Loading...Hearty apologies to anyone (if there is anyone! 🙂 ) who has come to expect daily posts from me. As with so many other people on the planet (well, in America) this has been an inordinately busy time for me, and I just haven’t had the spare 45 minutes that I daily try to devote to the blog. Right on the heels of the packed Society of Biblical Literature meeting in Chicago (starting the next day) was the Thanksgiving preparations and with family coming in from literally all over the country, it’s been hectic. The frenetic pace is starting to die down now, and tomorrow I return to my normal ways and go on a very serious diet….
On Thanksgiving. It’s my favorite holiday. Christmas I love as well, even though, obviously, I do not celebrate it as a Christian. But I celebrate it and love Christmas trees and Christmas music, of all sorts, and giving presents (not buying them; that’s a pain. But I love giving them!), and being with family and eating and all the good things that come with it.
Thanksgiving though I love even more, in part because it is the one great holiday with no (necessary) religious connections. It’s *all* about family and eating and drinking and appreciating the good things in life, available to everyone who is not in the throes of abject suffering. Even when I was poor as a church mouse – in living memory, and for a good portion of my adult life – I could enjoy a good turkey dinner, with family, and friends, and football, and, well, what could be better?
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But there’s a kind of piquant irony about Thanksgiving for me, that I talk about, circuitously, in my book God’s Problem. I’d say I’ve always been a thankful person. Even when money was short, I had so much. I’ve always had so much. Good health. A roof over my head. A warm bed. A fantastic family. Kids I adore. Now grandkids I adore. An amazing wife. A great job. Doing what I want to do with my life.  True, interesting, and faithful friends. Life’s been extremely good to me. And I’ve always been thankful.
But when I became an agnostic –what? 15 years ago now? I don’t even know how to date it – when I became an agnostic I found that I was confronted with a very odd situation.  As a Christian for maybe forty years, give or take, I always had Someone to be thankful *to*.  Being thankful meant, for me then, to be able to thank someone.  But what happens when you’re thankful and you have no one to thank? What happens when you are grateful for what you’ve been given but no one is responsible for giving it to you to whom you can express your gratitude?  In many ways, that was the most unsettling and unexpected feeling for me when I left the faith. I was still thankful and grateful, but my sense of appreciation and gratitude seemed to evaporate in the empty air.
I think I’ve grown more accustomed to this feeling with the passing of time. In part it is because I realize that at the end of the day, I’m just unbelievably lucky.  I think everyone who is not experiencing suffering in extremis is very lucky. Just having a place to stay and three good meals a day is very lucky. When you think what most of the billions of humans who have lived on this planet (especially before, say, the 19th century, and many many millions even now) have had to live and put up with, most of us are unbelievably lucky.
One of the reasons I became an agnostic in the first place was precisely because of the problem of giving thanks to the one who had given me so many things. I came to realize that if I thank God for the good things I have, it means that I’m attributing my good fortune to him, as the one who has provided those things.  But what does that say about the person who doesn’t have them, who is homeless and living in the cold? Or hungry not knowing where the next meal is coming from? Or actually starving and knowing that in fact there is not going to be a next meal? Or suffering from the ravages of war, or drought, or hurricane, or tsunami, or earthquake, or epidemic, or physical defect, or … make your own list. If God had given *me* all the good things I have, so he alone is responsible, what about those who have only bad things? Is he alone responsible for *that* as well?
Odd as it is, I came to think that if I thanked God for my food, I was acknowledging that he was mean and capricious and that when he gave me food, he chose to withhold food from another, or worse, caused the drought, the epidemic, the earthquake that made others suffer. I certainly didn’t think he had done *that*. But if that’s true, then why should I think he had given me the good things I had?
This, as I said, is a large reason I came to be an agnostic. I simply didn’t believe it any more. I didn’t believe in a God who blessed me and cursed others – or at least was good to me but chose not to be good to others. I just didn’t believe it. And I still don’t believe it.
And so the piquant irony. I am still unbelievably thankful for all I have. But I have no one to thank. That’s an irony that I have chosen to live with. But knowing the irony makes me no less thankful.
I hope all of you had a wonderful and memorable Thanksgiving, and that you too have much to be thankful for.[/mepr-show]
I’ve often wondered whether there’s some connection between Thanksgiving and Advent Sunday, making Thanksgiving an even better version of Shrove Tuesday. I know this year there’s an extra week’s gap, but still…
Bart, What you bring to the table makes a lot of sense.As a matter of fact it makes so much sense I hate to think about it:) Quite often I have those moments where I am very thankful for all I have, and of course, I thank God, because I guess I have no one else to thank. Of course life has not always been as good as it is now,but in most cases I brought hard times upon myself. But I agree with you, that so many people in this world do not do anything to bring hard times upon themselves. When I considered myself at one time to be a Christian, I actually believed I was so blessed because I just happened to have the right theology. Of course now I believe that to be utterly nonsense. I still believe in God now, just do not know what to believe about Him. I guess in a way I hold to the theology of, “God created good and bad and there is a purpose for each one.” Of course I do not know what the purpose of bad would be, especially if I was on the receiving end of it. Anyway, thanks for the post Bart. Have a good Christmas
Thank you for your thoughts. Always nice to read them. On the last class of Psychology o Religion, it actually occurred to me if there was a survey of what/who the “thankful atheists/agnostics” are actually thankful to? (the teacher didn’t know of such a survey) One could imagine nature, universe, self, others, etc, but I guess there aren’t many options. One could be even grateful and be grateful to no one! (see this interesting clip with people from “The Sea of Faith” movement which is a kind of death-of-god version of Christianity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-RUDSRGLX4) . So my question to you is: Are you still grateful in your life? If so, to what / whom?
Yes, that was the point of my post: I’m completely grateful for all that I have.
And what/who are you thankful to? : )
When I read your first question I thought maybe you hadn’t read my post. Now I’m sure of it!
I read it. But I wasn’t completely sure about your answer to this. I apologize for the misunderstanding on my part
Bart, your thoughts are expressing what I was thinking earlier today. To make a long story short, I had a close call earlier today while driving that almost got me in an accident. Right after that happened, I found myself actually wanting to thank a deity for sparing me from that accident. I then realized how narcissistic such a prayer would be. Many of us are probably aware of the multi-car pileup that happened in Texas on thanksgiving morning that was the result of two semi-trucks hitting each other head on. At least two people died and more are injured. How disgusting would it be of me to thank a god from sparing me from an accident when the people in Texas were not as fortunate! Such a prayer would have implied that a god is looking out for me and taking care of me, but doesn’t give a crap or hates the people in texas. It’s funny that theists accuse us nonbelievers of being ungrateful and selfish, but these kinds of prayers are the epitome of narcissism.
On a lighter note, though, Bart, it looks like we might have to sound the death knell for the Atlantic Coast Conference (ACC). But will it rise from the dead and come back again in glory and triumph???? We shall see. 🙂
Maryland leaving the ACC is not a death knell. It isn’t even a bell rung for the common cold. They didn’t bring much to the table and no one seems to be sad to see them go….
Well said. Thank you for your time, scholarship and willingness to share your stories with us. Thank you!
I really enjoy reading your personal reflections.
The problem of suffering is what made me realize how narcissistic the “personal relationship” part of Christianity was. Why does this God care so much about a first world nobody, while an innocent child in the third world, dying of an easily treatable disease doesn’t get any help from this all powerful magician?
From God’s own hand this earthly vessel came,
He shaped it thus, be it for fame or shame;
If it be fair–to God be all the praise,
If it be foul–to God alone the blame.–Omar Khayyam
Hey, I love the quote, but you are confusing what God may or may not care about with what we humans care about. He may not even care at all, which I suppose is his prerogative. In any event, an “all powerful magician,” he isn’t!
I also don’t believe in a God who blesses me and curses others. I simply (or simplistically) think that God is challenging us to bless others through our acts of human kindness, either on a small scale (privately) or on a large scale (governmentally. However this is a rather inadequate solution. Yet, If God solved all of these problems for us, then we would be nothing more than puppets. I don’t have an answer and share your anguish. I am reading God’s Problem now, among other books.
great post! Glad You had a good thanksgiving (I must say im a bit jealous that in America one can celebrate something so great only a montyh before christmas and get to do it all over again then! lol) I too look forward to Christmas , understanding it to be a pagan holiday (Saturnalia and the actual day “Sol Invictus”) , which should be about FEASTING! and spending time with family and friends (of course some are lucky enough to do this all year round but the end of the year and presents decor just somehow makes Christmas special!
I too , am very thankful about having a roof , bed , food etc as I totally agree this si somethibng which would be considered a luxury to most back a few hundred years ago (or even in some Countries Today)
I am also a ex christian agnostic , however I do practise subordination to some levels of nature (which I may call God) being greater than I and therefore My thankfulness is aimed at nature/awe of the universe/world/science and to the undiscovered mysteries yet to be discovered. I just have to loook out at the sky at night and smile and just have that awe and thankfulness of what a great planet/universe/world I live in (albeit subjective and I may just be thanking my own soul but it still feels good!)
An interesting post. In some ways, I’m thankful that it wasn’t the problem of evil that led me out of belief. For me, it was the fact that there were multiple religions in the world with contradictory visions, the obvious (at least to me) human origins and limitations of the Bible, and the complete lack of empirical evidence for anything supernatural. My journey was very gradual and relatively painless. The problem of evil path sounds like a painful one.
Your best email since I became a member, thank you.
Jeff Miller
Very interesting observation. I’ve also gone from being a ‘true believer’ to an atheist. Now, I’m back to a believer, but not in a personal God who rewards some and with-holds from others; kind of like a Santa Claus god who if you ask in the right way or belong to the right church He will answer you. To me God is life so I can thank Life for giving me not only what I have but also for the opportunity to live it anyway I want. No ‘good’ no ‘bad’, no ‘right’ no ‘wrong’, just Life. I think I’ve arrived at this from reading Joel S. Goldsmith’s books and helped along by reading books like yours where I can break away from the belief that the Bible, or for that matter any Scripture, is the final word on anything. Thanks for that!!!! Jim
No ‘good,’ no ‘bad,’ no ‘right,’ and no ‘wrong’? You obviously have no kids!
Bart,
Sometimes, when I read your comments, I realize how similar our lives and backgrounds have been. Like you I feel grateful for being alive (not always, of course), and for being so inexplicably lucky. Never have been able to justify it or understand my own good fortune. Where we part company, and I don’t mean to imply any criticism here, is in the awareness, or lack thereof, of reality beyond the boundaries of earthly existence. Maybe it’s just a matter of how people are wired and what they’ve experienced. For me, sensing the divine (meaning God) has been part of my consciousness from early childhood. It has delivered me from destruction on multiple occasions, right up to retirement and into the joys of what you describe so well about Thanksgiving and Christmas.
Happy Holydays!
D.C. Smith
Your journey reminds me of that of Charles Templeton who started out as a co-evangelist with Billy Graham and then became an agnostic because of the theodicy problem of why God lets children starve in Africa when just a little rain would help solve some of that starvation. My understanding is that even though Templeton became an agnostic, he really missed not having Someone to whom he could express thanks and missed what had been his “personal relationship” with God even if this relationship was just a figment of his imagination. I know. I know. I have simplified this way too much, but you probably get the point. You usually do. My guess is that both Templeton and you are right, but one is bound to miss the idea of having a personal relationship with the most powerful force in the universe. That idea would be a hard one to give up.
God as an “idea” is not so hard to imagine or give up. He’s an extension of our mothers and fathers from early infancy, someone to experience intuitively, either as a positive force or something negative. It depends on our make-up as individual persons, the culture in which we live, and the way we translate what happens to us from beginning to end. Like everything else, he/she/it can be a force for good or evil.
Here here!
My understanding is that God is principle. Abstracts like surrender, release and forgiveness have produced small miracles in my life, reproduceably. Other things such as the transformations produced by mourning, experiencing fully one’s pain and acceptance seem to not be totally explained by psychology. Then there was the time I was in Texas and screamed my mother’s name twice and was heard by her in an Indiana Recovery Room (no phone.) God is also the source of all (a mystery) and the spiritual component present in all things. While I no longer see God as a capricious, anthropomorphic, bearded white guy in the sky, I do accept a higher power. Any comments?
I have no problems with that. I don’t believe so myself, but it’s a big world and people have lots of views, many of them completely plausible!
Beautifully said! For me, God also represents “a higher power,” not as an abstraction, but a personal being available to just about everyone in all sorts of ways.
Yes, I do not understand it but God is available on a personal basis.
One thing I’ve learned about life is that most of what happens to us could be worse (almost always, that is).
Another thing is that a great many people are not wired or programmed for being thankful. They seem to be missing something in their make-up as human beings. Maybe this is God’s fault and maybe it’s how they were raised, but I’m convinced that some folks are naturally inclined to certain kinds of thoughts, feelings and abilities, while others are put together differently. Some lean heavily to the right or to the left (I’m referring to the brain now), some are more calculating and cerebral or more emotional and sensitive, etc. If you’re a parent, you know what I mean.
In Bart’s case, his realization about the unfairness of life (what most folks think of as evil) has turned him away from God, whereas for the majority of people it is just the opposite. Pain and suffering propel men and women (and even children) toward God. This could also be God’s fault or just a matter of luck.
I don’t believe human beings created religion out of a sense of gratitude. They learned to cope with life’s challenges and obstacles, most of which were frightening and cruel, by turning to God, whether or not he existed. For them, like other tools they happened to discover, it seemed to work and thus became part of mankind’s collective consciousness.
It appears Bart is unique in this respect. He no longer feels the necessity of using God to survive. He’s grateful, not to anyone or anything supernatural, for being one of the lucky ones in a godless world. But has he really been tested, I wonder? Has he been trapped in a fire? shot at? saddened by the death of his dearest child? or, God forbid, something worse?
Mind you, I admire the course he’s taken. But I don’t think it’s a pathway to follow, unless, of course, you happen to be wired that way, too.
Best,
D.C.S.
I don’t think I’m unique in this. In fact, the problem of suffering has driven many, many people away from faith. Including lots of people who have themselves suffered terribly and do not understand why. So I do agree with you that suffering often (sometimes?) drives people to faith. It also drives (other) people away from faith. And I certainly don’t think that because some people turn to God when they suffer that this is an argument for either God or faith! (And I also don’t think that only people who experience terrible suffering have the right to consider the implications of terrible suffering for the existence of God or the legitimacy of faith, any more than I think that desperately impoverished people in the world’s cities are the only ones who have the right to consider the economic policies that have made them so poor and miserable).
But I also agree with you completely that different ones of us appear to be wired very differently!
I know it sounds trite, but EVERYONE IS UNIQUE! From where I stand you seem to be the rarest of human beings, a thinker with enormous gifts of insight and intellect. On the other hand, I agree with you that many people do turn away from God because of personal suffering. In general, however, this is a natural reaction against God felt in anger or overwhelming sorrow, something beyond rational calculation and not the kind of cerebral argumentation you seem to be promoting here (exhibiting?). To be sure, a great many people (not some) turning “either to God or to faith!” proves nothing about the existence either of God or the validity of their faith. It’s just a fact of life, something that’s been going on for as long as we humans have been fully conscious. I also agree that experiencing personal or collective tragedy gives no one the right to do anything, except perhaps feel the pain and react accordingly. But “considering the implications of terrible suffering” or the plight of “desperately impoverished people” has been around since before the days of Plato and has yet to do much of anything to improve the situation. (And with all due respect to Marx and Lenin, substituting government for god won’t suffice either, anymore than tinkering with “economic policies” will make the downtrodden rich and happy.)
OK, I stand corrected. I am indeed unique!!
YEP!
Suffering pushed me away from mainstream Christianity..and into a void for a long time…then I hit bottom…then I began real spiritual connection…and at that time there was incredible ….can’t think of the word…but something like coincidences and knowings and attractions. I would think of something and it would come into my life, effortlessly…and I already knew it would. I still have all those experiences…just not as frequent or intense. Serendipidy….that’s the word. I came to see that we live in an almost magical spiritual universe…but we must learn how to work with spiritual law…or break ourselves on it.
Last week I heard the mother of the young lady that walked into a spinning airplane prop say that God doesn’t test anyone beyond what they are able to bear. My thought was why test? Is not the test when God knows if you can bear it just a form of unnecessary torture?
I can’t remember who said it (Stendhal?), “The only excuse for God is that he doesn’t exist.”
H.S.
Yes, indeed. Or, that he’s not able to do the impossible.
Bart.
I genuinely like you and admire you but can you not regard Christianity and God as something that each and every one of us “create”?
And then can you not worship (i.e. “acknowledge the worth of”) God not as an external being but as “the Good” or “Value”.
There are many who simply cannot see value in Life at all. Be a beacon of hope for those.
Be a Christian.
Kind Regards
DominickG
Aw, Bart, I myself just thank God for my *many* blessings as usual, and then ( lol!) beg His forgiveness for not actually believing in His existence.
I have, over the years, given good, long, hard tries to a couple of different approaches to the problem. In the end, I’ve settled for a pretty fair slug of evangelical practice without any of the usual evangelical belief that normally undergirds such practices. It seems pretty odd to me. But, unlike some of the more normal approaches I’ve tried (notably, a six year stint with the Unitarians in my wayward youth), practice without belief has worked ok for me.
Your quitting church after a loss of faith does, however, strike me as being a lot more straightforward. 🙂