies there. The name of this city some interpret as “the haven of the good” and others as meaning properly the “tomb of Osiris.”

      It is his soul that lives on, in the underworld.  Not his body in this world.  Carrier wants to argue that the body comes back to life, and points to a passage that speaks of its “revivification and regenesis.”  But that is taking the Plutarch’s words out of context.  Here is the relevant passage:

35 364F-365A Furthermore, the tales regarding the Titans and the rites celebrated by night agree with the accounts of the dismemberment of Osiris and his revivification and regenesis ὁμολογεῖ δὲ καὶ τὰ Τιτανικὰ καὶ Νυκτέλια 5 τοῖς λεγομένοις  Ὀσίριδος διασπασμοῖς καὶ ταῖς ἀναβιώσεσι καὶ παλιγγενεσίαις.  Similar agreement is found too in the tales about their sepulchres. The Egyptians, as has already been stated, point out tombs of Osiris in many places, and the people of Delphi believe that the remains of Dionysus rest with them close beside the oracle;

Note: whatever his revivification involves, it is not a return to his physical body, which remains in a tomb someplace.   It is his soul that lives on, as seen, finally in a key passage later:

54  373A It is not, therefore, out of keeping that they have a legend that the soul of Osiris is everlasting and imperishable, but that his body Typhon oftentimes dismembers and causes to disappear, and that Isis wanders hither and yon in her search for it, and fits it together again; for that which really is and is perceptible and good is superior to destruction and change.

     Carrier and I could no doubt argue day and night about how to interpret Plutarch.   But my views do not rest on having read a single article by Jonathan Z. Smith and a refusal to read the primary sources.  As I read them, there is no resurrection of the body of Osiris.  And that is the standard view among experts in the field.
The Other Jesus Conundrum
      In my discussion of G.A. Wells’s work I have occasion to consider his claim that Paul did not think Jesus was a person who lived just a few years before his conversion, but 150 year or so earlier.  In that context I indicate that Paul thought that “the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus were recent events.”   I go on to “stress that this is the view of all of our sources that deal with the matter at all” (p. 251).
      Carrier jumps on this last statement, stating that it “is false” and that by making it I “arrogantly and ignorantly” mislead my readers.  As evidence he points out that in the writings of Epiphanius there is reference to a group of Christians who held that Jesus lived in the days of the Jewish king Jannaeus (103-76 BCE), and that this was the view as well in the Jewish writings of the Talmud and the Toledot Yeshu.
      In this case Carrier has attacked one of my statements by taking it completely out of its context – as would be clear had he simply quoted my next sentence.  After speaking of Paul and the other sources, I say “it is hard to believe that Paul would have such a radically different view from every other Christian of his day, as Wells suggests.  That Jesus lived recently is affirmed not only in all four of our canonical Gospels…. It is also the view of all of the Gospel Sources – Q…M, L – and of the non-Christian sources such as Josephus and Tacitus.”
     When I refer to “all of our other sources” in the sentence that Carrier attacks, I was referring to the sources I then enumerate, those of “every other Christian of [Paul’s] day.”  Iin other words, As a careful reading of this entire section of my book makes crystal clear, in this context I am talking about our earliest sources of information about Jesus: Paul, Q, the Synoptics and their sources, and the non-Christian sources.   I am not referring to every source that ever existed at any time whatsoever.   Epiphanius, whom Carrier cites as an alternative source, was writing at the end of the fourth Christian century; the Talmud and the Toledot Yeshu were later than that.    
     Maybe I could have made this a bit more clear by saying that the view I was referring to could be found in “all our sources from Paul’s time and in the decades that followed, not sources written 300 years later that have no bearing on Paul’s thinking.”  But frankly, I didn’t think it was necessary since I went on to enumerate the sources that I was referring to.  What I meant, of course, was that all of the relevant sources have this view.  

“No Roman Records” 
      In the course of my discussion of Freke and Gandy’s The Jesus Mysteries, I fault them for thinking that since the Romans kept such detailed records of everything (“birth notices, trial records, death certificates”), it is odd indeed that we have no such records from Roman hands about Jesus.  My response is that it is a complete myth (in the mythicist sense) that Romans kept detailed records of everything.   Carrier vehemently objects that this is altogether false, indicating that in fact we have thousands of such records, and that he has “literally held some for these documents in my very hands.”  And he points out that some of them are quoted and cited in ancient books, as when Suetonius refers to the birth records for Caligula.
      What Carrier is referring to is principally the documentary papyri discovered in Egypt, which I am in fact very familiar with and some of which I too have held in my hands.   Over the years I have frequently referred my PhD students to these important records, and have often perused accounts of them, such as the many volumes of the Oxyrynchus Papyri, in the course of my research.   We do indeed have many thousands of such documents – wills, land deeds, birth records, divorce certificates, and on and on — from Egypt.
      Several points need to be made about these documentary papyri.  First, they are, in fact, largely from Egypt – in no small measure because climactic conditions allow for their preservation there.  Second, most of these are not in fact records of Roman officials, but made by indigenous Egyptian writers / scribes.  And third, this is not what I was talking about.
      In this case the misunderstanding is understandable, but easily explained, and shown by considering my comments in their larger context.   My book is about Jesus, a Palestinian Jew of the first century.   Throughout this entire book, I was thinking about Jesus, in everything I said.  And his environment and context.  That is why, as I pointed out in an earlier post, when I was disputing that an bronze ithyphallic rooster represented the disciple Peter, I could say “There is no penis-nosed statue of Peter the cock in the Vatican.”   I wasn’t even thinking about whether there was a penis-nosed statue in the museum; I was thinking about whether it had anything to do with Peter.  No, it doesn’t.  (And it turns out, it is evidently not even in the museum; but I have no first-hand knowledge of that one way or the other.)
      When I denied that we had Roman records of much of anything, or any indication that there ever were Roman records of anything, I was thinking of Palestine.   That becomes clear in my other later reference to the matter where I explain in detail what I was thinking, and that Carrier, understandably, chose not to quote in full:  “I should reiterate that it is a complete “myth” (in the mythicist sense) that Romans kept detailed records of everything and that as a result we are inordinately well informed about the world of Roman Palestine [Note: I’m talking about Palestine] and should expect then to hear about Jesus if he really lived.  If Romans kept such records, where are they?  We certainly don’t have any.  Think of everything we do not know about the reign of Pontius Pilate as governor of Judea…” (p. 44)
      I go on to detail what we have no record of about Pilate from Roman records: “his major accomplishments, his daily itinerary, the decrees he passed, the laws he issued, the prisoners he put on trial, the death warrants he signed, his scandals, his interview, his judicial proceedings.”   In talking about Roman records, I am talking about the Roman records we are interested in: the ones related to the time and place where Jesus lived, first-century Palestine.  It’s a myth that we have or that we could expect to have detailed records from Roman officials about everything that was happening there, so that if Jesus really lived, we would have some indication of it.  Quite the contrary, we precisely don’t have Roman records – of much of anything – from there.
      We do indeed have lots of records from someplace else that doesn’t matter for the question I’m interested in (Egypt; even though even there most of the records are not Roman or from Roman officials).  I can see how my first statement on the matter could be construed (without my fuller explanation of what I meant some pages later) and how it could be read as flat-out error.  But yes, I do indeed know about our documentary papyri.   A better way for me to have said it is that we do have records for other places – at least Egypt – but it’s a complete myth that we have them, or should expect to have them, for the time and place Jesus lived.

The Doherty “Slander”
      Carrier finds fault with my claim, about Earl Doherty, that he “quotes professional scholars at length when their view prove useful for developing aspects of his argument, but he fails to point out that not a single one of these scholars agrees with his overarching thesis” (p. 252).  He points out that Doherty does in fact indicate, in various places throughout his book, that the argument he is advancing at that point is not accepted by other scholars.  As a result, Carrier states, my claim is nothing but “falsified propaganda.”
      I am afraid that in this case Carrier misses my point.  It is true that Doherty acknowledges that scholars disagree with him on this, that, or the other thing.  But the way he builds his arguments typically makes it appear that he is writing as a scholar among scholars, and that all of these scholars (with him in the mix) have disagreements on various issues (disagreements with him, with one another).  One is left with the impression that like these other scholars, Doherty is building a tenable case that some points of which would be granted by some scholars but not others, and that the entire overall thesis, therefore, would also be acceptable to at least some of the scholars he engages with. 
     The reality, however, is that every single scholar of early Christianity that Doherty appeals to fundamentally disagrees with his major thesis (Jesus did not exist).  This is completely unlike other works of true scholarship, where scholars are cited as having disagreements on various points – but not, universally, as an entire body, on the entire premise and virtually all the claims (foundation and superstructure).  I was urging that Doherty should come clean and inform his readers in clear terms that even though he quotes scholars on one issue or another, not a single one of these scholars (or indeed, any recognized scholar in the field of scholarship that he is addressing) agrees with the radical thesis of his book.
      This criticism of Doherty applies not just to his overall argument but to his argument in the details, at the micro level.   The way Doherty uses scholars is just not scholarly, since he often gives the impression that the scholars he quotes agree with him on a point when they expressly do not.  Just to give a typical example:  at one place in my book I discuss Doherty’s claim that Jesus was not crucified here on earth by Romans, but in the spiritual realm by demonic powers (p. 252).  In his book Jesus: Neither God Nor Man Doherty quotes New Testament scholar Morna Hooker in support of his view. In the sentence before he introduces her, he says: “this self-sacrificing divinity (who operates in the celestial spheres, not on earth) is a paradigm for believers on earth” (p. 104).   In other words, Christ was sacrificed in heaven, not on earth.  Then he quotes Hooker: “Christ becomes what we are (likeness of human flesh, suffering and death), so enabling us to become what he is (exalted to the heights).”  Here he cites Hooker to support his claim that Christ was paradigmatic for his followers (a fairly uncontroversial claim), but he does not acknowledge that when she says Christ became “what we are (likeness of human flesh)” she is referring to Christ becoming a human being in flesh on earth – precisely the view he rejects.   Hooker’s argument, then, which he quotes in favor of his view, flat-out contradicts his view.
     In short, I am not denying that Doherty sometimes acknowledges that scholars disagree with him; I am saying that he quotes them as though they support his views without acknowledging that in fact they do not.  

The Pliny Confusion
      Carrier indicates that he almost fell out of his chair when he read my discussion of the letters of Pliny.  Sorry about that!   He points out that when I talk about letter 10, I really meant Book 10; and when I summarize the letter involving Christians, I provide information that is not found in the letter but is assumed by scholars to apply to the letter based on another letter in Book 10.
      To the first charge I plead guilty.  Yes, when I said letter 10 I meant a letter in book 10.  This is what you might call a real howler, a cock-up (not in the Peter sense).   I meant Book 10.  This is the kind of mistake I’m prone to make (I’ve made it before and will probably make it again), that I should have caught.   A more generous reader would have simply said “Ehrman, you say letter 10 but you mean a letter in book 10,” and left it at that.  Carrier takes it to mean that I’m an idiot and that I’ve never read the letters of Pliny.
      I may have moments of idiocy, but I have indeed read the letters of Pliny, especially those of Book 10.  I’ve taught them for years.  When he accuses me of not knowing the difference between a fact and a hypothetical reconstruction, though, he is going too far.  I do indeed know that the context scholars have reconstructed for the “Christian problem” is the broader problem outlined elsewhere in Pliny’s correspondence with Trajan.   The problem here is simply that I was trying to summarize briefly a complicated account in simple terms for readers who frankly, in my opinion (right or wrong) are not interested in the details about Pliny, Trajan, provincial disorder, and fire brigaids when the question is whether Pliny knows about Jesus or not.
      This relates to a bigger problem.   Carrier seems to expect Did Jesus Exist to be a work of scholarship written for scholars in the academy and with extensive engagement with scholarship, rather than what it is, a popular book written for a broad audience.  There is a big difference.  I write both kinds of books.  My scholarly books would never be mistaken for books that would be read by a wide, general public.  But Carrier indicates that the inadequacy of Did Jesus Exist can be seen by comparing it to two of his own recent books, which, he tells us, pay more attention to detail, embrace a more diverse range of scholarship, and have many more footnotes.
      I did not write this book for scholars.  I wrote if for lay people who are interested in a broad, interesting, and very important question.  Did Jesus really exist?  I was not arguing the case for scholars, because scholars already know the answer to that question.  I was explaining to the non-scholar why scholars think what they do.  A non-scholarly book tries to explain things in simple terms, and to do so without the clutter of detail that you would find in a work of scholarship.   The book should not be faulted for that.  If I had wanted to convince scholars (I’m not sure whom I would then be writing for, in that case) I would have written a different kind of book

Conclusion
      I have not dealt with all the myriad of things that Carrier has to say – most of them unpleasant – about my book. But I have tried to say enough, at least, to counter his charges that I am an incompetent pseudo-scholar.   I try to approach my work with honesty and scholarly integrity, and would like to be accorded treatment earned by someone who has devoted his entire life to advancing scholarship and to making scholarship more widely available to the reading public.
      I am absolutely positive that Carrier and his supporters will write response after response to my comments here, digging deeper and deeper to show that I am incompetent.  They will expect replies, so that then they can write yet more comments, to which they will expect more replies, so that they can write more comments.  I am finding, now that I am becoming active on the Internet, that engaging in discussion here can mean entering into a black hole: there is no way out once you hit the event horizon.   Many critics of my work have boundless energy and, seemingly, endless time.   I myself have lots of energy, but not lots of time.  I have had my say now, in an attempt to show my scholarly competence.  I do not plan on pursuing the matter time and time again in this medium.  My main energies – and my limited time – need to be devoted to the two ultimate goals of my career: to advance scholarship among scholars and to explain scholarship to popular audiences.  That requires me to write books, and that takes massive amounts of time.   That is where I will be putting the bulk of my energies, not to writing lengthy responses defending myself against unfounded charges of incompetence.
      I close by quoting a passage that Carrier himself wrote in one of his earlier books, as provided to me by a sympathetic reader.  In the Introduction of his book Sense and Goodness Without God (pp. 5-6), Carrier makes the following plea:

“For all readers, I ask that my work be approached with the same intellectual charity you would expect from anyone else…. [O]rdinary language is necessarily ambiguous and open to many different interpretations.  If what I say anywhere in this book appears to contradict, directly or indirectly, something else I say here, the principle of interpretive charity should be applied: assume you are misreading the meaning of what I said in each or either case.  Whatever interpretation would eliminate the contradiction and produce agreement is probably correct.  So you are encouraged in every problem that may trouble you to find that interpretation.  If all attempts at this fail, and you cannot but see a contradiction remaining, you should write to me about this at once, for the manner of my expression may need expansion or correction in a future edition to remove the difficulty, or I might really have goofed up and need to correct a mistake.”

     I like very much the idea of “intellectual charity,” and I think that it is a good idea to contact an author about problems that might be detected in her or his writing.  I wish Carrier had followed his own advice and contacted me, in fact, rather than publish such a negative and uncharitable review.  But I do hope, at least, that fair minded readers will see be open to the arguments that I make and the evidence that I adduce in Did Jesus Exist, and realize that they are the views, in popular form, of serious scholarship.  They are not only serious scholarly views, they are the views held by virtually every serious scholar in the field of early Christian studies.


The Text of the New Testament: Are the Textual Traditions of Other Ancient Works Relevant?
Response to Carrier

184

Comments

  1. Avatar
    Rick  April 26, 2012

    I’m not a scholar on any of these topics, and have but a passing interest in the existence of Jesus. I’ve read both Carrier’s critique and this reply, and I think in this matter you’ve definitely behaved better. Your responses, to my untrained eye, seem to me to win the argument, and your refusal to engage in the name-calling seems the more scholarly approach.

  2. Avatar
    Tim Martin  April 26, 2012

    I’m still working my way through all the arguments on both sides of this, but personally I was hoping you (Dr. Ehrman) would explain your assertion that we have numerous, independent accounts of Jesus’ life in the sources behind the Gospels. According to Carrier (and others I have read), we have no such sources.

    • Bart Ehrman
      Bart Ehrman  April 26, 2012

      I explain all that in my book. Adequately, I hope!

  3. Avatar
    Neil Godfrey  April 26, 2012

    It looks like Earl Doherty is damned if he doesn’t engage with the scholarship and now he is damned if he does. I find it curious that the one example Bart refers to that supposedly makes him look dishonest or somehow implying that Morna Hooker is supporting his interpretation of a celestial crucifixion is identical to the one example advanced by James McGrath — and which was answered by Doherty himself as follows:

    She stated a principle (Barrett once stated a possible meaning in regard to a Greek phrase which I was able to make use of, though in a manner he did not). It is completely legitimate for me to appeal to such observations when they can be applied to a mythicist interpretation, even if the scholar himself or herself does not choose to make the same application of their observations. Hooker pointed out the principle involved in counterpart guarantees: “Christ becomes what we are (likeness of flesh, suffering and death), so enabling us to become what he is (exalted to the heights).” That principle stands, it works in both cases, whether it is applied to a Christ perceived to be acting on earth, or a Christ perceived to be acting in the heavens. I am well aware that Hooker applies it to the former; she understands it in that context. That doesn’t necessitate her being right. I can take the same principle and understand it in the context of a heavenly death and rising. Because I don’t conform to Hooker’s context does not necessitate me being wrong. This is simple logic . . . .

    It submit that it is simply absurd to suggest that Doherty at any point misleads anyone to think the scholars he engages with support his mythicist view. Of course they don’t, and Doherty at no point hides that fact. Right from the opening page he makes it clear what is already clear to everyone — that is argument is “radical” and obviously contrary to the mainstream view. And as I point out in my post, Doherty regularly acknowledges and addresses the fact that scholars do not draw the same conclusions as he does.

    Doherty has handled the scholarship in a scholarly manner, and has never pretended to be a professional scholar himself — he explains why he writes in the style he does, and for whom, and what his educational background is — so it is quite unfair to fault Doherty for appearing to be a scholar among scholars.

    Is it wrong for an amateur to seriously engage with the professional scholarship and draw different conclusions through that serious engagement?

    • Avatar
      Dave Burke  April 29, 2012

      Neil,

      >>
      Is it wrong for an amateur to seriously engage with the professional scholarship and draw different conclusions through that serious engagement?
      >>

      Not at all, provided he doesn’t mind making a fool of himself in the process.

  4. Avatar
    NSalim  April 26, 2012

    At the SBL’s annual meeting you said that experts should write for the popular market. Perhaps if there were more experts writing for those of us who are not in academia, there would be fewer Carriers.

  5. Avatar
    Neil Godfrey  April 26, 2012

    Dr Ehrman

    I appreciate that you have acknowledged that some of your statements were ambiguously worded. But there is one wording that I have a difficult time understanding and I would appreciate a clarification about it.

    You quote Doherty as saying that there was only “one view” of the universe among the ancients, and in this context quote page 97 of his revised edition of his book. But page 97 of that book says “views”, plural, and the remainder of the sentence also expresses plurality. He also addresses the Stoics, Epicureans as well as Neo-Platonists. And of course, Platonism was a strong influence through Stoicism itself. Doherty’s entire argument is premised upon the variety of ancient views extant at the time.

    So I was wondering if you could clarify why you appeared to make a sustained argument (repeated several times) that Doherty wrote that their was only one view of the world among ancients?

    Thankyou

    • Avatar
      Claude  April 27, 2012

      Neil,

      This is disingenuous. I know you know the quote came from p. 95 of Jesus Puzzle!

  6. Avatar
    Haltz  April 26, 2012

    This is what has irritated me about Carrier for a long time–his being so insufferably full of himself. His intemperate way of engaging other scholars is always expressed as if he is the benchmark against which every other scholar of the subject will be compared–usually unfavorably. A most unscholarly demeanor!

    • Avatar
      Kalvin  April 27, 2012

      That does not attack the issue of whether jesus was a historical figure or not. That is an attack on Carrier, and nothing more.

  7. Avatar
    David Chumney  April 26, 2012

    Bart, thank you for taking the time to write this extended response. I had completed Did Jesus Exist prior to reading Carrier’s critique and wondered whether he and I had read the same book! Despite his totally unprofessional tone in that critique, I remain very interested in the issue. I’ve read his published work on the subject as well as most of what Robert Price has written.

    You will perhaps not be disappointed to learn that his scathing attack has led me to your blog, to which I plan to subscribe. Your goal of making the results of scholarship more widely available to the reading public is much appreciated. Keep up the good work!

  8. Avatar
    Rocky  April 26, 2012

    I love the smell of atheists bashing each other in the morning.

    You both are agenda driven, and it isn’t by a love of “objective scholarship”.

  9. Avatar
    Derek  April 26, 2012

    Carrier is one of a “new breed” of mythers? Meh. He’s been floating around the net for years spreading this nonsense. Yawn. Thanks for engaging these guys Dr. Erhman. You’ve more patience than most.

  10. Avatar
    Nikos Apostolakis  April 26, 2012

    Dr. Ehrman,

    The criticism I would like seing you, or an other expert on the field, address is that of your methodology. Carrier in his review argues that your methodology is invalid–essentially based on circular logic. This is not the first time that I have come across this criticism, but I have never seen a reply that enganges with the arguments. You seem to be arguing that your methodology can produce certainty about the existence of Jesus, or at least enough confidence to justify comparing those who doubt the existence of Jesus to Holocaust deniers. This, to my lay eyes, seems a pretty strong claim since the evidence that the Holocaust did happen is so overwhelming.

    I understand that you’d rather devote your time doing your actual research, and I know only too well what a sinkhole of time the internet can be. You said though that you would address furter questions from your readers, and I would really appreciate hearing your side of the story in this, very important IMO, criticism.

    Thank you for your time.

    • Avatar
      ntuser  April 26, 2012

      I agree with Nikos. Carrier’s attack on Prof. Ehrman’s methodology was not answered.
      I always cringe when someone uses Q for evidence. I am persuaded by Mark Goodacre’s arguments that Q is unnecessary and not needed for the synoptic problem and this was referenced by Carrier:
      http://markgoodacre.org/Q/
      Occam always wins.
      Same with M and L and the hypothesized edited collection of Paul’s letters. We have a lot of documents from early Christianity so why make up documents that we don’t have and are not mentioned by any ancient source?

      • Avatar
        Raymond Wood  April 29, 2012

        James M. Robinson presents a cogent argument for the existence of a *written* Q in his “A Written Greek Sayings Cluster Older than Q: A Vestige” (Harvard Theological Review 92: 1 (1999) 61-77 — unfortunately no longer online). And William E. Arnal’s “Jesus and the Village Scribes: Galilean Conflicts and the Setting of Q” limns a detailed social analysis of a first-century Galilean setting that supports a written Q.

        • Avatar
          ntuser  April 29, 2012

          Q is a reasonable hypothesis sure. But what Carrier pointed out in his rant was that Q can’t bear the weight of being used as evidence in arguments. This isn’t new, Mark Goodacre’s treatise is just the latest in a long line of scholarship that shows the No Q is at least as good as Q and Luke could use Matthew as a source. No one has Q. It may well just not exist. We can cite Matthew and Luke – we have those documents (copies anyway.)

          What’s goofy about Carrier’s review is that he then goes on to do exactly the same thing that he criticizes Prof. Ehrman for with the Aramaic sayings in Mark. Carrier suggests that Mark’s source for these is a targum – one we don’t have!

          • Avatar
            Viracocha  May 20, 2012

            Doherty has proved that many of Mark’s elements is found in Paul’s letters, such as Jesus sayings that were originally spoken by Paul in his letters that “strangely” never quotes Jesus sayings and deeds, and be in evidence that Paul was the first to talk about Jesus “no Nazareth involved”.

          • Bart Ehrman
            Bart Ehrman  May 21, 2012

            Yes I deal with Doherty at length in my book.

  11. Avatar
    Landon Lockhart  April 26, 2012

    Just look at the reviews on Amazon Dr. Ehrman. I have read every book you have written, and I must say I have thoroughly enjoyed them…until this one. Doherty, Carrier, Price, Murdock…etc really do have the better argument here in my opinion. I try to be as objective as possible. I think you are a brilliant scholar. I do not think you are incompetent, nor is your book “crap.”. It is, in fact, the best defense of the historical Jesus to date. With that said, you didn’t have much competition in the category. I think (one man’s opinion) that you simply would like there to have been a Jesus and literally every good review you had was from biased Christians. It honestly reads like a light apologetic work and your amazon reviews reflect this view. There is simply not enough evidence to confirm the existence of an historical Jesus. The burden of proof is upon you and I’m sorry to say…it still is. Extraordinary claims, my friend, require extraordinary evidence. I enjoyed reading your arguments and I most certainly learned a few things.

    • Avatar
      ntuser  April 26, 2012

      What exactly is so extraordinary about an apocalyptic preacher in first century Palestine who was executed by the Romans? This does not need extraordinary evidence at all.

      • Avatar
        Kalvin  April 27, 2012

        Because, the Romans kept documents of every crucifixion. However, no documents exist for a messianic Jewish figure having been crucified during the allotted time period.

        • Avatar
          ntuser  April 28, 2012

          I’m game Kalvin – where’s the list with Jesus omitted?

        • Avatar
          TimONeill  April 28, 2012

          “the Romans kept documents of every crucifixion. However, no documents exist for a messianic Jewish figure having been crucified during the allotted time period.”

          Okay, now can you point us to where this extensive collection of Roman records of crucifixions can be found? Are they solely in your imagination or can they be consulted somewhere or other? And why do no scholars know of them? Have you unearthed them recently?

          And then these people whine when they aren’t taken seriously …

      • Avatar
        Viracocha  May 20, 2012

        Nothing at all, if this preacher weren’t Jesus of Nazareth, that as I said before, is completely omitted by Paul, the first person who talked about Jesus whose sayings come originally from Paul (Earl Doherty), this way, Paul was the preacher not Jesus. Maybe Jesus the Nazarene (because Nazareth didn’t exist at Jesus’s time) was a historical man, but he wasn’t the Jesus of Paul and was just a figure to incarnate Paul’s Jesus.

        • Bart Ehrman
          Bart Ehrman  May 21, 2012

          Nazareth certainly existed in Jesus’ day, as I show in my book (and as every archaeologist of Palestine will tell you! If you want names, I’m happy to supply them). And Paul *does* talk about Jesus: all you need to do is ready his letters to see! Again, I talk about that in my book.

          • Avatar
            omo1020  June 5, 2017

            Hi!
            Could you please name these archaeologists? Also, how do respond to Rene Salm’s book arguing that Nazareth did not exist?

          • Bart
            Bart  June 6, 2017

            I have a lengthy discussion of this in my book Did Jesus Exist, where I actually give the bibliography of works by archaeologists who have dug in Nazareth, and where I show why those who are archaeologists have convincingly shown that Salm, who is not an archaeologist (and appears to know very little about archaeology) doesn’t seem to know what he’s talking about.

    • Avatar
      Jonathan Burke  April 26, 2012

      There’s nothing extraordinary about the claim of an itinerant Jewish rabbi in the first century, or a first century Jewish messianic claimant. First century Judea had plenty of them, attested by writers such as Philo and Josephus. So claiming that all the other itinerant rabbis or messianic claimants recognized by historians were genuine figures but that Jesus was not, is the extraordinary claim.

      Jesus is different to these other figures in one respect; his life produced a massive historical effectwhich the others did not, as well as a very large and long-lasting following of disciples, which others did not. To remove Jesus from the historical record requires an extraordinary explanation of that historical effect, an explanation relying on principles of professional historiography and not the typical Mytherist arguments: hand waving, special pleading, made up meanings for Greek words and phrases which are not attested in any Greek literature, and claims that any text which appears to refer to Jesus must be an interpolation.

      • Avatar
        SAWells  April 27, 2012

        This argument would only be sound if it were the case that Jesus personally founded the Christian church. This is not the case. People like Paul founded the church; Jesus isn’t needed. Consider the case of Mormonism. There are millions of Mormons now and they have been and continue to be politically significant in the USA. Does this mean that the Angel Moroni and the Golden Plates are true? No. We know who founded Mormonism- Joseph Smith- and he did it by claiming to be a prophet. His success in founded a religion does not prove the claims of his religion true. Similarly, the success of Paul in founding a religion does not imply the reality of Paul’s Jesus, or any of the gospel Jesuses.

        To “remove Jesus from the historical record” is trivial because he isn’t _in_ the historical record, only in religious texts.

        • Avatar
          Dave Burke  April 29, 2012

          SAWells,

          >>
          To “remove Jesus from the historical record” is trivial because he isn’t _in_ the historical record, only in religious texts.
          >>

          Aside from the Testimonium Flavianum, Jesus is mentioned explicitly as the object of Christian devotion by Pliny the Younger in his letter to Trajan. I am unaware of any historian who regards these two documents as religious texts which fall ‘outside the historical record.’

      • Avatar
        vinnyjh57  April 28, 2012

        I would say that Jesus’ life produced no historical effect whatsoever. During his life, there is no record of him being known outside of a small group of illiterate peasants until he came to the attention of the Romans who executed him as a troublemaker. Had it not been for a belief in events which occurred after his death, he might well have come and gone without leaving any mark in the historical record. With Alexander the Great, supernatural stories arose as a result of the accomplishments of a flesh and blood human. With Jesus of Nazareth, stories of his earthly life were only preserved and perpetuated as a result of the postmortem accomplishments of a supernatural being.

        • Avatar
          Dave Burke  April 29, 2012

          Vinny,

          >>
          During his life, there is no record of him being known outside of a small group of illiterate peasants until he came to the attention of the Romans who executed him as a troublemaker.
          >>

          I presume you arrive at this conclusion by completely dismissing the gospels, which clearly show that Jesus was known by wealthy, highly educated members of Jewish society, some of whom were high ranking members of the religious establishment.

          • Avatar
            vinnyjh57  April 29, 2012

            Dave,

            The gospels were a product of the belief that he was raised from the dead. I think their claims that Jesus interacted with the prominent people of his day have to be taken with a grain of salt.

    • Avatar
      Sam Harper  April 26, 2012

      “Extraordinary claims, my friend, require extraordinary evidence”

      The claim that Jesus existed is hardly extraordinary.

    • Avatar
      zakiechan  April 26, 2012

      Landon,

      I am in a similar boat as you. I have read 9 of Ehrman’s books and enjoyed all of them very much. However, unlike you, I thought this book was just as good as the others (actually, I liked it more than Forged). Like yourself, I try to be as objective as possible (I was even convinced of the mythicist position while I was in college, but then later changed my mind).

      You say that literally every good review is from a biased Christian. But couldn’t it also be that every negative review is from a biased atheist? A Christian could say the same thing of his other books, “all the positive reviews are from biased atheists.”

      Ehrman said he is more than willing to take on the burden. Though, I don’t see how the existence of one guy is an extraordinary claim. Saying he raised from the dead, sure… but Ehrman doesn’t think or argue that.

      I am curious though, what about chapter 5 did you not find convincing?

  12. Avatar
    Andrew  April 26, 2012

    (1) “In my discussion of G.A. Wells’s work I have occasion to consider his claim that Paul did not think Jesus was a person who lived just a few years before his conversion, but 150 year or so earlier. In that context I indicate that Paul thought that “the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus were recent events.”

    And Paul states that the resurrection of Jesus was the first fruits of those who had died (1 Corinthians 15:20) which initiated the last days of the world: this suggests that Paul did think that the death and resurrection of Christ was a recent event. The mythical death of Jesus in a timeless heavenly world does not seem to be consistent with his expectation of an impending parousia and the idea that the eschatological times had been begun by a recent event: the first resurrection of the dead throughout history.

    More discussion here:

    http://thoughtsphilosophyculture.blogspot.com/2012/04/why-jesus-mythicism-is-unconvincing.html

    (2) You say:

    “In my book I take the Roman historian Tacitus to task for claiming that Pontius Pilate was a procurator rather than a prefect.”

    This question is a bit more complicated.

    In terms of official titulature, Tacitus’s error is straightforward: when Tacitus was writing in the early 2nd century AD the equestrian governors usually carried the official title “procurator.” Before the empeor Claudius, equestrian governors were generally officially called prefects.

    See B. Levick, Claudius (Routledge, London, 2001), p. 48:

    “The second change concerns the titulature of equestrian governors. Equites sent to govern small provinces or districts such as Judaea or Raetia had been styled by the military title of Prefect. Prefects vanished from all provinces except Egypt, where the title was buttressed by law, and ‘praesidial’ procurators … replaced them.”

    In informal terms, however, prefects could still be called procurators as private financial agents of the emperor: for we have a letter of Claudius in 41 to Vitrasius Pollio the Prefect of Egypt (no doubt his offical title) where Claudius clearly calls him a “procurator” (B. Levick, Claudius, Routledge, London, 2001, p. 48ff.)

    More detailed discussion here:

    http://thoughtsphilosophyculture.blogspot.com/2012/04/tacitus-on-pilate-as-procurator-of.html

  13. Avatar
    Michael Macrossan  April 26, 2012

    I like the measured tone you take, under fairly severe provocation – much better than the lame defense of the obscene statue remark.

    I think you did the right thing about the Tacitus interpolation issue – you gave your expert Carrier’s reference and it turned out to be correct, as far as it goes, and a surprise to your expert. I don’t think Carrier himself thinks it is an interpolation; he agrees with you that Tacitus mentioned Christ, but thinks Tacitus’s source is his friend Pliny and Pliny got his information from interrogating Christians.

    However I don’t think you gave your expert Carrier’s full argument (or even partial argument) about the procurator/prefect thing. Carrier thinks the entire context of Tacitus’s book makes it clear why Tacitus chose to use the lesser of two possible descriptions for Pilate. So it would have been better if your expert had seen the entire argument – it’s in Carrier’s blog somewhere “Herod the Procurator?” I think is the title of the essay, and I thought he backed up his claim that one could be a procurator as well as a prefect, but don’t remember the details well enough to repeat it here. Maybe your expert might would be surprised or maybe your expert would dismiss it as a student’s mistake.

  14. Avatar
    JordanDay  April 26, 2012

    Dr. Ehrman,
    Your response thus far has been very thorough and professional (I admire your restraint). I would however like to see you respond to the “Baptism Blunder” that Carrier addresses (seeing that he said this was possibly your most blatant error). I understand you cannot continue addressing every point he objects to, but I would personally like to see your response to this objection (even if very brief).

    Thank you sir.

  15. Avatar
    Claude  April 26, 2012

    Prof. Ehrman’s response is exemplary.

    And if I hear “No true Scotsman” one more time, I’m going to throw a priapic cockerel through the window.

    • Avatar
      Sam Harper  April 26, 2012

      I think the “no true Scotsman” fallacy is being misused by some of Ehrman’s critics. If Ehrman were saying that others were not real scholars because they subscribe to mythicism or deny the existence of Jesus, then he would be using the no true Scotsman fallacy. But saying that somebody is not a scholar because they don’t have advanced degrees in a field relevant to the historical Jesus, or because they aren’t published in academic journals, or they don’t teach on the subject, is not the “no true Scotsman” fallacy. If Ehrman used their lack of credentials to call their conclusions into question, that would be a version of the ad hominem fallacy, not the “no true Scotsman” fallacy.

      • Avatar
        Claude  April 27, 2012

        Thanks for that. I doubt I made the distinction, associating the expression with the dreaded “appeal to authority” that Ehrman’s opponents often deploy to dismiss his claims. I’ll just note that, in the books I’ve read Ehrman is at pains to explain that the views he presents reflect the scholarly consensus. He clearly wishes to defuse any suspicion that he is an irresponsible renegade out to supply the heathen in their war on religion. And further, that professionalism matters.

        Unlike Carrier, who has apparently appointed himself chief separator of wheat from chaff, the scholarly consensus be damned.

        I normally enjoy observing intellectual combat (and would normally side with the insurgents), but in this case it’s been a depressing spectacle. The mythicists have demonstrated precisely how not to go about promoting a controversial perspective. If they become further marginalized they have no one to blame but themselves.

    • Avatar
      Kalvin  April 27, 2012

      I agree, it absolutely is a no-true scotsman. Not to mention the various appeals to popular opinion as well. Oh, and I forgot to mention Ad-Hominem statements about those who disagree with him.

  16. Avatar
    drmightie  April 26, 2012

    Thom stark of Religion at the Margin has a well written piece on Richard Carrier critique of Dr Ehrman titled ” The Death of Richard Carrier’s Dying Messiah”.

    here is the link http://religionatthemargins.com/2012/04/the-death-of-richard-carriers-dying-messiah/

  17. Avatar
    Eric Chabot  April 26, 2012

    Nice response Dr. Ehrman. Much appreciated.

  18. Avatar
    Mike  April 26, 2012

    Dr. Ehrman,

    I was really hoping you would address the question of methodology raised by Carrier in that critique and in his new book advocating a Bayesian analysis of historical claims. I was taught the sort of methodology you advocate by a former grad student of yours and have favored it until recently. From my investigation so far, it really does seem like Bayes’s Theorem can offer a much more robust framework than the popular methodology, which seems to lack rigour. What are your thoughts on applying a new standard (apart from whether these are thrust at you along with insults from Carrier)? It would seem to get us closer toward Hume’s goal of maintaining beliefs in proportion to the evidence.

    Thanks.

  19. Avatar
    George Locke  April 26, 2012

    The attacks are sustained throughout his lengthy post, and they often become personal. He indicates that “Ehrman doesn’t actually know what he is talking about,” he claims that I speak with “absurd” hyperbole, that my argument “makes [me] look irresponsible,” that I am guilty of “sloppy work,” that I “misrepresent” my opponents and “misinform the public,” that what I write is “crap,” that I am guilty of “arrogantly dogmatic and irresponsible thinking,” that I am “incompetent,” make “hack” mistakes, and do not “act like a real scholar.”

    These are all criticisms of your work not you personally. You’ve mistaken strident rhetoric for ad hominem argumentation, which, despite his fervor, Carrier does not resort to.

    • Avatar
      Jonathan Burke  April 27, 2012

      Carrier makes a number of attacks which are personal rather than directed at Ehrman’s arguments; Ehrman is referred to as arrogantly dogmatic (not his argument), Ehrman is referred to as incompetent (not his argument), Ehrman is accused of not knowing what he is talking about (an accusation which cannot be applied to an argument), it is Erhman who looks irresponsible (not his argument), it is Ehrman who is accused of ‘irresponsible thinking’ (an accusation which cannot be applied to an argument).

      • Avatar
        George Locke  May 1, 2012

        So it’s ok to say “this work is shoddy”, but to say “this work is shoddy and reflects poorly on its author” is ad hominem?

    • Avatar
      Dan  April 30, 2012

      Thanks George Locke for providing us with an example of motivated reasoning.

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    Fredrik Bendz  April 26, 2012

    Dear Dr Ehrman,

    I’ve read your books “Early Christianity” and “Misquoting Jesus” with great interest. I think you are doing a good job in bringing scholarship to a wider audience. I also think you are making a good defence against the personal attacks from Carrier. However, he who is without sin cast the first stone (as I’ve learned from your books that Jesus never said, at least not according to the “original” MSS. You wrote a whole book discrediting the mythicisits and frankly, calling them names. You should expect the same response from them.

    Personally I’m agnostic to whether Jesus existed. I’m not giving an alternative hypothesis, simply because I don’t know the subject enough. I do, however, think the evidence is insufficient. Most claimed evidence presupposes that Jesus actually lived at the time depicted in the gospels. If that is not the case, most hypothesis on his historicity seem to fail. (For example: “The gospels were written only a few decades after Jesus’ death” presupposes that Jesus actually died, and that he died under the reign of Pontus Pilate. To assume what you intend to prove is circular arguing, not evidence of the fact you intent do establish.)

    I most certainly agree with your and your colleagues right to believe that Jesus walked this earth. However, I think you should be more open with the fact that this is based on theory building, not on plain facts. We don’t have any hard evidence. It may be a viable hypothesis, but the fact is that nobody knows for sure. To conclude: I think you and your fellow scholars should be more open with this fact.

    I also would like to ask you, what, in your opinion, is the strongest evidence that Jesus existed as a historical figure?

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      ntuser  April 27, 2012

      I would compare this level of skepticism to the Obama birther arguments. What “hard evidence” is required and can be reasonable expected for the historical Jesus proposition? What level of proof is needed? Keep in mind what little we know about any ancient person – or even any person today! Anyone can take an arbitrarily skeptical position but it should be reasonable given the proposition.

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        vinnyjh57  April 28, 2012

        Had belief in his resurrection not arisen, it is entirely possible that historians would have no basis to know that Jesus ever existed. Only because of supernatural events that are thought to have occurred after his death does he appear in the historical record at all. I think that makes the case for his existence different than for anyone else in the ancient world who made their mark in the historical record as a result of events that occurred during their lives.

        • Bart Ehrman
          Bart Ehrman  April 28, 2012

          It’s a good point, and may be true. At the same time, we do have plenty of records of Jesus’ words and deeds that are unrelated to the miraculous. These are the things, I think, that historians can discuss, as to whether they are historically accurate/reliable or not.

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            vinnyjh57  April 28, 2012

            This is true, but it is at least highly unlikely that any of those records would ever have come into being but for their utility in propagating belief in the supernatural accomplishments of the risen Christ, which in turn creates doubts for me about whether the same consideration might have governed the creation of the stories themselves.

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          Dave Burke  April 29, 2012

          Vinny,

          >>
          Only because of supernatural events that are thought to have occurred after his death does he appear in the historical record at all.
          >>

          Can you honestly say this about the Testimonium Flavianum and Antiquities 20.9.1? Josephus treats Jesus as a historical person but he does not mention the resurrection or any other supernatural events. It seems Jesus’ life as an influential itinerant rabbi had historical significance after all.

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            vinnyjh57  April 29, 2012

            Dave,

            Dr. Ehrman says in his book that it is most likely that Josephus’ source for that was the stories that Christians were telling about Jesus rather than anything independent. If he is correct, this is still a source that most likely would not exist but for the belief in Jesus’ postmortem accomplishments.

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