Sometimes people get upset because I deal with the problem of suffering even though I don’t seem to be experiencing any severe pain and misery myself. Here is an example of the kind of comment I occasionally receive, this from someone commenting to me on Facebook a couple of days ago:
“Dude, in a world of suffering, you claim doubts in deity because you live the privileged life of a UNC professor. If you lived in a 40-year-old trailer in Tarboro, I’d take you more seriously. And you even charge people to read your self-indulgent crap. Just for the record, I’m a non-theist. But I’m not a hypocrite.”
I take comments like this very seriously. Even though I recognize that it is (needlessly?) hostile, my sense is that a lot of people who feel this way are themselves experiencing real hardship and find it offensive that I would have the gall to talk about issues of pain and suffering. And so I’m not at all inclined to reply in kind, with hostility.
But I do want to say a few things about this kind of comment. Before doing so, though, I should say that my *harshest* critics along these lines (the ones I know about) are actually people even better off than me who have castigated me for leading a privileged life and having the audacity to speak about suffering, with the assumption that they themselves have much greater insights – even though they also have much greater privileges. I won’t name names, but believe me, I can. And *that* is what I would call real hypocrisy!
But apart from people of that ilk, I think it is an important issue and worth addressing. When I first received this comment on Facebook I had a number of conflicted and conflicting responses. My first response involved a series of rather severe expletives. No need to go into that here…. My next response was “Dude, you don’t know the first *thing* about my life, so what are you talking about?” The idea that UNC professors don’t suffer is outrageous. But there is no need for me to go there either. I can say up front that I prefer not to go into the details of how I’ve suffered in life; but I can also say that it is absolutely true that however much I’ve suffered before (and of course I have. Is there someone who hasn’t???), I do have a very good life right now and I am very grateful for it.
My next response was more considered, and I’m not done having it yet. I’m thinking through the issues, as I do whenever I face this kind of hostile reaction. Here are some of the things I’m thinking of:
• It does seem to me that even people who are not suffering in extremis – for example, starving to death in a slum outside of Mexico City – have the right to think about people who *do* suffer and to ask what their suffering can tell us about the world we live in and about whether there is a caring and powerful God who is in control of it. All of us, whatever our personal situations may be, need (in my opinion) to think about what we believe about this world, and this life, and the existence of a divine being. And none of us can do so by being someone other than who we are. I am who I am, so are you, and so is this person registering a complaint. And I don’t think any of us should be disallowed from thinking about the world and life as a result of who we are.
• Relatedly I also don’t think I should be disallowed from saying what I have to say, any more than any other living, breathing human being, of whatever circumstances, who reflects on life based both on her own experiences and those of others who are either more or less fortunate than she. And surely we do want people both to think and to think not simply in light of their own relative prosperity, but also in light of the hardships experienced by others.
• In my debates on the meaning of suffering with Dinesh D’Souza, he sometimes would raise a point like this person on Facebook, and stress that people who suffer are precisely the ones who are more likely to turn to a divine being, so that it doesn’t make sense for me to think about their suffering and turn *away* from a divine being. I think it’s an interesting point. But even though I’m concerned about people who suffering terribly, I don’t think that they necessarily have to dictate what my views about suffering, or about a divine being, should be.
• I’ve tried to think of an analogy. The person who is suffering from gross economic injustice and is, as a result, living in poverty: is that person necessarily better qualified to establish the policy for the International Monetary Fund than someone else? Or to set governmental economic policy for his country? I’m not sure that the person suffering is the only one allowed to think about the solutions to the problem of suffering, or the implications of the problem of suffering with respect to the existence of God.
• I think my bottom line is that I absolutely do not think that my views of suffering should be imposed on those who have different views, especially if they themselves are suffering more intensely than me. But I do think that my reflections on others who are far less fortunate than I should dictate how I myself behave in the world. I do not know if I’m a hypocrite or not, but I certainly try not to be.
And my ultimate view of suffering is that we are much better served to have a *response* to suffering rather than a ready *answer* for it. I think we should all do what we can to help others in need. If I’m hypocritical, so be it. But I’m not going to stop responding to people in need, or to stop thinking about the religious implications of their being in need – for example, by pulling into my shell and enjoying all the good things I have without giving a damn about others – simply because someone might think that I have no right to do so as someone who has a very good life.
In any event, those are some of my reflections as of now. More will probably come as I think more about it.
I would say it takes a particularly self-absorbed type to conclude that people should only consider their own experiences when pondering important questions about reality. It’s certainly true that you’ve only ever been you, and a full appreciation of how the most intense privation colors ones views about the existence of God will necessarily elude you. That shouldn’t mean your considerations never travel beyond your own office.
On a somewhat related note, I was thinking about this subject a few nights ago, and it occurred to me that the people who are the quickest to dismiss the problem of suffering with platitudes like “we can only appreciate the light when we’ve experienced the darkness” are revealing their own privileged status. Basically, I think it takes a sheltered sort of existence, free from the most profound miseries brought on by war, famine, and disease to take such a pat view of suffering. I don’t want to minimize the faith of those who DO experience such misery, but I would be interested in knowing whether they dismiss the problem of suffering so quickly. (Would someone who’s witnessed horrors like the mutilation of children, the rape of civilian women, the impressment of child soldiers, and the starvation of countless babies say we need ALL of that crap in its fullness just to appreciate the light of God?)
In response to the reader’s comment about charging members to read this blog, it should be noted that all membership fees go towards charities that fight homelessness and poverty, and thus help to alleviate suffering.
Hey Dude: (just kidding) Every body on the planet suffers; physically, mentally, economically. Some suffer to please a deity so they get a better seat in heaven. The point is YOU are suffering. You see others suffering and that has a very intense pain that a pill can’t take away. Let the moron think what he/she likes. The proceeds from this blog are helping…You and your readers are TRYING to make a difference. Its helping the readers, its helping you by sharing and if several needy people have something to eat, or clothes to wear or what ever. There is an old Jewish saying: “He who saves one Jew, saves the world”. I think this is what is going on here.
While reading your comments the thought struck me that we haven’t defined the meaning of suffering. Most will think of the usual forms: physical pain, hunger, homelessness, etc. I think however that the privileged also suffer, though perhaps in ways we do not always consider to be suffering. Suffering is the experience of everyone.
I agree with you completely, though – out of concern for my own future – I probably don’t donate nearly as large a percentage of what I have as you do to aid those in need.
I’m thinking about that claim that people who are suffering are the most likely to cling to faith in God. I’ve seen a number of programs on “Dateline” and “48 Hours” where someone who’s been wrongly imprisoned for 20 years or more, and has finally been freed, gushes over his gratitude to God for his release (despite “God’s” having allowed the 20+ years of undeserved suffering). I’m wondering whether people in that situation fake this attitude, because they know the networks will lap it up?
Bart. Please don’t take this “gentleman’s” comments personally. As a matter of fact, don’t ever take anything someone says about you personally. Tough to do when you have a target on your back — as you do in your capacity as a public figure — but what does he or any of us really know about you? About your heart? About your intentions? Don’t let his uniformed anger rile you. I suspect it really has little to do with Bart Ehrman.
Are you a “hypocrite?” Of course you are; we all are. Hypocrisy is something like bad gas. Being hypocritical is a part of the human condition. We try to avoid it, but slips do happen. The best we can is to take ownership of our misguided words and, if necessary, apologize to those who like to be offended. BTW, I’ve never sensed that would be a problem for you. And this commentator’s argument for your supposed hypocrisy was pure gibberish.
Regarding the charge “for your indulgent crap,” I say nonsense! Although this fee is unusual, I completely trust that you are an ethical man and all monies go to worthy causes. But even if they went directly to the Bart Ehrman Single Malt Fund, I would still pay it. The content is provocative, informative and equals what I would pay for a good book. An excellent value!
Finally, suffering, too, is like gas. We all have it. And, unless we are sociopaths, we re-experience this pain when faced with the misfortunes of others. Yes, our efforts to ameliorate suffering in this world are almost always inadequate; but we do the best we can, don’t we? Having heard you talk about your personal reaction to suffering, I suspect you do more than most.
Let this Facebook comment go. It’s not worth your time.
At the risk of coming off like an Ehrman fanboy, I must say that the Facebook “trailer in Tarboro” commenter is way off-base. I don’t find this site to be self-indulgent at all. On the contrary, it is educational and it funds charity. I think it’s a winning concept all around. I have learned a great deal as a subscriber and I applaud Dr. Ehrman’s concern for his fellow man. I see nothing resembling hypocrisy.
Great post, Bart. Your Facebook poster’s argument is like saying that people with an illness are the only ones who should have a say in what the cure for that illness is–a healthy doctor’s research into a cure wouldn’t be valid because the doctor herself doesn’t suffer from the illness.
Great analogy!
The “you charge people to read your self indulgent crap” line is pretty damned ironic, considering all the money from this site goes to charity. What a dipshit.
Some of my own personal philosophy come from the lyrics of the band Rush. In their song, “Roll the Bones” the lyrics go,
“Faith as cold as ice,
why are little ones born only to suffer,
for the want of immunity or a bowl of rice?
Well who would hold a price, on the heads of the innocent children,
if there was some immortal power who controlled the dice?”
Suffering is in many ways though a subjective thing and how we measure it’s degree is often in comparison within our given class and society….First world problems vs. Third world problems for example.
I had a daughter who was born with severe brain damage due to prolonged oxygen depletion during delivery and saw her suffering and suffered with her until she passed away last fall at the age of 4.
While this chain of events caused me to question and eventually turn away from my Christian faith, on the other side it made me more compassionate and giving towards ministries and medical facilities that focus on children in similar life-threatening and disadvantaged situations.
I’m so sorry to hear about your daughter. That must have been completely devastating. All best wishes,
– BDE
Dr. Ehrman, I’m sorry someone felt he had to unload on you.
For the record, I did live ten years in a decrepit 40-foot single-wide off the grid. So what? Actually I think I gained a lot from the experience.
I don’t think one has to be suffering to recognize suffering and to be saddened by it. I don’t think one needs to be the one suffering to demand that religion be able to account for that suffering. I do understand that someone who is suffering may seek comfort in a religion’s promise of a better afterlife and/or personal love from some spiritual being. I think such a person might resent what he or she sees as a threat to those comforting beliefs.
But hypocrisy has nothing to do with it. All of us are subject to the realities of the human condition. Life is short and often unfair. Suffering exists.
I saw that comment on your FB page and it really ticked me off. First, this poster obviously has no idea that you generously and continuously give proceeds to charity. Second, what he’s saying makes no sense. Do you have to be homeless and hungry to reflect on the nature of suffering and want to alleviate it? I guess we’ll have to muzzle the politicians, businesspeople, doctors, and the pope with his expensive red shoes and golden cathedrals. Re the Dinesh point: Is he saying the deeper a person suffers, the more she needs to believe in a delusion that will make her feel better…and it’s wrong of you to take that away from her? That reminds me of the exchange you two had during that 2010 debate when he said it is “a better, practical remedy for suffering” to assure a parent who has lost a child that they’ll see their son again in heaven, rather than your honest, down-to-earth approach–“don’t give platitudes…show your human support for a fellow human being. Put your arm around a person and tell them you feel for them and that you love them and that you are there for them.”
Now *that’s* responding to someone in need, and it’s the opposite of hypocritical. Dammit.
The idea that only people currently suffering can legitimately comment on how society should respond to it is bizarre. If the absence of suffering supposedly disqualifies one from comment, so also should too much suffering–since this too would distort your view on the issues. For example, I’m not sure basing our capital punishment laws exclusively on the preference of the families of victims is a good approach.
This person probably sees you as like a rich ruler who inherited everything and never experienced substantial suffering in their life and upbringing but who thinks he can really understand the suffering in his kingdom. This is clearly a false view of you!
All have experienced real suffering in some way, even if for a short time. Some (many) have suffered beyond belief and for an extended period of time or for their lifetime. But to say those who haven’t experienced a lifetime of pain, but only a period of pain in the past, can’t comment on it is like saying a person formerly married but now single can’t say anything meaninngful about marriage. The single person who was married for a short time can say alot of what it’s like to be married just as the person who suffered in the past can still say alot about suffering even if they are currently not suffering. But I also recall hearing a popular never married marriage councellor say “you don’t have to drink poison to know it will kill you.” Applied in this case, I think you don’t have to suffer your whole life to know what it would be like (since all have suffered at one point)…but I could be wrong
Comparison of the experiences of suffering is ridiculous! Individuals can never expect to have anything like an objective view of their own experiences, let alone those of others. For example, today my iPad crashed (possibly irretrievably, nearly one month after losing my job incidentally) and it seems like a bigger source of stress than the entire LAST 5 YEARS OF CANCER TREATMENTS! But, how can I compare ANY of that to what someone trying to scrape together anything like survival in Faluja is going through? What if that person in Faluja is thinking “Oh, no big deal. I have to drink dirty water again.” To consider the problem of suffering we HAVE to step outside our own experiences with it and accept that its common to us all, no matter how good or bad we have it. Your mother’s hang nail may be worse for her than, for example, hanging by nails from a tree would be for a given ancient Jew (I’m thinking one of the few who survived here…)
I like the way you are always thinking things through and tweaking your views. A lot of the criticism I hear, directed your way, consists mostly of “ad hominem” attacks, some quite nasty, directed against you for not being a “believer” rather than directed toward the content of what you write. An example I heard recently is that you think you know more than Jesus knows given without any supporting evidence and that you write for agnostics, atheists, and heretics and the Bible is written for believers again given with no supporting evidence. Somehow, your critical analysis gets misinterpreted as an attempt to debunk Christianity rather than an attempt to understand it. I have no idea how you endure these types of attacks. It sure looks like “suffering” to me.
Bart –
This comment from a critic of your reminds me of something I heard Hillary Clinton once say – “If you don’t want to be criticized, don’t get out of bed in the morning”. I think the price you pay operating a daily blog the way you do is that a certain minority of individuals (lets hope less than 1%) will attack you in a hostile fashion occasionally for something you say. One would hope that you would focus on the majority of readers (lets hope 99%) that are benefiting from your years of scholarly research, as well as your sharing of personal beliefs, even if they conscientiously do not agree with every opinion you hold.
As a coach of mine used to say “Shake it off and move on”.
Obviously this person has never read “God’s Problem”. I would suggest he read it.
Suffering does not always automatically grant wisdom and insight…but it can. When I had post partum depression as a 25 year old, I immediately understood something of the nature of mental illness. I had always disparaged depressed people as weaklings and had seen myself as very strong. During the year long illness, it was interesting to see what helped and what hindered recovery, insights which made me a better nurse eventually. Later suffering in life caused me to “hit a bottom” or increase stress to a point where I almost totally transformed, just like evolution in nature. But of course, that suffering was caused by my prejudiced understandings about females and my traditional Christian beliefs…as opposed to being outwardly induced. It caused me to reject everything I had been taught and to become a seeker of truth…my truth as I intuitively know it. And that has made all the difference…for the better. Life is so much more of an adventure.
The hostile allegations in the e-mail are not only mean-spirited but also absurd, and indicative of insufficient reflection on profoundly important matters. They deserve no credit whatsoever, and Bart should ignore them. Here are just a few considerations that demonstrate the inane character of the writer’s comments, some of which have already been registered by Bart, and perhaps by others replying to this post. I hope, if possible, to express them a little more explicitly or in my own way, or at least to reinforce the obvious. (Repetitio mater memoriae.)
Prosperous people are in a better position than most others to help those in need, because they have necessary resources that poor people lack. Donating some of those resources–and Bart has donated a great deal of his personal resources with no fanfare–to help ameliorate the suffering that comes with extreme poverty is to be appreciated, not insulted. Would it be better if Bart or other people of means simply hoarded their money and enjoyed their relatively fortunate and comfortable circumstances with no concern for, or effort to ameliorate, the plight of those who suffer from desperate need? (I know that Bart has already sufficiently addressed this question in this post.) To claim so would be preposterous. It is worth noting also that even if Bart (or anyone else) were contributing to relief for the poor from totally self-regarding motives (e.g. praise, awards, social standing, a mansion in Heaven)–as is definitely not the case–his gift would no less improve the material conditions of the destitute than if he had given for the most impeccable and charitable motives imaginable. Help is help, and the thoughts and motives of the helper are comparatively irrelevant to those who desperately need it. If I give a coat to someone standing outside in the cold without one, but do so merely to evoke the admiration of bystanders or friends, the coat still warms its recipient just as well as if I had given it from selfless motives: and that is the most important and urgent thing.
The assertion that Bart would have to live in extreme, squalid, and intractable suffering and poverty in order to ascertain that there is a terrible problem of suffering in the world, and that people who suffer from extreme poverty need help, is likewise preposterous. Nor is there any reason in any of this writer’s vacuous comments why Bart should refrain from reflecting, and from sharing with others, the concomitant theological consideration that a good, omnipotent god of grace, mercy, and love would have spared his creatures at least some of their more extreme sufferings. I consider this problem of suffering, and its implications about the character of God, of very great importance both intellectually and practically. Communicating his considered ideas about the problem of suffering–what he has rightly called “God’s Problem”–is a service to others, and anything but “self-indulgent crap” (and I need not repeat the fact that the charge for access to this site goes entirely and directly to improve the lot of terribly poor and suffering people).
A different, and more unusual, point that is important point for me, at least, is that misguided religion and belief in God can cause a lot of suffering in themselves. I was inculcated with the idea that the inerrant words of the Bible (as interpreted by the fundamentalist “spiritual” leaders of my childhood and youth) are the perfect, complete, and final answer to all human questions about life and the universe. All this can seriously thwart the desire to learn and confuse ignorant religious believers who would benefit from sound information about the Bible and the understanding that it is a totally human, not divine, book. Part of the fundamentalist world-view is that consummate, eternal torture is the destiny of most human beings. I can tell you from bitter experience that this belief in Hell, at least in my case, caused suffering amounting to intense, chronic torture on Earth and instilled in me a profound pessimism that largely endures to this day. Thus, for me, the knowledge about the Bible that comes from Bart’s work is extraordinary salutary. The truth, to some extent, has set me free in a religious sense, and much of this truth results from Bart’s sharing his expert knowledge with us.