Browsing through posts I made (exactly) six years ago, I came across this one (which deals with a subject I’ll be addressing in my new book) about Paul’s view of the future resurrection. What I thought I thought about that issue *before* I started doing the hardcore research for my book on the afterlife is very similar to how I still think now. I hope that doesn’t just mean I’m stubborn! Here is the perceptive question and my response:
******************************
QUESTION:
What is a BODILY resurrection without the flesh? Don’t the early Christians (and Paul) think the flesh (the corpse) didn’t matter anymore and could be left behind, rotting and decomposing? Isn’t it all about the spirit finally getting this new, better, perfect, divine ‘body’?
Addendum: The Greek for ‘spiritual’ (like in spiritual body) is pneumatikos, right? According to Strong’s that means: pertaining to wind or breath, windy, exposed to the wind, blowing. Now those wouldn’t be obvious words to describe something physical or made out of matter, would it? They seems to rather define something ‘intangible’
RESPONSE:
OK, I’ve been getting a lot of questions along these lines (some on the blog itself). So I need to try to clarify the whole matter. It’s not easy, for a variety of reasons. But I’ll do my best.
First thing to stress: the ancient apocalyptic view of the human that Paul had is not the view of the human that WE have. This is one instance where it becomes crystal clear that we have to try to think in a way that we are decidedly not accustomed to if we want to understand Paul. For US, the body is made of flesh, so when we speak of flesh, we speak of the body. For Paul, the flesh and the body were two different things. That’s because, for him, “flesh” does not refer to what WE refer to when we refer to flesh. That is, we think of it as the meat that is hanging on our bones; but that is not what Paul is referring to. He does, of course, know that there is meat hanging on our bones, but that is what he thinks of as our body. It is not our flesh. “Flesh” is a technical term for Paul. It is the bad side of being human. It is that part of the human that has been corrupted by sin and is alienated from God. The flesh is the reason we cannot please God even by keeping the Law. Because sin, using the flesh, forces us to do things in opposition to God. The flesh needs to be destroyed. But since the flesh is not the same thing as the body, that does *not* mean that the body has to be destroyed. The body has to be redeemed, not destroyed. (See how Paul talks about “flesh” in Romans 6-8)
Second point. In ancient ways of thinking, the body was not the ONLY material part of a human. Humans also have souls and spirits. And for ancient people, souls and spirits were MATERIAL entities, not IMMATERIAL entities (as they are for us). For *us* the difference between soul and body is visible/invisible or material/immaterial or substantial/insubstantial. That’s not how the ancients saw it. For the ancients, soul and spirit were made up of *stuff*. They were material entities. But their material was much finer, more refined, than the clunky shell of our body.
And so, if an ancient apocalypticist like Paul talked about a spiritual body, he meant a body that is no longer made up of just this clunky meat, it is a body of a more refined substance; it is still matter, but it is a different kind of matter. When Paul thought Jesus was physically raised from the dead, that was NOT a contradiction to his claim that Jesus had a spiritual body at the resurrection. Spiritual bodies *were* physical. We too will be raised (for Paul) into spiritual bodies. At that time we will not have “flesh,” because sin will no longer have any role to play in our existence. But when he says this, he means it in the ancient, not the modern, sense.
If you want to read up on ancient understandings of body, flesh, spirit, soul (especially as these are physical entities, not immaterial), I’d suggest you read the book by my friend Dale Martin, professor of NT at Yale, The Corinthian Body.
Later Christian theologians who were NOT raised in Jewish apocalyptic thinking did not make this distinction that Paul made between body and flesh, leading to all sorts of confusions. They stressed the “resurrection of the flesh,” which for Paul would have been nonsense. For Paul, flesh and blood do not inherit the kingdom of God. They are done away with, because people are raised in spiritual bodies, just as Christ was. But later theologians (for example, Tertullian) did not make this distinction and stressed that it is precisely the “flesh” that comes to be raised. By that, he meant what Paul meant when he talked about “body.”
One of the ironies that was created is that later theologians stressed the resurrection of the flesh thinking that they were advocating Paul’s view, e.g., against Gnostics. In fact, they were not advocating Paul’s view at all, since Paul did not think the flesh would be raised.
One text where this is particularly interesting is the pseudepigraphic (i.e., forged) 3 Corinthians, where, as my student Benjamin White has shown, in an important article recently, the author, claiming to be Paul, tries to wrest Paul away from the Gnostics precisely by stressing that the flesh is all important before God and will be raised. Whoops. That’s not Paul’s view. But this later second century author was not trained in Jewish apocalyptic thinking, and so simply didn’t know that.
When people say Pharisees believed in resurrection but Sadducees did not believe in resurrection, for Pharisees, when were people resurrected?
If all we can come up with is people thinking Jesus was Elijah, that’s reincarnation.
If you say they believed in reincarnation and body stealing (Jesus really is John the Baptist–John the Baptist reincarnating in the body of Jesus instead of reincarnating into a new born), that would be interesting.
Finally, when Jesus shows himself to Thomas, he is showing him body only and not flesh?
The resurrection would come at the end of time.
The Pharisees believed pretty much everything the first Christians believed, with the one important exception that the Pharisees did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah and Jesus had not been already resurrected.
Thank you but Bart and you are not answering the question that makes this thread a thumbs up or thumbs down: When Doubting Thomas was convinced, “OMG, you have been resurrected,” by touching the flesh/material soul, material spirit where he was pierced in the side, that was more than body without sin but material flesh over bones, just like Lazarus, yes?
For the original post by Bart to be accepted, one and Paul would have to reject Lazarus and Thomas touching flesh, yes?
I”m not sure what you’re asking. You seem to be asking of the story in the Gospel of John subscribes to the view of the flesh found in the writings of Paul. The answer’s no. The problem is that you’re not differentiating between what Paul means by “flesh” and by “body.” He certainly thought, in my opinion, that jThomas owuld have been able to touch Jesus’ body, yes. But Jesus, for Paul, didn’t have “flesh” — that sinful part of the self that is indwelt and empowered by sin. (you can’t conflate flesh and body for many passages in Paul)
Bart::
The Gospel of John does not subscribe to the view of the flesh found in the writings of Paul, not in the Doubting Thomas selection and not in the Raising of Lazarus selection.
Steefen:
Luke 24: 38-43
With these verses Jesus shows them his hands and feet after his resurrection. Furthermore, he asks for something to eat and eats fish.
Jesus is demonstrating he is present in the flesh. So, either we add that Luke does not subscribe to the view of the flesh found in the writings of Paul or the spirit body without sinful flesh looks like flesh and that flesh can be touched by the flesh of food (fish)–since in the Lukan version they look at Jesus wounds instead of touching them.
Bart:
At that time we will not have “flesh,” because sin will no longer have any role to play in our existence.
Steefen
In the Lukan account Jesus has flesh because the flesh of the fish touches the flesh of his tongue. He chews, swallows, and digests the fish.
How do we avoid adding that Luke does not subscribe to the view of the flesh found in the writings of Paul?
(It’s one thing to say the gospel of John came so far after Paul, but that is not the case with the gospel of Luke.)
No, Luke doesn’t hold Paul’s view either. Only Paul does!
You may say Jesus was without sin, so he had no corrupted flesh (if you choose to believe that baseless claim of faith, not fact) but you cannot say that about Lazarus and his resurrection.
Jesus’ sin was to lead the Jews (and Christians) astray with his Bread and Wine – Body and Blood request for remembrance which point to verses that were prohibitions against doing that because they call up desecration (Psalm 106: 38), victory of enemies over God’s people (Deut.28: 53, 55) , stress of the siege of enemies (Jer 19: 9), the destruction of God’s people (Lamentations 4: 10), and separation of God from God’s people (Leviticus 17: 10-11). The sin of Jesus is writ large (clear and obvious).
Lazarus wasn’t resurrected.
This is really fascinating. We had a brief back and forth about something similar last month, but I’d like to follow up with something I forgot to ask at the time.
In your view, was Paul bi-partite (body and soul/spirit) or tri-partite (body, soul, and spirit), and do you think his view was shared by Jewish apocalyptics and early Christians?
My guess is bipartite, body and soul, corresponding with his dualistic views otherwise (like other apocalypticists).
That’s very interesting. So would that mean apocalypticists like Paul and others would have believed that when Jesus “gave up his spirit” on the cross, that was not just the moment that his soul departed his body, but also when the indwelling Holy Spirit did so also?
That is they believed, Jesus’ soul would have departed his body (presumably into paradise) at the moment of bodily death and then (the soul) returned “with power” (Rom1:3) a couple of days later to merge again with his body, transforming it in an instance to its post-resurrected glorious form?
Because they were apocalypticists who believed that the person was soul and body together, not soul and body separate.
Ah.. so did Jewish apocalypticists believe the soul remained with the body after it had died, and both would be resurrected at the end times?
If that’s the case, would they have understood Jesus’ “giving up his spirit” (soul leaving the body) on the cross as an unexpected occurrence? That is – they would have expected his spirit/soul to have remained with his body?
I think the normal idea is that the soul is like the “breath” we breathe. It has it’s own existence as a “thing” but it doesn’t exist outside the body once the body dies. God brings the breath back into the body when it rises from the dead. Other apocalypticists did believe somehow that the “person” could exist outside of the body. There was not one single view of such things!
Ok – now I’m really confused! Perhaps this will all be unpacked in your new book?
In Philippians 1:20-24 Paul seems to indicate that should he be put to death he would “depart and be with Christ” – thus suggesting he would continue to exist in an afterlife “with Christ”.
Was Paul, therefore, one of those apocalypticists who believed his soul would live on after his body died?
Yes, Paul developed a view taht the soul would live on after death in an interim state before the resurrection; I’ll have a discussion of this in my book.
Thanks Bart. Would you say that the gospel writers shared this view – and in particular – did they believe Jesus’ soul lived on after his body died, departed and went to the heavenly realm before returning as the first of the resurrection?
It’s hard to know what they thought; they may have believed he was simply “dead” like everyone else, either temporarily in SHeol or simply deceased.
In his commentary on John 13.21.128, Origen says the Stoics “are not ashamed to say that since God is a body he is also subject to corruption, but they say his body is pneumatic (πνευματικόν) and like ether, especially in the reasoning capacity of his soul.”
In Pseudo-Plutarch Placita Philosophorum 4.3 the section is entitled:
“WHETHER THE SOUL BE A BODY, AND WHAT IS THE NATURE AND ESSENCE OF IT.”
“ALL those that have been named by me do affirm that the soul itself is incorporeal, and by its own nature is in a perpetual motion, and in its own essence is an intelligent substance, and the actuality of a natural organical body which has life. The followers of Anaxagoras, that it is airy and a body. The Stoics, that it is a hot breath. Democritus, that it is a fiery composition of things which are perceptible by reason, the same having their forms spherical and without an inflaming faculty; and it is a body. Epicurus, that it is constituted of four qualities, of a fiery quality, of an aerial quality, a pneumatical (πνευματικοῦ), and of a fourth quality which hath no name, but it contains the virtue of the sense.”
So yeah, I think it’s pretty clear Paul wasn’t talking about physically raised corpses.
Dr Bart Ehrman I’m a little confused by two contradictory verses in the Bible about what happens after death..the first verse says.. .after death judgement follows…
The second verse says after death the dead will remain dead until the endtime then they will be raised
Can you clarify please.
Sorry — I’m not sure which verses you’re talking about.
“O, that this too too solid flesh would melt
Thaw and resolve itself into a dew!
Or that the Everlasting had not fix’d
His canon ‘gainst self-slaughter! O God! God!
How weary, stale, flat and unprofitable,
Seem to me all the uses of this world!
Fie on’t! ah fie! ’tis an unweeded garden,
That grows to seed; things rank and gross in nature
Possess it merely. That it should come to this!”
I think Paul would find points of understanding here.
And after all, so do most of us, sometimes. We love and hate the flesh at the same time. Life is a contradiction, and so is our attitude towards it. But is that life’s fault or ours (that we are underlings)?
Okay, that was really interesting. Two questions. First, I see that Martin’s book came out in 1999. Is there now broad agreement on these ideas or is this debated? Second, is there a shorter, less technical article summarizing his argument that you could recommend? A quick search on the internet did not turn up such a thing, although I see he has videos of his lectures available. Here is a link if anyone is interested and if links are allowed: https://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/rlst-152/lecture-1. Some of his reading assignments are from a textbook by some guy named Ehrman. 🙂
No, I don’t know of a shorter less technical explanation; but I think his book is pretty accessible. I’m not really sure if this is a consensus view or not.
This really clarifies Paul”s teaching for me. I was having a hard time justifying faith if I had to believe in a corpse coming back to life. I bought and read Dale Martin’s “Biblical Truths” and am looking forward to getting a copy of “Corinthian Body”. He uses both historical criticism and good theological interpretation.
Is your position, Jesus did not read Greek?
Jesus did read Greek and incorporated what he learned into his own teachings.
Jesus Ben Sira was a scribe. His grandson wrote down his teachings in Greek.
Forgive your neighbor’s injustice; then when you pray, your own sins will be forgiven.
The Wisdom of Jesus Ben Sira / Sirach 28: 2
When you stand to pray, forgive anyone against whom you have a grievance, so that your heavenly Father may in turn forgive you your transgressions.
Mark 11: 25
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Matthew 6: 12
Build Treasures I
Store up almsgiving in your treasure house, and it will save you from every evil;
better than a stout shield and a sturdy spear.
It will fight for you against the foe.
Sirach 29: 12-13
Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth where moth and decay destroy and thieves break in and steal.
But store up treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor decay destroy, nor thieves break in and steal.
For where your treasure is, there also will your heart be.
Matthew 6: 19-21
Build Treasures II
A man may become rich through a miser’s life…
When he says: “I have found rest, now I will feast on my possessions,”
he does not know how long it will be till he dies and leaves them to others.
Sira 11: 18-19
Then he told them a parable. There was a rich man whose land produced a bountiful harvest.
He asked himself, “What shall I do, for I do not have space to store my harvest?”
And he said, “This is what I shall do: I shall tear down my barns and build larger ones. There I shall store all my grain and other goods
and I shall say to myself, ‘Now as for you, you have so many good things stored up for many years, rest, eat, drink, be merry!’”
But God said to him, “You fool, this night your life will be demanded of you; and the things you have prepared, to whom will they belong?”
Thus will it be for the one who stores up treasure for himself but is not rich in what matters to God.”
Luke 12: 16- 21
Yes, my view is that an impoverished day-laborer from rural Galilee would not have been able to read Greek.
I’m sure the historical Jesus wasn’t educated in Greek, but I’d be terribly surprised if Jesus could not, at the very least, speak and understand some very broken Greek, and possibly be able to read snippets of Greek words and phrases. But nothing even close to the level of the Greek we find in the NT.
By way of analogy, I can think of, for example, the English skills of a villager in the middle India.
I agree. I believe Jesus would’ve at least known some broken Greek via a natural diffusion of the language.
For hundreds of years, Galilee was occupied by various Greek speaking empires, which would have had soldiers marching through the land. Further, the Greek speaking diaspora would travel to Jerusalem coming and going from all directions; undoubtedly some travelled through Galilee.
Being in Nazarus, he would’ve also had a good chance to pick up some Greek from Sepphoris. The people of Nazarus would’ve needed to purchase supplies and sell goods. It is more likely that rural folk travelled to the city for this purpose than it is for merchants to have an Amazon-like delivery service to the rural areas. A merchant would not know when you needed a hammer or new clothes.
The Norman conquest of England is a good parallel to note. Aristocrats would speak Old Norman, which the lower classes picked up, and it transformed Old English to Middle English. This is why we have many many French (Latin) words in our Germanic language.
If you’re genuinely interested in this question, I’d suggest you read the books on Galilee by Mark Chancey. He argues that Greek would have been known to the elite in major cities in Galilee, but not broadly among the general population. I think he is surely right. (He gives the evidence, of course)
First, thanks for letting me know about the book!
Secondly, my apologies. I should correct myself. I meant to say that Jesus would probably at least know some words and broken Greek phrases; in particular, I think it’s likely Galileans would’ve over the centuries picked up words and phrases on military and merchantile topics. I wouldn’t go so far as to say it is probable that he could communicate to an great extent in Greek.
Is the book called “The Myth of a Gentile Galilee”? Google and many sites are blocked where I now live, so I can’t immediately find a list of all the books he authored. I’m also unlikely to get a book on religion through customs either. I’ll have to see if I can purchase it electronically.
That book does have a lot of what I’m interested in. Unfortunately, it can’t answer this question. Reading the half of the Introduction that is available on Amazon, Chancey says “I am not here trying to resolve such questions as how widely Greek was used…” He even goes on to say that the region is too small to allow for isolation of groups. That is to say that the small pagan population would have some influence on the Jews of Galilee.
I would be interested in what he says to say about the Hasmonean dynasty, but it looks like it is only 7 pages. My interest comes from this map: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasmonean_dynasty#/media/File:Hasmonean_kingdom.jpg. From this map, I’m guessing that there is a slowly moving border over circa 50(?) years thus I surmise all types of Seleucid troops (front line, reserves, camps, supply routes) would have Greek speakers in contact with the urban and rural population of Galilee leaving a recent impression on the Galileans of the first century.
One should also consider the influence of trade routes. According to the sole Amazon reviewer of Chancey’s book (the humour of what I just wrote is not at all lost on me), Chancey says that the trade routes in Galilee were small. Even thought small, I believe, they would still have a lasting effect over centuries of Greek influence.
I think that a linguist that has examined the influence of the language of the upper classes on the language of the lower classes would be better able to shed light on this topic.
Because of the Jesus Ben Sira verses above matching verses in Mark, Matthew, and Luke, we know verses in the gospels come not just from Mark, Matthew, Luke and Q but from Mark, Matthew, Luke, Q and the Wisdom of Jesus Ben Sira, yes?
I”m not sure what verses you’re talking about.
Professor, just look at my comment thread, the first comment I made in this comment thread shows the Jesus Ben Sira verses vs. the Matthew, Mark, and Luke verses.
With your door post sign of being our textual critic, scholar/expert in verses in the gospels, you tell us by the verses we find in the gospels.
I don’t think these verses are sufficiently similar in verbatim agreements to require a theory of literary dependence. They are simply embodying comparable views/traditions.
I don’t think these verses are sufficiently similar in verbatim agreements to require a theory of literary dependence. They are simply embodying comparable views/traditions
Bart
I don’t think these verses are sufficiently similar in verbatim agreements to require a theory of literary dependence. They are simply embodying comparable views/traditions
Steefen
–which is sufficient for the claims
a) they are not original to Jesus
b) Jesus was familiar with the views of Jesus Ben Sira or, conservatively, the gospel authors who wrote in Greek, could read Greek, were familiar with the views of Jesus Ben Sira.
How did Jesus become familiar with views written down in Greek?
Your position is that he did not read the Wisdom of Jesus Ben Sira in the language in which it was written by the grandson. Given the popularity of Jesus Ben Sira, his ideas became tradition and the biblical Jesus was aware of those particular items within the tradition and relayed them himself without crediting the scribe in the manner in which he honored the prophets.
Alternatively, the gospel authors writing gospels in Greek had read the Wisdom of Jesus Ben Sira in Greek. Instead of Jesus speaking favorably of a scribe (Jesus Ben Sira), no attribution is given leaving open the misleading possibility that they were original to Jesus in contact with God the Father.
Question: If the biblical Jesus is relaying tradition, we have cultural dependence, if added by gospel writers we have literary dependence?
Such views were in wide circulation, and known to different people in different contexts.
It’s rare to find anyone outside of philosophers or classicists who really understand how the ancients thought about “stuff”. Ancient theories varied, but there seems to have been a core theory of “stuff” and it went something like this:
There were four “elements” (fire, air, water and earth) that made up literally every material “thing” in the universe, including earth and heaven and everything in between. (However, there were a few from the Aristotelian school who proposed a fifth element, the so-called quintessence, that was found in the celestial realm and only extremely rarely found on earth.)
Aside from this material stuff there existed an immaterial power that animated everything, from the motion of the heavens to the flapping of a bee’s wings. For instance, some cultures spoke of a “soul” as the animating power in the universe. This soul made the stars and planets move. It made animals “alive”. It made objects “fall” to the ground.
Some ancients distinguished between two types of animating power, such as soul and spirit/mind. The “soul” is in literally everything in the universe, including inanimate matter, but the spirit or mind is only found in two special entities: deities and humans. For example, the “mind” is what allows us to reason, while the soul is what motivates our base instincts. Some ancients (such as Plato) further divided the animating power into three. We can call them soul, spirit and mind. In modern terms, he can think of “soul” as like our base instincts or Id, “spirit” as like our moderating beliefs or Ego, and “mind” as like our rational self or Superego.
The corruptibility and immorality of these immaterial powers depended on their number. For thinkers who proposed at least two, they saw the basest power (usually the soul) as corruptible and mortal. When the material body died this soul also died. The higher powers (spirit or mind) came from the divine, so they were incorruptible and immortal.
This is where it gets interesting. The gods (and other heavenly beings) were actually made of material stuff (depending on various schools the stuff could be quintessence or pure “fire” or both) animated by the highest power (or pure mind). So when Paul or any other ancient spoke of humans resurrected into new “spiritual” bodies they meant a body “made” of this higher incorruptible, immortal material stuff (like “light”) animated by the highest, purest power (like “mind”).
I am still struggling with NT Greek so please forgive this question if I am way off track.
In Matt 27:52 where it says και πολλα σωματα των κεκοιμημενων αγιων ηγερθησαν does this mean that Matthew misunderstood what sort of body will be raised? Or does this perhaps indicate that these were zombie like creatures who would die again and were not, as yet, resurrected in the sense that Paul believes will be the case? Is there another word instead of σωματα which Matthew might have used if he wished to convey Paul’s sense of a glorified body?
(This passage in Matthew fascinates me.)
SOMA simply means body, and when it is not further described/modified, it almost always simply means the physical body. Paul has to explain what he means by it when he talks about hhe “Pneumatic” (= “spiritual”) body. Since Matthew doesn’t further explain, he almost certainly simply means the resuscitated corpse(s). Whether they would die again later, he doesn’t say.
What fascinates you about the passage?
It fascinates because I cannot believe that this could actually have happened viz dead bodies coming from the graves and being seen walking about in Jerusalem. Surely this would have caused much greater furore and reporting (eg in other gospels). I do not believe in zombies. Since I find the passge suspect I see this as the thin end of the wedge and gives me cause to doubt so much more of the gospel story. I wonder what Matthew’s intentions/motivation/beliefs were when he penned these words
It also intrigues me because in debate with Jehovah’s Witnesses they are fearful that if it did actually happen that would have signalled, at least for them, the start of the general resurrection which they cannot countenance. As a consequence I have heard them claim that it was not the dead bodies that went into Jerusalem but people from Jerusalem who came out of the city to see the bodies/graves following the earthquake. It was in response to such claims that I determined to try to learn NT Greek so I could tease out how JWs could interpret the story in that way.
I trust this explanation gives some indication of why this so interests me.
May I ask, brenmcg, your thoughts on the passage.
My fascination with the zombie passage (Matt 27:52) was also fuelled by the contretemps played out on the internet between Mike Licona and Norman L Geisler who saw it as a battleground for their views on inerrancy.
Hi Silver, the passage is obviously a messianic prophesy and Matthew’s intention was to simply to have Jesus fulfill all prophies.
To me the passage is important for dating Matthew’s gospel. It would have originated when the church was much smaller (cult-like even) and less exposed to outside criticism. As the church began to expand to gentiles this passage could no longer be rationally defended which was why it was left out in Mark and Luke.
To me the inclusion of the passage indicates Matthew was written first and in the very early church.
Thanks for the reply, brenmcg.
Can you point me to the specific prophesy which Matthew believes is being fulfilled with the ‘Resurrection of the Saints’ in the ‘Zombie’ passage please? (Matt 27:52)
I think isaiah 26:19 is one that is often used but like all prophesy its not specific
Thanks yet again for your reply brenmcg. It’s been good to have this exchange.
The article title “Did Paul Belief in that the Fleshly Body Would be Resurrected” needs editing.
*Most* of what I post needs editing!! 🙂
Matthew 16:17:
17And Jesus answered him, ‘Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven.
Luke 24:39 {the risen Jesus speaking}:
39Look at my hands and my feet; see that it is I myself. Touch me and see; for a ghost does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.’
John 1:14:
14 And the Word became flesh and lived among us…
2 John 7:
7 Many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh…
Since “the ancient apocalyptic view” is that flesh is “the bad side of being human,” I’m having a hard time seeing how that definition comports with the verses above. What are the respective views of Jesus, Luke, and John about what “flesh” means?
Paul’s view of the “flesh” was distinctive to him: it wasn’t shared by these other authors.
Reading Karen Armstrong’s St Paul: The Apostle We Love to Hate, and she mentions that Jewish martyrs were considered to have died for the sins of the nation. Do you agree with this, and if so, would it have affected Paul’s thinking on the passion?
Yes, it’s found in the Maccabean literature. The idea of substitutionary atonement definitely has Jewish roots.
I John 4:2 says, “By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God…” So this writer has a different understanding of “flesh” than Paul, if Paul associated the “flesh” with the sinful side of a person?
Yes indeed!
I’m still a bit confused (who wouldn’t be?). Who, besides Paul, considered the body and flesh as two distinct materials? I’d like to explore these ideas further so any suggested ancient authors? Thanks!
Paul is the only one who draws the strong distinction that we know of.
Are you familiar with Dag Endsjo’s work, and if so, what is your opinion? I refer especially to his 2008 essay on “Immortal Bodies” where he argues that Greek folk tradition included the idea that very recently dead persons could be resurrected, and on rare occasions would be immortal (which included becoming divine). He cites to Herodotus’s report of Aristeas of Proconnesos as well as myths about Heracles, Asclepius, etc. His argument is that while Plato would not have accepted this, Greek tradition did, and this is why Paul has to make the argument the way he does in 1 Cor.
I find his position persuasive.
Yes, his work seems to try to stand the consensus on its head, arguing *against* the widespread view that Greeks held to the immortality of the soul but not to the resurrection of the body. So far as I can tell, he is a bit of an outlier on this point.
Dr. Ehrman,
Do you think the author of John’s gospel had a similar view of the resurrected body to Paul’s? I ask because of the part where Jesus asks Thomas to confirm its actually him by touching his wounds. Now this would seem to contradict what Paul has in mind w body (for why would a perfected body retain wounds?) Unless we’re missing the point, and what matters is that the wounds dont signify a reanimated corpse, but that its the memory (that which defines personal identity) of what Jesus’ body underwent that confirms it is him, so perhaps the story is thus meant symbolically if John agrees w Paul.
No, my view is that John’s view of the body was quite different from Paul’s; John was far more invested in showing that Jesus’ corpse was reanimated, not transformed.
Professor,
Have you wrote about Paul’s view about “original” sin. I know St Augustine uses this in his book The Co cession. I though think he misses the ancients view. Especially in the Hebrew Bible. I take Paul’s view is also missing what the ancients thought prior to him. Since most believe humans are born with sin due to Adam and Eve in the garden. The sin is within us at birth. If your a fundamental Christian you have heard this mindset before. But we fail to read the next chapters in genesis with Cain and Abel where god tells Cain that you can conquer sin and one is not born with it. But I see the New Testament is littered with the idea that we all are born with sin and because of that results in spiritual damnation. Why the conflicting ideologies? What are your thoughts concerning this?
I”ve never written about it. But my view is that Augustine *developed* views found in the Bible, and as such his views were *different* from those found in paul and the other NT authors (which, of course, were different from each other as well).
Bart,
You said later Christian theologians “stressed the ‘resurrection of the flesh,’ which for Paul would have been nonsense.” So just to clarify, you think Paul would have scoffed at the discovered empty tomb tradition in Mark, i.e., in your view, Paul thinks Jesus’ bones and meat remained in his burial location even after he was raised from the dead. Does this capture your position correctly?
No, I think Paul definitely thought the tomb was empty. Jesus’ body was raised. But Paul avoided using “flesh” in a positive snese. I think the problem is that you’re thinking that the body is the same as the flesh. For Paul, “flesh” is often used as a technical term for the sinful part of the person that is filled with sin (i.e., it is not the same thing as the “body”, as it would be for us). The “flesh” is not raised but destroyed. The body, however, is raised and glorified.
Professor,
By “raised” Then would Paul have meant more than just reanimated…. he would have meant perhaps transformed from muscles and bones made of earth, air , fire and water (or whatever concept of base matter he had) … to spiritual material?
Yup, that appears to be the case.
The problem is that Paul uses multiple terms for the word body, not just two.
1. body: (σώμα, soma) This word his used only when he think about Jesus (as Son of God e. g. 1Cor11:24, likenes in sinfull flesh Rom8:3 and Fil2:6-8), and when he talks about himself (the new man, the inner man e. g. Fil1:20: here by my body, and not in my body)
2. flesh: (σαρκὶ , sarks) in which he wanted “remain in the body” (e. g. Fil1:24)
AND which everyone forgets
3. the body of Christ: This is ecliss, the congregation.
The flesh (σαρκὶ , sarks) is the reason we cannot please God even by keeping the Law, its true. But because of the faith, the (body of) Christ can be recognized, since this is the task of the law: “… the law was our guardian until Christ…” (Gal3:24)
If that happens, “by faith, in fath” then the life only in faith livable. until the BODY (σώμα, soma) waits for salvation. In faith, the flesh (σαρκὶ , sarks) no longer has its role and life.
Conclusion Gal2:20.
1. “I have been (body: σώμα, soma, the inner man) crucified with Christ (Christ is the visible, not Jesus as Son of God:-)
The body (σώμα, soma, the inner man, with whom Paul identifies himself) is IN Christ. It is necessary for the body (σώμα, soma), to die (e.g. 2Cor 1:9). so that he may receive the resurrection of the dead. The body (σώμα, soma) dies, because of the faith the “Christ” (not Jesus) becomes visible (2Cor10:12) the secret of God is revealed. The lives is any more not visible, the life only in faith livable, because the flesh (σαρκὶ , sarks) is dead because of sin, the body (σώμα, soma) in turn crucified with Christ. So have to wait for the resurrection of the dead. The dead are not in the grave at Paul, they live from faith for faith in the Crist, the Crist live by them, waiting for salvation.
Paul, because the faith, does not see himself in the mirror. The one whom he sees is the Christ (not Jesus).
That’s why in Matthew and in Mark say: “For false messiahs/Christ will appear.”
Whit big respect!
Conclusion 2 (Rom12:5)
“…so in Christ we, though many, form one body (σώμα, soma)”.
The congregation the one body (σώμα, soma) IN Christ, or because of the body (σώμα, soma) of Christ form one body the congregation/ecclesia? I think, Paul thought the first one. Therefore say In Matthew and in Mark:: “For false messiahs/ChristS will appear.”. Therefore do they says false ChristS. In plural. They are yet understand what Paul wants to say:-)
So I see that, Paul believe the body (σώμα, soma) of Christ (not Jesus, but God’s revealing secret) is material, this body is realy material (of which there are kind of many), but the congregation the one body (σώμα, soma), that is, not material. The congregation/ecclesia a purely spiritual, psichicaly entity IN the Christ, by the faith, at Paul.
In the madness there is logic It is the logic of madness….
All the best!
Essenes were also apocalyptic, right? Based on Josephus, Essenes believed “that bodies are corruptible, and that the matter they are made of is not permanent; but that the souls are immortal, and continue forever”. Interestingly Josephus view on Pharisees was different from the NT because Josephus, who himself was a Pharisee, wrote that the Pharisees held that only the soul was immortal and the souls of good people would be reincarnated and “pass into other bodies,” while “the souls of the wicked will suffer eternal punishment.”
Do you think we can trust on what Josephus wrote about Essenes and Pharisees in year 75? That is around the same time that many of the books in the NT were written. How do you reconcile Josephus’ writings with the NT?
Source:
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Josephus_on_the_Essenes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharisees
The comment he makes about passing into other bodies is often taken to refer not to reincarnation (as it would seem to us!) but to resurrection. If that’s so, then the statement coincides with what we know otherwise. The problem with Josephus’s descriptions generally is that he is writing of a Roman audience and trying to explain the views of the four sects in terms that Romans could understand. It’s hard to know how he would have described them for a Jewish audience.
I was scrolling down through the comments in order to pose this very basic question to you, Bart (maybe a Friday reader topic?), when I saw Talmoore at least try to touch on the area of my question.
But here it is plain: In reading philosophy or historical interpretations of thought, like the subject of your blog, I have often run tino the distinction between “soul” and “spirit”, always without any definition of the difference apparently needed!
Maybe if I hadn’t been raised in a Judeo-Christian, and especially Bible-reading Protestant tradition, I would instinctively treat those two terms as basically synonyms when it comes to an individual non-corporeal essence.
BART: What is the technical definition/distinction?
What is YOUR definition/distinction as used in the blog and your books?
The terms are often used synonymously (both in antiquity and today). Other people differentiate between them. There’s no “official” or “definitive.” In some understandings, “soul” is of a lower-level substance than the highly refined “spirit,” and people have both. Some understand that soul” is the entity that enlivens the body. In Platonic thought the “soul” is immortal and lives forever, because of it’s innate properties. In Christian circles the soul is immortal only because (if) God empowers it to be so. I wish there were a simple answer!
Ha, I think I asked that at the time?
“Spiritual bodies *were* physical. ” > that might have been the belief indeed. but the crucial point is: was the actual ‘old’ physical body needed in order for the soul/essence to be raised, or wrapped, into this NEW ‘spiritual’ body?
My answer, based on Paul’s description, is no. Because if that old body was needed then what about bodies that have been burned or decomposed? Couldn’t those people be raised into these new ‘spiritual’ bodies?
Also, Paul’s analogy to the seed seems to imply that the old body is not being ‘reconstructed’ or ‘revived’.
In Genesis, we’re told that God created Adam from the dust of the earth (the “natural”), then God breathed into Adam a “breath” (“ruach”, in Hebrew, AKA “spirit”), and *at that time* Adam *became* “nephesh” (Hebrew – “a living soul” or a “living being”)
Thus, one can say that Man does not “have” a soul; he *is* a soul.
However, over time, both in Hebrew and in Greek, “soul” and “spirit” sort of became somewhat interchangeable. Sort of. Sometimes, “soul” – being a reference to the “whole, living human being” – has a “spiritual” connotation (which is perhaps why it’s almost synoymous – but not quite – with “spirit”). But, one has to understand the Pharisaic/Hebrew mentality here: Both the body *and* the spirit were *equal parts*, and equally *good* parts, of “nephesh”, a “living being” (a “living soul”). There was none of the Greek “duality” in the Hebrew concept. This “duality”, which is often expressed as “I – the *real* me – just ‘inhablit’ this body, and ‘I’ , the *real* ‘me’, will go on and (do something like) ‘join with the Great Cosmic Consciousness’, or ‘be put in *another* body when I die”, etc, etc. This was not at all the Pharisaic view (which is Paul’s view). When you die, the spirit is separated from the body; at resurrection, there will be the perfect and complete melding of the body (the natural) and the spirit (the supernatural), resulting in a “transformed, spiritual body”. It is this understanding: a body without a spirit is a rotting corpse, a spirit without a body is a phantom, unable to experience the sensuality of this thing we call “life”. Body and spirit do not exist apart from one another in any kind of “fullness”; there is no experience of “life”, temporal or eternal, with body and spirit separated; hence, the *need* for resurrection. If there was to be an afterlife at all, it would be in the form of a perfect melding of the natural and the supernatural.
Dr. Ehrman:
Are you at least partly convinced that Jesus performed miracles? Surely you have read Dr.Keener’s massive project on this issue? What is your view on the subject of miracles?
No, I do not believe anyone does miracles (if you mean by that actions that violate natural laws). You can see my view of miracles in my New Testament textbook in the chapter dealing with “the problem of miracle.”
Dr Ehrman –
re: “No, I do not believe anyone does miracles (if you mean by that actions that violate natural laws). ”
What if one is referring to miracles that don’t violate natural laws at all?
If all the workings of all things in nature – all the quarks, bosons, atoms, electrons, strings, whatever, and, all the interactions of all these things – were represented by “N”, then we could say the result of N is this thing we experience as “nature”.
But, if there is a supernatural, with it’s own “powers” or “forces”, represented by “S”, and this is *combined* with N, such that we now have NS, it is clear and obvious the result of NS is going to be something different than the result of N alone.
This, though, does not mean any of “N” has been violated in any sense at all. Water behaves in certain, knowable fashions. But, add some Jello to it, and while the water still does exactly what water does, the combination of the two things produces a result quite different.
If Jesus performed miracles in which a supernatural force *combined with* nature, thus *not* violating any of the characteristics of that nature, but rather, enhancing it, would you have objections to it?
Or, do you hold to the view that miracles *must* violate laws of nature? If so, I’d truly like to know how you know that miracles work in the “violation of nature’s laws” manner.
Yes, those aren’t miracles. They are the wonderful workings of nature. Their workings cannot be broken or changed except by other natural means.
The “supernatural”, as it’s name implies, is not a part of nature. So, how a “supernatural force” introduced into nature, combining with it, could be considered a “wonderful working of nature” is quite beyond me….
I think I’ll stick with a miracle being a supernatural force acting in conjuction with nature, as if temporarily introducing another force in addition to electromagnetism, gravity, the “dark force”, et al. The old Hume-ian idea that miracles violate the laws of nature might have made some sense in the 18th century when nature was essentially understood to “obey” those laws, but these days, the notion of such a law is more like a summary of highly reproducible results, constructed by the scientific community. Laws of nature do not define an outcome; they simply describe a process which includes all the “ingredients” of nature. Insert one more ingredient from *outside* nature (ie, from the supernatural), and for the time it is included in nature, and in the local in which it has been inserted, nature simply acts as it does – with the addition of one more thing.
Hume had some great ideas, but his musings on miracles and laws of nature only seem to work when a dogma of either atheism or diesm is accepted.
Dr. Ehrman: Thanks for this topic, it is key:
Here’s the quote I’ve been struggling with mightily for some time now:
“For Paul, at least, the “resurrection” terminology is synonymous with Jesus being “raised up” to heaven. Later traditions want to parse that out into separate steps; for Paul it’s all one “event.”
* According to Paul is there a difference between resurrection and ascension and exaltation?
It seems this guy is trying to blur the lines to make it seem like Paul believes that Jesus wasn’t actually raised bodily
No, not a blurring: for Paul Jesus was indeed raised bodily, but not to live more on earth (as a Near Death Experience). He was taken bodily up to heaven and made a divine being, all in one fell-swoop.
Ok, but Jesus made his resurrection appearances here on Earth, correct?
Yup.
Dr. Ehrman: Do you agree with this quote by Borg that there must have been something very powerful and unique about the resurrection experiences?
“Such an experience [of a dead spouse] might lead them to wonder whether their spouse is still in some sense alive. But it would not lead them to conclude that their spouse was now both Lord and God.” ‘Speaking Christian’ by Marcus J. Borg, HarperOne, 2011 p.111
Yes. But if someone sees their spouse after death, they interpret it in light of what they themselves happen to think about life and death. Most of the time, today, people see the dead spouse as a ghost come from heaven. That option was not available to the disciples of Jesus, as apocalyptic Jews. I talk about all this in my book How Jesus Became God. A lot of your questions are answered there!
Dr. Ehrman:
What would be the best response to this?: “Paul does not believe in bodily resurrection, he says ‘spiritual body’ and he does not think that ‘flesh and blood’ can inherit the kingdom 1 Cor 15.50.”
Would it be to quote verses such as 1 Thess. 4:16-17, 1 Cor 15:53, Rom. 8:11, Rom. 8:23, and Phil. 3:21 to show that Paul believes bodies will be TRANSFORMED and NOT SHED?
Thanks
Yes.
Dr. Ehrman,
There are some who say that “spiritual body” is a body made of very fine matter, or wind. This doesn’t make sense, why would Paul brag about that, is not the resurrection body supposed to be something powerful? Is their reading a misapprehension?
Spirit is more powerful than flesh.
Dr. Ehrman:
Do I have this all correct? Am I leaving anything/anyone out?
Had sightings of the resurrected Jesus that they were convinced were actual, physical, plain view sightings of the resurrected Jesus: Peter, Paul, Mary, and James… Paul and James were converted as a result.
Early Martyrs: Peter, Paul, James son of Zebedee
That’s my view.
Dr. Ehrman,
Do you agree with these professors from the Jesus Seminar?
“[On 1 Cor. 15:6 Paul is] implying that anyone who was still skeptical about what they had heard could ask the witnesses directly, since most of them were still alive…”at one time”…is probably meant to intensity the objectivity, because more than five hundred witnesses could hardly all have been deluded.”
Gerd Lüdemann in ‘Paul: The Founder of Christianity’ 2002 Prometheus Books p. 168
“[On the 500] Paul seems to know persons who actually experienced the thing that is referred to in this formula…There are still people around to tell of it…”
Stephen J. Patterson in ‘The God of Jesus’ Trinity Press International 1998 p.237
1. Possibly; 2. No, I don’t think Paul indicates he actually knows any of these people.
Dr. Ehrman,
Do you agree with this quote by Crossan that there was something unique about them calling it a resurrection instead of just ascension or just exaltation?
“Ascension” was the obvious interpretation. In both Jewish and Greco-Roman theology that was an individual event for very special people—like Enoch, Moses, Elijah—or Romulus, Caesar, Augustus. “Resurrection” in Jewish theology always means a corporate, communal, and universal event. Choosing that word for Jesus is what needs to be explained…” – J.D. Crossan
Yes.
Dr. Ehrman,
You take the position that Jesus’ followers were apocalyptic so when they saw the resurrected Jesus they thought the end of the world was at hand, but even 30 years later, when it didn’t happen, Paul is still writing more convinced than ever that Jesus was indeed resurrected and is Lord (he never for a moment says oh, well, since everyone wasn’t resurrected shortly after, I guess I was wrong to say Jesus was resurrected). So can we say that it is indeed unique that against expectation they said one man was resurrected before the general resurrection, and that this term was used for what happened to Jesus and they stuck with it over the years even when the end didn’t come?
Yes.
Dr. Ehrman,
In “How Jesus…” you list 1 Cor. 15:3-5 as early tradtion and in “Triumph” as well. You indicate that this includes up to and including the 12, so why do you say they didn’t have an experience?
As for the rest of the appearances, you seem to indicate Paul got elsewhere. Do you think that since he says that such material is of first importance, that he at least obtained it from a source he was convinced was authoritative and reliable?
Early is not the same as historical. And yes, Paul was convinced.
Dr. Ehrman,
Do you think (like I do) that there are some scholars who ditch the adequate research on Paul’s concept of resurrection because on the surface at least, terms like “spiritual body” seem more friendly to hallucination theory?
I don’t know.
Dr. Ehrman:
I quoted from your book to a scholar:
“…critical to our exploration are the writings of Paul, who affirms with real fervor his belief that Jesus was actually, physically, raised from the dead.”
Bart Ehrman in ‘How Jesus Became God’ p. 133
This is what he said: “Paul really believed. Yes. But physically???? What does that mean in the ancient world (not to a modern Christian)?”
* Do you agree with me that people even back then knew these basic concepts i.e. between physical and not?
I was writing for a popular audience that does not know or appreciate the technical terms. For your scholar friend, you might indicate that what I meant was that Jesus was indeed raised somatically from the dead, but his glorified soma did not consist of hule, let alone sarx, but of pneuma. It was a pneumatic soma. But a soma nonetheless, intimately connected with the hylic soma that was buried.
Dr. Ehrman:
“But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.” —Philippians 1:23–24
“We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.” —2 Corinthians 5:8
Is this Paul expressing that there is an intermediate state where our souls will live between the deaths of our earthly bodies and our resurrections? Do you think in this state he believes there will be provisional bodies of some kind?
That’s what I argue in my forthcoming book.
Since Paul thought that there was an intermediate step between death and the resurrection, why does he say in 1 Thessalonians 4 that “the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first”? If the dead already had provisional bodies, why would their flesh-and-blood bodies need to be raised?
The temporary “dwelling place” was apparently just an interim state, prior to the glorified immortal bodies to come at the resurrection, intended only for a very short time before the end comes — sometime soon!
Dr. Ehrman:
So a yes to provisional bodies in the intermediate state?
(Some have suggested a disembodied existence, but that seemed weak at a time when we are presumably closer to God)
for Paul, yes.
Dr. Ehrman:
Is there evidence of the type of resurrection Paul believed in by the very term itself? i.e. the Greek word for “resurrection,” anastasis, means “someone who is dead coming back into a bodily/physical life.”
No, I don’t think the meaning of a term is proof of an event.
Dr. Ehrman,
I think this is accurate and well-put. Do you agree?
“…the type of resurrection Paul describes does not occur for saints until the Parousia, at which time “we will be changed” (from earthly to spiritual bodies, i.e. 1 Cor 15:52-54). Such eschatological ideas support a bodily, grave-vacating resurrection, since a “spiritual” resurrection would much more naturally be thought to occur at death.”
Yup!
Dr. Ehrman:
Do you think that at least somewhere along the way Paul and the others probably had to face accusations that their claims to have seen the risen Jesus were hallucinations? Do you think this could well be part of the reason Paul stresses that the appearance to the over 500 was all “at once” and that “most are still alive?”
No, I don’t see any evidence of that.
Dr. Ehrman,
In “Triumph” you say that the followers thought that a great miracle occurred and that Jesus was restored to life. On p. 67 you note that Paul was convinced he saw him “with his own eyes” On p. 53 you say that for Paul it was a “fact” that Jesus was alive again. More e.g.: Page 68 “He really was raised” On p. 52 “…Jesus himself, alive again…” So do you agree that Paul was indeed so convinced that this happened in the real world that IF there was a tomb he could go to where Jesus was buried, it would be empty per his resurrection?
You’ve asked this question before. In my view the answer is yes.
Dr. Ehrman,
I guess what I’m struggling to understand is how could Paul have just thought his encounter with Jesus was a vision if he also believes it (Jesus’ resurrection) had actual, physical results? Visions don’t empty tombs.
He thought he really saw Jesus, if that’s what you’re asking. He did not think it was a hallucination just in his head.
Dr. Ehrman,
In Acts 10 (and I guess Rev. could also illustrate the same concept) do you think Peter thought this was the kind of thing others around him could also see? Or did he think this was something private just for him? Also the text uses words like “trance” and “vision” words that don’t appear per the appearances of Jesus in 1 Cor. 15. So did they at least have some categorical difference between things that even they seemed to note as trances and visions, and things they thought were really objectively real like the resurrection which they based everything on and said that a bodily Jesus, who physically left an empty place of burial behind, and could be seen by 500 at once?
I’m afraid we just don’t know. I don’t think Acts 10 is something that actually happened, in any event, and so there’s no way to know what the “Peter” of the story would have thought or what the historical Peter would have thought had it actually happened to him.
Dr. Ehrman:
Am I correct here in pointing out what this critic gets wrong?
Critic: “Paul makes clear that in Christian resurrection the body is left behind like an old change of clothing, to turn to the dust, and the spirit is “reclothed” with a new spiritual body.”
Me: I think the critic’s language per ‘reclothed’ is problematic. Paul thinks of it as more like putting on a pull-over sweater instead of removing old clothing. i.e. 1 Cor. 15:53: “For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
I don’t think either image is quite right. Nothing is removed. It is transformed.
Dr. Ehrman,
Do you agree with this assessment?
‘Resurrection denotes to “come forth” from Sheol or Hades–the dwelling place or state of the dead; this further indicates that the Jewish/Christian view of resurrection was not about an incorporeal spirit or soul of the departed.’
Usually the texts refer to coming forth from *graves*, not from some other location.
Dr Ehrman –
To over-simplify: in your view, for Paul’s ontology and metaphysics, is the body more like the form of the person, which is made up of some substance; and was that substance ‘flesh’ (plus some blood) during a regular earthly life and (if risen in Christ) a spiritual substance afterwards?
I’m struggling to pinpoint the “that part of the body which is corruptible by sin” definition. The way I’m currently understanding his metaphysical view: When a person is resurrected, the flesh is gone because the spiritual body has in a relevant sense replaced the earthly body – a swapping of substance while maintaining the (more foundational) form/being of the person.
Another way to come at the distinction: is the flesh just a component part of the earthly body made of another substance (which substance is entirely swapped out at resurrection), or is the flesh the substance itself? Is only a part of the body (made of some earthly substance) corruptible, or is the substance per se which composes the body corruptible in itself?
Maybe if I were enabled with the proper Greek terminology I could draw and grasp the distinction better. As it is, I struggle enough with both my mother tongue and Paul’s ontological claims.
Thanks in advance. And at all events, seems like Corinthian Body is a necessary purchase…
Yes, it’s complicated. But your first paragraph is pretty much my view of what Paul has to say. I don’t think the “flesh” for Paul is the substance per se; the substance is something more like “earthly” and “psychic”, a body that has been infused with “flesh,” that element of being human that is infested with sin and makes the substance mortal because it is alienated from God. When the earthly/psychic (made of Psyche) body is transformed, the flesh is removed and the body then becomes a glorified, immortal, “spiritual” body, comprised of Pneuma rather than Psyche.
Fantastic – thank you so much!
Irrespective of whether it is infused with flesh, is psyche itself mortal (assuming flesh and psyche can be separated in Paul’s metaphysics)?
Thank you for the help.
My sense is the pneuma (spirit) is immortal for Paul, but not psyche (soul)
Dr. Ehrman,
Sometimes when I say bodily resurrection, someone will cite v. 15:50. BUT is it right to say that “flesh and blood” should NOT be synonymous with bodily, but that “flesh and blood” represents the sinful, perishable, and decayable of human nature?
Yes, that’s my view. I develop it at length in my forthcoming book on the afterlife.
Dr. Ehrman:
With this person I’m going back and forth with….Can I approach the bodily resurrection from this angle (because he says he says he doesn’t know what to make of chapter 15): By citing the fact that Jesus and his followers and Paul were Apocalypticists who believed that God was going to transform, and not discard the world, including people?
Yes, that doesn’t *prove* it is what Paul thought, but it lends support to it perhaps.
Reply limit reached – thank you for the pneuma/psyche mortality distinction. Generous as always.
Dear Dr Erhman, I read your blog with much interest. Also used one of your books as the text for an intro NT course. The new book you mention in this blog, when is it coming out and what its title?
It should be published next year about this time, Spring 2020.
Dr. Ehrman:
I was having an exchange with someone, do you agree with me and that my logic here follows? Thanks
‘Doe’: “Yes, the resurrection body is made of pneuma, which for Paul was a fine, material substance, as it was for the Stoic philosophers of antiquity.”
Me: So when Paul encounters the resurrected Jesus, Paul is convinced it’s an objectively real encounter with a living resurrected Jesus because Paul believes the risen Jesus was composed of a material substance, is this correct?
‘Doe’: “No.”
I don’t think Paul thought in terms of a distinction between objective/subjective reality. Those are post-Enlightenment ways of looking at the world.
….but do you agree that it follows that since Paul’s concept of the risen Jesus is someone whose body is made of matter (even if it is indeed fine matter) And Paul is convinced that he encountered such a person, Paul believed that he encountered a bona fide, tangible individual who willed to manifest himself here on earth?
I think I”ve answered that question about 500 times! Yes, Paul thought he saw a real embodied person.
Dr. Ehrman:
I actually like your interpretation of Paul that there will be provisional bodies in the intermediate state, as it implies we’ll get to see and interact with people and not just be a floating soul/spirit, but what do you make of 2 Cor. 5?
I’ll be arguing that this is what it means too. The body we have waiting in heaven is what will come at Jesus’ return from heaven. Till then its a provisional body.
So you don’t think that the text indicates that there’s an intermediate state of a disembodied existence as some, even conservative scholars say? What is the reasoning?
Sorry, I misstated myself. I do think, on balance, that he believed in a temporary disembodied state. (I *used* to think the other). Maybe I’ll post on this.
Dr Ehrman,
Did Paul in your opinion think that Jesus spiritual body was like an angel. In the OT angels could eat and drink Genesis 18
I suppose so. But he thought that Christ had been made superior to the angels, to the level of God himself, at the resurrection. (See my book How Jesus Became God).
Dr. Ehrman,
Job 19:26: “And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God”
Do you think it is verses such as this that influenced Paul’s thought that the flesh in and of itself is not evil per se, but rather just needs to be transformed?
I’m afraid the verse is very difficult to translate from Hebrew, and the English translations do not give a sense of how confused it to be.
Dr. Ehrman,
Does “Nekron” have an implication per a dead corpse? Someone wrote this about Paul’s language: “He’s discussing the actual resurrection of corpses (nekron)— the complete restoration of bodies to life.” Is this correct? Is this term something that can be cited in opposition to those who say Paul just believed in a “spiritual” resurrection?
The term nekron (= dead) does refer to a corpse — that is the dead body, yes. And for ancient Jews “resurrection” meant the return of the (dead) body to life. I’m not sure if that answers your question.
Dr. Ehrman,
Yes, it answers the question perfectly.
So can I cite Paul’s use of the term “NEKRON” in his letters as strong evidence that Paul believes in a real, objective, bodily resurrection that involves the corpse, AND DEFEAT the argument that some still make that he only believed in a “spiritual” resurrection?
I do think the Paul believed in an actual physical resurrection, but the term NEKRON simply refers to a corpse. Some people believed the soul was not itself dead, but lived on, never to die.
Do you think Paul’s understanding of the new resurrected body would be one in which the body still had wounds on it?
Great question. My guess is no, but it’s a guess. Well, an educated guess, since he insists that the resurrected body is “glorified.”
While Paul believed Jesus’ body physically vacated the tomb, Paul’s encounter with the risen Jesus was not one in which Jesus was physically on earth with him?
Yes, apparently he thought he saw Jesus, here on earth, several years after his death. That’s the implication of 1 Cor. 15:3-8.
If Paul thought he saw Jesus on earth years after the crucifixion, was Jesus making trips back to earth years after his initial ascension? How does this late appearance fit into Christian belief?
Apparently for Paul, yes. But Paul claims that he was the “final” one to whom such a vision was given.
This whole topic of the flesh and the body in Paul’s thought is confusing! So, by flesh Paul means the aspect of the human that is corrupted by sin. By a spiritual body he means “a body of a more refined substance”, “a different kind of matter” (but one that still eats, etc). By blood he means ????. But having a spiritual body and being free of flesh are not two independent facts about the resurrected self as you describe Paul’s thought, but are related somehow, because you say that flesh and blood are done away with *because* people are raised in spiritual bodies. Questions abound: when Jesus had a physical body did he also have flesh (I suppose so, as Paul’s exaltation christology seems to lose its punch if Christ’s obedience was inevitable, but perhaps I am wrong), what are the implications for Paul’s understanding of Genesis (in particular concerning the bodies of unfallen humans), and as for blood, yeah, what is that when it is paired with flesh?
(Technically several questions, but like the Trinity, also really one. I care less about point by point answers and more about clarifying the overall picture.)
Well, the answers are easy since: I don’t know! If Paul thought Christ’s resurrected body was glorified, as he did, then he most have thought the earthly one was not, so I guess it did have flesh and blood; we don’t know how he interpreted Genesis, but probably more like a Jew than a follower of Augustine. “Flesh and blood” is simply a term for Paul that refers to “normal human being.”
Were there Christian’s at that time that believed in a spiritual resurrection? I thought they believed the spirit was immortal? So how could Jesus’ spirit die and rise again?
Yes, that’s the view Paul is arguing against in 1 Corinthians.
So there were Christian’s at the time who thought the spirit could die and rise again? I wonder if some liberal Christian’s still believe in this view 🤔. The Bible is diverse in its views anyway.
I am rather late to this comment section, but would you say that the flesh is like a “negative soul”? Today modern religious people have a physical body, a brain, a mind and a soul (where a soul is a sort of a container of our identity, spirit and a report card of our deeds and roughly equivalent with spirit). If a soul is not a spirit, and if they are both material, do they decompose into the soil? Please elaborate how a soul and spirit can be material, and how they are different.
Flesh in the Corinthian body sounds like a derogatory term for the corrupted part of our soul (or spirit). With that removed are we automatically in a spiritual body only capable of godly machinations? Would they have believed in two kinds of possible resurrections, one for physical and one for body? Seems very hard to keep track of which subsystem is getting rebooted, in regular conversation.
OK, so we can accept that flesh and bodies are different, but in 1 Cor 15:35, Paul talk about both. Also . . .
’42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.’
Does that not imply that the physical body perishes, which is exactly what we observe. What does Paul think will happen at the final judgement? Will bodies be reconstituted somehow but without the flesh?
“Flesh” for Paul does not mean what it means to us. We think of it as our skin/muscle/whatever. He uses it to refer to that part of the human that is susceptible to the power of sin and as filled with sin leads to death. It’s not the body per se. Maybe it’s kinda like th edifference we draw between mind and brain….
Thanks.
Yes, I get that, but I am asking about the body/meat sans flesh, in this case.
’42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.’
Does that not imply that the physical body perishes, which is exactly what we observe. What does Paul think will happen at the final judgement? Will bodies be reconstituted somehow but without the flesh?
Yes, bodies are reconsituted with out the “flesh.” But that means the “flesh” in Paul’s usage, not in ours. The key is to understand he does not mean flesh like we do, as indicating the substance out of which our (exterior) body is made.
Thanks, I understand that Paul thinks we will resurrect without the flesh but is he saying that bodies will reconstitute?
I Cor 15: ’42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.’
Does that not imply that the physical body perishes, which is exactly what we observe. What does Paul think will happen at the final judgement? Will bodies be reconstituted somehow but without the flesh?
He does say that the physical body perishes, but he doesn’t say it comes alive again, does he?
Yes, without the flesh as *HE* means it, not as we do. By “flesh” we mean that physical part of our body. That’s not what he means. For him the physcial part of the body is not hte flesh but the body. The “flesh” as I’ve said before is for him more like something we might imagine as the “sin nature” an essence that resides within us that compels us to sin. It’s just a technical term for him, and if we don’t see it that way then almost nothing he says about the resurrectoin makes sense. It is the body being brought back — the body itself — in a tranformed state without the capacity to sin (the “flesh”) or to get hurt or to die.
Many thanks for clarifying Paul’s understand, once again, however, as I said a couple of times already, I really do understand this. My question isn’t about the flesh but about the body.
Paul writes in I Cor 15: 42
“So it is with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.”
Does that not imply that the physical body perishes, which is exactly what we observe? What does Paul think will happen at the final judgement? Will bodies be reconstituted somehow but without the flesh as he defines it?
He does say that the physical body perishes, but he doesn’t say it comes alive again, does he?
the physical body doesn’t perish — it is transformed. And yes, the whole point of the flesh is that it is destroyed, and for Paul that has nothing to do with the body.
Sorry, but I am being really slow here. We know physical bodies perish/decompose, especially those that have been cremated. Surely Paul knew this as well.
In verse 44 he says it is sown as a physical body and raised as a spiritual body. Where is it implied that it is transformed?
Does the spiritual body still contain bones and muscles and organs, according to Paul?
It’s the same body. The “it” is the same. Buried “it” is physical, raised “it” is spiritual. It is not a different body but one that began as physical and was raised as spiritual. Paul doesn’t say what it consists of, only that it is spiritual and immortal. But he did recognize Jesus and so he appears to think the body looks like a human body still.
Thanks again, Bart, for pursuing his.
“It’s the same body. The “it” is the same. Buried “it” is physical, raised “it” is spiritual.”
I have read around this in Paul’s letters, many times now, and I don’t see where he says, or even implies the body i.e. bones and muscle are what’s raised. We, and he presumably he, accept that bodies decompose after we die. How does Paul think they come together again, and, if he believes that it’s a spiritual body that resurrects, what is the relationship between it and the previous body?
“It is not a different body but one that began as physical and was raised as spiritual. Paul doesn’t say what it consists of, only that it is spiritual and immortal. But he did recognize Jesus and so he appears to think the body looks like a human body still.”
There is no reason that a spiritual body can’t look like the original if God is involved, is there? Perhaps that’s what Paul means. He seems to be adamant in I Cor, that what is sown is not what we ultimately get, is it not?
I think I’ve tried to explain this as much as I can. Paul doesn’t say anything about muscles and bones, and doesn’t explain how it happens. What he says is that the physical body that is buried is a spiritual body when it is raised. It is the same body and looks the same (as with Jesus) but it is made of PNEUMA, a more refined and immortal “substance” than our current coursely constructed bodies, and cannot therefore die.
“I think I’ve tried to explain this as much as I can.”
Yes, you have, and I really appreciate you taking the time to do that on the blog.
“Paul doesn’t say anything about muscles and bones, and doesn’t explain how it happens. What he says is that the physical body that is buried is a spiritual body when it is raised.”
I agree. And the difficulty here, is that in this blog post, and your earlier one, you seem adamant that Paul believes in a bodily resurrection, but I can’t see what evidence you are using to support that case.
Paul says that physical bodies die, and we know they decompose. He then says that a spiritual/glorified body is raised that looks similar to the original, fair enough. Presumably, the presence of a soul can account for that in some way. I don’t know if Paul believes in ‘souls’.
What I don’t see, anywhere in Paul’s writings, is a link back to the original body being required for the rising of the spiritual body, especially when he says that what is sown, is no longer present. Cleary, I may be missing something that you are seeing here, if so, please let me know.