I had a “revelatory moment” last week that I think may have changed my view about “God” for a very long time – or at least about the existence of superior beings far beyond what we can imagine.
As most of you know, I have long been an agnostic-atheist, and as some of you may recall, I define “atheist” differently from most people, at least in relationship to “agnostic.” The word “agnostic” means “don’t know.” Is there a God? I don’t’ know. How could I possibly know? How could you? I know a lot of you do “know” – or think you know. But my view is that if you’re in that boat you “think” there is a God – really, really think it, deep in your heart, and maybe even deeply “believe” in God – but really, at the end of the day, there’s no way to *know*, at least in the same way you “know” that you have two knees, live in Pennsylvania, or like lasagna.
Anyway, I’m not asking you to agree with me. I’m just saying it’s my view. We simply can’t “know” that there is a God in the same way we know other things, and I myself, long ago, came to the point where I had to admit I *really* don’t know. It’s not that I deeply believe there is a God but admit that technically I can’t know. I mean I really don’t know.
Over the past fifteen years or so (more? Less?) I’ve also been calling myself an atheist, but I have always meant something different by that from what other people say. Usually people think of an atheist as a more extreme agnostic, someone who doesn’t say “I do not know if there’s a God” but who says “I know there is not a God.” I’ve never meant that. How could I know that *either*? I’ve taken “agnosticism” to refer to what you KNOW and “atheism” to refer to what you BELIEVE. Do I believe in God? No, I do not. So I’m an agnostic and an atheist at the same time.
My revelatory moment has softened my view. I guess I’m still an agnostic and an atheist, but I think it makes much, much better sense to stress the “I SIMPLY DON”T KNOW” part, and stop implying that I firmly believe one thing or another. Here’s why.
I have a meditation practice and in it over the past year or so I’ve spent a lot of time meditating on consciousness, especially the marvel that I am a self-conscious being (you are too, but I’m usually not thinking about you when I’m meditating. Sorry….). Consciousness is one of the most mysterious and imponderable aspects of the multiverse, period. Philosophers, neuroscientists, psychologists, theologians, and all sorts of very, very smart people have written extremely erudite books about it, most of them disagreeing with one another. How does something made out of “matter” have the ability not only to think, reason, decide, achieve its own will, and so on – but be aware of doing so?
If you know the answer, you should write a book and you will receive many international prizes and be the greatest explainer of human existence who has ever lived. Many have tried.
So I ain’t goin’ there, to give my sophomoric, neurologically- / philosophically- / psychologically pathetically unnuanced views about it. But something did occur to me the other day during meditation that came as a revelation.
In my experience, one person’s light-bulb moment, when something really clicks, is completely *obvious* to everyone else. And so I’m always hesitant to share mine. Some of you will say, THAT’S what you finally realized? Uh, yeah, duh…. So, when you do think that, well, hey, I knew you would.
But here is the thought that occurred to my head, for whatever it’s worth.
In our way of thinking (this isn’t shared by all cultures), there are different orders of existence/being.
- An infinity of things that could exist do not exist – either they never did exist (an infinity themselves) or they once existed and do not any longer.
- Most of the things that do exist we would call “inanimate” – minerals and stars and black matter and so on and on. There may be even an infinity of that category too, depending on your view of astrophysics etc.
- Most of the things that do exist and are “animate” we would classify as … what? Non-animal? Most obviously to our senses (I’m simplifying), for example, plants: grass and oak trees and such.
- Some few things that exist are animals – however you define that (I’m not interested in refined generic definitions here or exceptions here). They can move themselves, they differ at the cellular level, etc.
- Some of these animals have brains and have instincts and some ability to assert a will, and so on.
- Humans, in our way of thinking, are on the top of the chain. It’s not that warblers, and copperheads, and orangutans are all the same – there are enormous differences, of course. But usually we conceptualize the human with, well, the ability to conceptualize and reflect on the past and future in systematic ways and so on. And yes, I’ve read Frans de Waal – fantastic! But still, on some level, I’m not doin’ the same thing with my brain as my cat is….. Still, it doesn’t much matter: arguing one way or the other on it isn’t going to change my revelatory insight.
So here is my “duh” moment. A rock has no way of recognizing that an animate object such as a dandelion exists. A dandelion has no way of recognizing that a panther exists. Now it gets a bit tricky. A panther has no way of recognizing that a superior intelligence exists. Yes, a panther does recognize in some instinctual sense that there are things out there to look out for. But it has no way of realizing that there are people who can engineer sky scrapers, or split atoms, or reconstruct the history of Rome. It simply is not in its purview.
Humans can and do recognize, analyze, study, think about, reflect on these other forms of life. You don’t need to say they are “lower” life forms or that we are “superior” to recognize this. We can understand all these things because in some sense (not all), our cognitive abilities are superior.
But here’s my point. Suppose you WERE to think (whether imperialistically or arrogantly or not) that we are talking about levels of existence, from lower to higher: rocks, trees, non-human animals, and humans. The fact is that the lower ones can never know about the higher ones, what they really are, what they are capable of, how they exist, what they do, and so on. They can’t even conceptualize their existence.
Then what in the blazes should should make me think that I could possibly know if there was a higher order above me, superior to me in ways that I simply can’t imagine? Not just one order above me, but lots of orders? If there are such orders, there is no way I could ever know. Literally. Duh.
And so really, agnosticism is the ONLY option. Not in the sense of a shoulder shrug, “Hey, how would *I* know?” but in the sense of a deep thoughtful response – I have precisely no way to adjudicate the view, one way or the other.
The PROBLEM is that we humans always imagine we are the pinnacle of existence. We’ve always thought that. That’s why we have no trouble killing other things to satisfy our needs. I’m not opposed to that in every instance: every time I eat a meal or scratch my arm (killing who knows how many microbes) I do that. But it has always led to some rather enormous problems, from massive destruction of others in war to, now, our rather determined efforts to destroy our planet.
This idea that humans are the pinnacle of “material” existence has always (so far as we know) been promoted in religion, especially those that dominate the West. In Genesis, humans are the ultimate goal of creation, the reason all other living things came into being.
This idea that we ourselves are all-important has ironically crept out of our religion into our secular epistemology. If we are the top of all existence, then there must be nothing above us. And so we can use our brains to figure out everything else that exists. In principle, our brains can figure out *everything*.
My revelatory moment showed me with graphic clarity that that just isn’t true, on epistemological grounds. Who says we’re the pinnacle? If quartz stone and maple trees and slugs could think, they would think *they* were the pinnacle – they wouldn’t have the capacity to imagine a Stephen Hawkins or a Steve Jobs or a Frank Lloyd Wright. But they can’t imagine something higher than them. So what make us think we would have the capacity to imagine whatever it is that is above *us* in the pecking order? Frankly, it’s just human arrogance. Pure hubris. And I must say, looking at the world today, I’m not a huge fan of human arrogance and hubris. It’s not doing too well for us.
I am obviously not urging a return to traditional religion. This insight decidedly does NOT justify anyone in saying, “See, I was right – my view of God is plausible.” Your view of God might be completely *implausible* and based simply on what you heard from people living 2000 or 3000 years ago who were generally far more ignorant of the world than we are and were simply doing their best to figure it out. So my insight does NOT argue that there must be a (single, Jewish or Muslim, or Christian) God, or archangels, or demons, or whatever. For me those are just mythological constructs that are trying to make sense of it all.
So I’m not at all advocating we return to the religious constructions of previous centuries and millennia. I’m just saying that the possibility that there really *might* be orders of existence higher than I can imagine strikes me just now as completely plausible. Why not? Who says *I* can figure it all out. If superior forms of intelligence and will do exist, I would literally have no way of knowing. And how many different forms/levels could there be? God knows. So to speak.
If you were a member of the blog, you could get five posts a week. It’s an insanely reasonable membership fee, and all of it goes to charity. So why not join?
My cat knows that I exist. So, if God existed, I might be able to know that he/she/it exists even if God is “higher” than I just as I am “higher” than my cat. Right?
If a higher life form, aliens, visited the Earth, we would know that these aliens existed, even if we didn’t know everything about them. But at this point, we don’t have any empirical evidence that aliens exist. Similarly for God. We can speculate about God but we can’t know.
Yup, you might. Or you might not. Until the modern world no one knew germs existed. We’ve only recently acquired the capacity.
It’s this claim that I believe Spiral’s argument cuts against: “If superior forms of intelligence and will do exist, I would literally have no way of knowing.” Strictly speaking, it’s just not true. There are conditions under which we could know whether superior forms of intelligence exist. I would go further: the intelligence of a being is basically irrelevant as regards the question of whether other intelligent beings can grasp that it exists. Your revelation, I feel, is best addressed to arguments against God’s existence that centre around suppositions about His nature, for example theodicy.
I don’t know how we can know that there are such conditions. REally, how would we *know*? For me it’s like saying that if there are lifeforms in others of the infinite numbers of universes out there, we ahve ways of knowing about them. Maybe not, given the constraints of our knowledge. There aer lots of things we simplly can’t know. (E.g., there’s no way on earth you can know what your great-great-great-grandfather ate for breakfast on teh day of his 21st birthday. Just can’t know it. I’m not saying that’s teh same thing — all three exx. are vastly different. But my point is, there are soem things that we can’t know)
Wow!
Well said !
I identify as a pantheist – there are obviously some deep connections between things in this universe. Some of the very atoms in our bodies came from stars that exploded – as Carl Sagan used to say we are made of Star Stuff. The universe seems to recycle things in a creative way.
And I like to pray. So, for me, when I pray I am praying to that connection. That’s what the word God means to me.
Thanks for sharing this !
Awesome Steve….As an ex-christian, but still spiritual person, I agree with you.
you’re right, it’s hard to share your enthusiasm for your sudden realization. I would suggest that the notion that humans are the pinnacle of anything is rather far fetched given both our propensity to destroy our very own earth and thus our own species, not to mention the many other species we have already eradicated, and the rather obvious point that you have already made, the unknown universe is vastly greater than the known and it grows disproportionately more vast as our puny understanding grows. We can’t even begin to suggest the limits of our own knowledge. In scale we are barely different to an earthworm in awareness. Perhaps we are only far greater in our inflated idea of ourselves.
I think the problem is that we jumble our personal emotional experience with a lot of complex things — consciousness, intelligence, reality, multiverse, space-time, etc — and then we get the type of religious feeling of being completely lost and in need of a simple emotionally satisfying answer such as that there are probably superior beings of a higher order and that they may be sort of like Gods, that we can somehow get in touch with those beings or that universal consciousness, etc.
We don’t just want to admit that we don’t know. We want a way to know what we don’t know. And that’s where all religions and all the mistakes begin. Yes, we do not perceive reality as it is. Yes, our consciousness is a pretty complex phenomenon we do not fully understand. Yes, quantum mechanics is mysterious, and who knows if space-time is the ultimate reality at all? Science gives us the best tools to try to begin to answer those questions, and certainly our intuitions will fail in comparison. When science gives us some good clues, we can start imagining what those other orders of reality could be and if there could be any superior intelligences or consciousnesses.
How can one possibly know for certain that something doesn’t exist? There’s always the possibility that you can’t detect it, didn’t recognize it when you saw it or perhaps had the wrong impression of what you were looking for.
You’ve written a lot about how you became an atheist due to the problem of suffering. I’ve always thought the strongest counter argument to that is to challenge the definition most people (when discussing the problem of evil at least) have for God. Why is God defined as an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent being? How many people throughout history would disagree with that definition, including over a billion people living today? It seems a fair definition for the Abrahamic religions, although the book of Genesis suggests it might not be accurate. In the Garden of Eden, God has to ask where Adam is (doesn’t sound omniscient). Before the flood, he says he regrets making mankind (suggesting he can make mistakes, meaning he isn’t perfect). What if “God” is simply a higher being(s) that created and/or influence the universe we live in? I’m not asking anyone to believe it, but why not? It’s fair to say that compelling evidence is lacking or flawed, but how do you disprove it?
Nope, can’t disprove it. For me the question is always why I should believe it.
Hey, Bart: I take your point on a philosophical level. Of course, that means that the potential superior life forces beyond our perceptions would face the same issue as us with un-perceived life forces beyond their cognitive abilities. And on it goes ad infinitum. As has been said, I can not say for certain that an invisible dragon isn’t watching me this very moment. Is it possible? Yes. Is it likely? No.
I had a similar thought recently, though I like yours a little better. I was imagining reality from the perspective of a single neuron. This neuron might be aware of other neurons it communicates with, but the emergent properties of the sum total interactions between trillions of neurons would be vastly beyond its ability to comprehend. It would have no awareness of thoughts, art, love, pain, or anything else that is produced at the scope and scale of our everyday perception. Now, think of all of the energy in our universe and the constant interaction, the swirling, morphing, changing states of matter and energy in the known universe (and add the multiverse on top of that, if you wish). If there were emergent properties that arise out of all of that, we would be able to perceive and understand them no better than a single neuron could comprehend the emergence and nature of the consciousness that arises out of it’s own interactions.
Thank you for sharing this!
1 Corinthians 8:1-3 comes to mind. Obviously, Paul was not an “agnostic” in the sense you are using the word above, but those verses seem to describe an attitude towards knowledge that is similar to what you are describing. Do you agree?
The other reference that comes to mind is “Who’ll Stop The Rain” by Creedance Clearwater Revival. It not only describes a kind of agnosticism (the title of the song is really a question), it does so while describing suffering and human hubris (including what I take to be a reference to the Towel of Babel).
I’ve seen the debate on the meaning of “agnosticism” summarized this way:
– “Weak Sense of Agnosticism”: I *DON’T* know if there is (or is not) a God.
– “Strong Sense of Agnosticism”: I *CAN’T* know if there is (or is not) a God.
(I’ll just add that the second, “strong”, form of the term is the sense in which the term was originally used.)
In the words of Margaret Thatcher to Ronald Regan “ Bart don’t go all wobbly on us” … just kidding.
Reading your books and others has made me realize that there are things said in both bibles that were not said by the people who claim to have said them.
That alone in my view is an indictment.
We have millions of voters around the country ready to vote based upon supernatural beliefs and one theocrat ( who I went to college with) one step from the whitehouse as Vice President.
When a theocrat takes control of the government it is no longer a government of the people but a cult.
I thank you and Richard Dawkins and others for pointing out the things that you do.
I am alarmed by the information and I hope other are as well.
Thanks
Great insight! I for one have never considered things this way before! What kind of meditation do you do?
Mainly self-awareness types.
Your definition of atheist is the one that nearly all atheists accept, at least in my experience. I’m not sure how anyone could really be otherwise. How could someone possibly *know* there isn’t a god? I can’t even imagine what such evidence would look like!
It may well be that if a higher being (God, alien, whatever) exists that I’d have no way of knowing. But I would still lack belief due to a lack of evidence, even if such evidence isn’t possible. Practically speaking, it doesn’t make much difference beyond enforcing humility.
A lot of atheists argue that there is *not* a God. Including some of our most famous authors….
I mean, the world’s a big place. Look hard enough and you can find someone who’s willing to argue for anything. But there’s a difference between arguing that there probably isn’t a god, and arguing that we can *know* there isn’t a god. All of the prominent authors I’m aware of (Hitchens, Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, Carroll, Barker, etc.) fall into this camp if they’re speaking precisely. Though admittedly most of those don’t put the same emphasis on the “agnostic” part of “agnostic atheism” that you (and, usually, I) do.
Your view isn’t that unusual outside of the r/atheism subreddit, at least in my humble, limited experience.
My sense is that most of them think that if there is no “evidence” of God (i.e., scientific evidence), that’s the end of the discussion.
Dr. Ehrman:
Richard Dawkins Belief Scale
Strong Theist
De-facto Theist
Weak Theist
Pure Agnostic
Weak Atheist
De-facto Atheist
Strong Atheist
So where do you thing you now fall?
I don’t think Agnostic and Atheist are on the same continuum. I think they are different scales. I’m a strong agnostic and a reasonably strong atheist. But completely committed to being allowed to change my mind.
I think there is *not* a God to all intents and purposes and by every measure we know of. Complete absence of any evidence whatsoever over millennia and billions of people. Your insight then still holds, but for all practical purposes people can live their lives as if there isn’t anything supernatural. As rocks and maple trees (presumably) do.
I wonder if that’s really true. Even Dawkins does not say that he absolutely, positively knows for sure that God does not exist (He has a 7-point scale from 1: Absolutely certain God exists to 7: Absolutely certain God does not exist, an places himself at a 6). I would say that I “know” that God does not exist in the sense as I “know” that the Universe was not created by two lobsters named Keith and Roger and I’m fairly certain Dawkins would say the same. It’s a colloquial sense of “know”.
Your view seems to closely resemble that of Thomas Huxley who coined the word “agnostic” to critique believers who claimed to know more than they could possibly know about matters divine. It would seem to preclude revelation which is predicated on the claim that God has provided ample evidence of himself.
The definition of “atheist” you cite, “I know there is not a God”, is of course a common colloquial definition but I hold a rather more philosophically rigorous definition. Atheism is the provisional assertion that gods do not exist. I am not merely describing my inner state of belief; I am making a statement about the world. But such statements are always provisional, subject to revision or disconfirmation in light of new evidence. Certainty is not a valid category here for or against. In the light of a lack of evidence my default position is that such an entity or entities do not exist. To commit to a belief will require some compelling reason to do so. I don’t think this goes too far at all.
Interesting discussion!
To me anesthesia provides the answer of what it is like to function (breathe, heart beat etc.) but not be conscious. It isn’t even nothing…it is non-existence, not even nothingness. I have no idea if there is something beyond us, but I think I do understand what it is like to not even “be” but still be alive. It is that place where even nothingness doesn’t exist. I think all our “insights” too are just in our highly developed brain.
Thanks for your thoughts. I don’t believe in God. And I don’t know if there is or isn’t a god. I suppose that’s the point of faith. Faith provides the abstract. It’s the idea of worship that I find troubling about God. Faith is far different than worship. It seems worshipping is where it goes off the rails for so may religions. Worship makes god real. Faith makes god possible.
The cockroach who warms himself on the orange light on my surge protector has no idea who or what I am, but I’m very much here nonetheless.
While we might have no way of knowing about beings ‘above’ us, we are relatively unique in imagining that there are beings above us. All too often our religions embody unworthy anthropomorphic deities, but some of the better theologians, even some foundational ancient ones, have tried to go beyond a merely anthropomorphic deity. Why do you ask my name? I will be who I will be. Make no images of me. Do not use my name in vain. We will not even pronounce the ‘his’ denial to be named. It is truer to say that God does not exist than that he exists, and he cannot be defined within any genus. Theism and atheism are totally irrelevant to the question.
“But my view is that if you’re in that boat you “think” there is a God – really, really think it, deep in your heart, and maybe even deeply “believe” in God – but really, at the end of the day, there’s no way to *know*, at least in the same way you “know” that you have two knees, live in Pennsylvania, or like lasagna.”
Very true.
Adding to my last comment—
I may not know with absolute certainty that there’s a god or if that is even the appropriate term, but I still must acknowledge that there’s more to my existence than what science can prove at this time. I‘ve had too many experiences that tell me there’s more and more to come concerning humanity.
Agreed.
Love this! Near the end you stated “And so we can use our brains to figure out everything else that exists. In principle, our brains can figure out *everything*.” Our ability to observe, reason, test is amazing but as you stated we have no idea what consciousness is or how it works. Our brains can do amazing things but they are also limited. Our brains tell our fingers to type these words on the keyboard but try having your brain tell your heart to stop for 5 seconds, or tell your body to stop storing fat because you need to drop 10 pounds, or to quit producing cancer cells or a myriad of other things. The weight loss thing is what got me starting on this line of thinking last year. As anyone who has dieted knows, when you start limiting the amount of calories you take in your body recognizes this and adjusts your metabolism, making it harder to lose weight. So while your conscious brain knows it needs to lose weight to be healthy your unconscious body overrides your conscious thoughts and sabotages your efforts. Turning back to your revelation, it reminds me a lot of this clip of Rob Bell talking about Edwin Abbot’s “flatland” and his conceptualization of it. Near the end of the clip is a great bit about a being that exists in 3 dimensional time so please watch to the end. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKph4t62IIc . Enjoy!
Yup, read Abbot in depth many years ago. Very interesting.
Jim Baugh I think that agnosticism needs to be broader. How can we know what goes on in the minds of gorillas, or dolphins, or blue whales or even cats and dogs. They obviously don’t do technology, but how they experience consciousness is beyond our knowledge. Whatever it is, we cannot know or imagine it because it is different from our own cognition. I think it was Wittgenstien who said “If lions could talk we could not understand them”. He was making a point about the necessity of common experience to have a common language, but I think it is deeper than that. Without reference to “higher” or “lower” we cannot imagine a consciousness which is sufficiently different from our own. Neurotypical people cannot even imagine some aspects of the consciousness of autistic people which is very, very similar.I think we should avoid assuming that “more similar to humans” is the same thing as “higher”.
I think you make an important distinction concerning “traditional religion” that underscores one of my main problems with the most recent generation of what we might call “professional atheists” (e.g. as typified by many of the guests-posters in the recent discussion of “miracles”).
In short, it is the straw-man nature of many of their arguments, which we might summarize briefly as “Because we can easily show that the God of, say, Jerry Fawell (or the Westboro Baptist Church, or… whoever) makes no sense, it necessarily follows that *ANY* usage of, or discussion of, the term “God” (and by extension, of “religion”) is complete and weak-minded nonsense.”
In other words, the issue is the tendency to, first, define the terms in way that supports their argument, then demolish that position and claim victory (all the while ignoring the fact that their purported opponents haven’t made the argument they are arguing against).
Agnostic here. Used to believe, but found that the heavy load of continually trying to convince myself that something was true, when I just couldn’t find sustainable proof that it was true, to be untenable. It could have been true… I just couldn’t find any foundational reason why I should believe it to be true.
Excellent post (yours, not mine.)
Dr. Ehrman,
I found your latest blogpost interesting. However, in a more prosaic way, to me, it was not more than saying: “Hey, I think that somewhere in those billions of galaxies each with billions of stars, there’s likely some civilization(s) that is/are much more advanced than ours in a genetic/evolutionary/etc sort of way.”
Or, thinking in a metaphysical way, our galaxy/universe may be no more than drop of water to some unknown being.
Yeah, I think I’m saying something a bit more than that there is intelligent life out there on other planets, far superior to us.
First, I think you are underestimating plants.
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20170109-plants-can-see-hear-and-smell-and-respond
Second, From OrthodoxWiki on the nature of God:
“When an Orthodox theologian makes a cataphatic statement such as “God is everywhere” his apophatic approach would feel this too limiting, and would also say that God is also outside creation, and we don’t know everywhere that God is. Even the statement “God exists” must be countered with the apophatic statement that God’s existence is altogether different than any existence that we can imagine.”
Yes, I’m understanding my view as advancing an apophatic theology. And yes, I agree about plants. But they can’t conceptualize what I can.
Bart,
Welcome to metaphysics: almost.
Consider a thing called “all eternity” that existed before the first galaxy was formed and will exist beyond all infinity. Here were are, conscious beings, on a relatively new planet in a relatively new solar system, inside a galaxy of some sort. We are conscious beings residing in an instant of greater time, and are the very lucky ones being that we are alive NOW in this very moment. We will soon become totally unlucky, however, when the moment ends and we no longer exist forever and ever. Imagine the chances of you and I happening to be alive for this single instant in all eternity. The odds are so stacked that we cannot possibly be alive today. So why are we?
The metaphysical position is we are eternal entities, having always existed and always will, but we know only what is in front of us now, having forgotten who we were and where we resided upon changing our focus to this narrative. We are (of course) alive today because we always are alive somewhere and in some place. This is the only suitable answer. We would otherwise not exist, yet we clearly do exist.
The natural sciences can therefore not possibly be right, for they depend on the first version of why we exist: our physical brain creating the consciousness. It is a “flat world” mentality.
Metaphysical science though thrives on the second version. Consciousness creates the physical world, not the other way around. Now with consciousness in the driver’s seat all things are possible, because consciousness can take on any form. Walking on water is itself a breeze, easily happening in dreams. A dream is formed out of the mind; so is our world. It’s just that established and accepted rules are different.
Now, if this is all true then expectedly there are infinite possible sources we might communicate with who are “non-physical” in our terms. In my search for answers I found one outstanding source: the Jane Roberts/Seth Material, the book “Seth Speaks” by Jane Roberts being the first in a series of thirteen or more. Seth uses the term “All That Is”, but it is synonymous with “God”, but doesn’t hold the Christian baggage. All that is, is “gestalt awareness”, consciousness composed of consciousness, and we entities are of same composition. Seth tells of more advanced entities above him. I highly recommend the Seth Material above all other written records.
One of these days, computerized intelligence will become superior to ours. That much is clear. The implications are anything but clear. Some humans (perhaps some of us) will get to have the fun of watching that happen. I imagine they will mostly not experience it as fun.
Yup, as we’ve long known! I just read “I Robot” (!) fantastic….
The entity Seth speaking through Jane Roberts, who I mention in another post answers the question definitively in the 1970’s. Can AI replicate the human mind? His answer: No.
Reason is: robots cannot dream. It is this area of reality (dream state and beyond) that connects every living cell to every other living cell, and all that exists is present in a single cell.
You heard it here first, from Seth, not me.
“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” Arthur C. Clarke’s third law.
So, sure, there may be beings far superior in strength, intelligence, lifespan, etc. such that they would appear godlike to us. Star Trek has examined this shop worn syfy theme several times (“Who Mourns For Adonais? The characters “Q” and “Trelane”). But this type of superiority is far below what’s meant by a god with infinite attributes.
Humans can have no conception of an infinite being since, possibly outside of mathematics (Cantor’s theory of transfinite numbers), humans never experience anything infinite. Sure, we have limited experience of the natural world, but the jury is still out on whether the Universe is infinite in space and time. And it’s well known that the Christian conception of an infinite God is riddled with logical contradictions (e.g. infinite knowledge of the past, present and future negates free will in the deity). The concept of the Trinity is completely unknowable as every theologian admits.
And closer to home, the probability that humans have invisible, immaterial, immortal souls is billions to one against. We know enough about the evolution of our species (100 billion humans have been born and died and not one has returned from the grave), about our neurological makeup (consciousness is a brain process; it’s not a thing like air, water, DNA), and about the fundamental physics of the Universe (there are no supernatural forces that an immaterial soul can use to control our physical bodies) to rule out the existence of a supernatural component of our consciousness.
It is the universal human fear of non-existence and our infinite greed than makes it easy for purveyors of religious fantasy to convince most people of the existence of an immortal soul and an eternity of pleasure after death of the body. This swindle works best when people have short life expectancy and are uneducated and uninformed. It declines when the opposite is true. Organized religion, and particularly Christianity, is on the decline, especially in the age of the Internet that makes information freely available to all humans.
Good insight. I have found it interesting that there does exist a “lazy” agnostic and a more intellectual agnostic. I hesitate to identify as agnostic because it seems to have a lazy connotation, which sucks. But I think that’s where I’m at as well.
Good points – if our capacity for thinking and imagination are finite, then we cannot know everything. One way we might be able to figure out if something is not true is if its definition contains a contradiction.
Yes, assuming that contradictions affect truth claims. Some cultures don’t see it that way (it’s rooted in Aristotelian logic) (which I subscribe to, but still, it’s not written into the universe….). Even science these days!
Sorry, Bart, I don’t get it. Isn’t your cat (a small, domesticated panther) “thinking” when it mews at you to open a can of cat food for it? When you turn your houseplant and it responds by changing its direction of growth, whether or not it is “aware” of which way it’s facing and that you did something to it is simply a matter of definition–define awareness to give the answer you want.
If you want something mind boggling to ponder that does not boil down to semantics, science is full of spooky weird stuff that makes no sense based on our everyday experience: quantum entanglement, whereby something is apparently two places at once; radioactive particles that ordinarily decompose rapidly can be made to last as long as we like by speeding them up to near the speed of light, so time slows down for them; a vacuum is actually full of particles that pop in and out of existence; particles have forbidden speeds that they can go slower or faster than; wave-particle duality; what is gravity and why does curvature of space cause it; why is it dumb to ask, “If you are at the edge of the universe and poke your arm through, what’s over there?”; and much more that you and I are too unaware to even describe, let along understand, but other–more aware–humans can.
Yes, he certainly is thinking that. But he has no conception of what I really am or what I can really do. Not a clue.
He knows that he is manipulating you to feed him, keep him warm and healthier than he would be with his native feral tribe (though that is a significant loss). He knows that you have much poorer night-vision and general agility, even though he doesn’t know that you speculate on higher entities for a living. He does know you are there : it would matter a lot if you were not. Do your putative higher entity/ entities have an effect on you?
Well, for one thing I feed him instead of expecting him to feed me!
I think that acknowledging the fact that there may be some things outside of their comprehension scares people. They fear what they do not know. H.P. Lovecraft utilized this in his books well. People encountering something so far outside of their understanding that it drives them mad because they can’t wrap their heads around it, so to speak. Conversely it is also a contributing factor in why religions are still so popular. They provide answers to all of the unknowns ( whether true or not).
I wholeheartedly agree with you about just not knowing. I am in the same boat as well as many others. Our species ability to think in the abstract, to realize our own consciousness, to work to bring a vision to reality has brought us a long way but staring into the seeming infinity that is the cosmos should help us to realize that we are finite beings. To eliminate the possibility of anything superior than us would be, as you have said “Pure hubris”.
Thank you, Bart. An excellent article, as always. It’s a point I’ve considered myself, and it seems obvious. Clearly if a being existed that inhabited all time and space, it would have no reason or desire to deal with humanity.
Do we communicate with ants? No, and why should we? Yet ants are many times closer to us in terms of both physical size and intelligence than we would be to a deity.
I’ve also proposed the idea several times that a deity with the knowledge and power we typically ascribe to it, would never write a book. A book being one of the worst methods of trying to reach a planet full of humans scattered across many cultures, languages, and geographies.
I appreciate the work you do.
All the best,
Isaac Coverstone
That’s an interesting argument, but to me it falls a bit flat when you try to build a hierarchy out of things that live that have some sort of ascending order of understanding about the world around them. In most viewes humans are on top of that, but (if I understand you correctly), since lower forms do not and cannot have knowledge of life forms with intelligence or existence (or whatever you want to call it), it thereby follows that we cannot have the same. I do not think that follows. Because we are so completely unlike other animals, as you make clear. We have abilities, not different on a small scale, but on a vast scale, from any other living creture.
So I would say we CAN make at the very least educated guesses (really more than that) about a superior being, becasue we have the ability to infer and extrapolate from data available to us, to build hypoteses and models and theories about things we cannot directly observe. We are unique like that, so the use of a hierarchy of abilities is little use I would say.
This can be a long comment, but I will just state that as for long as we have studied the heavens and the ground, in short, done the above, we have yet to encounter anything that need a god as explanation, and many things where we prior had only god as explanation, that have now become possible to explain by our own science. NOT ONCE have we seen any sign of a God, as an explanation for things in our universe. Do we, do I, KNOW there is not a God? Nope. But I am reasonably certain, because there is no imprint on Her existence upon our universe that we have found. Show me such and i will no longer call myself an atheist…
I agree. If we go down the route of not knowing because they are “above” us, why not ghosts, demons, aliens among us, etc. Seems to be setting one up for all kinds of woo. Kind of lost some respect for Sam Harris on that point.
One of your more unique posts here. I have just started a practice of mindfulness in which one “simply” attends to breathing. It’s quite difficult at least to me since the idea is to clear the mind of extraneous thought and focus on the moment. Nonetheless many veteran practitioners claim to have better success and occasional “duh” moments. It sounds as if you had one of similar dynamics? If so, have you written anything from the historical perspective of meditation and early religion? I think it would be fascinating.
Yup, it’s taken me a few years to get to where I am in meditation. And I’m just scratching the surface. but at least I’m doing that!
Thanks, Guess I’ll keep scratching too.
Any plans for another Michigan State visit this year? (Assuming Chris Frilingos still resides)
He does, and nothing connected with Michigan scheduled just now, I’msorry to say.
When asked for my position on the existence of God, my response is this: I am an agnostic as to the existence of a Creator God, but I am a hard core atheist as to the existence of Yahweh, Allah, Lord Krishna, and Lord Jesus.
I never debate Christians or other theists regarding the evidence for a Creator. It is a futile, endless debate. I simply concede: It is certainly *possible* that an intelligent Creator exists. And as to the origin of the universe: I will accept the consensus position of science if such a consensus ever occurs. That said, even if there is a Creator, there is ZERO good evidence that he (she/they/or it) ordained that the supernatural operate within our universe. Therefore, I reject as superstitious religious hysteria any claims of miracles and answered prayers.
Debate any conservative Christian regarding his (her) belief system, and the first thing he wants to discuss is evidence for an Intelligent Designer/Creator. Don’t give him the satisfaction! Concede that a Creator is possible and move on to the main issue: his belief that an executed, brain-dead, first century peasant came back to life; his dead corpse was magically transposed into a superhero body by an ancient Canaanite deity with a penchant for genocide; and 40 days later he levitated into outer space; where he currently rules on a golden throne as Lord and Master of the Cosmos!
That is where we can beat him!
Debating the origin of the universe and the existence of a Creator is a never ending debate and a waste of time, in my humble opinion.
Exactly why I go by the traditional description of agnostic. Besides, the word atheist seems to really put a bee in the bonnet of the faithful (and my wife), much more so than agnostic; maybe they think you can still be saved. Also, a few episodes of the original Star Trek could have provided similar insights into other possible higher levels of life forms. But seriously, how anyone can believe any description of higher life, or God, is accurate is beyond me. People just accept a doctrine without realizing all the levels of “truths” that are wrapped up in that doctrine and where those truths came from: a people 1-3000 years ago, all invented to control their society and enrich the leaders with power or wealth. Truth is we just don’t know and most likely, I think, we never will. To bad so much time and effort is spent thinking about it.
Very interesting.
Your short essay reminded me of a famous quote from William James:
“We may be in the Universe as dogs and cats are in our libraries, seeing the books and hearing the conversation, but having no inkling of the meaning of it all.”
Our pets see us every day, eat our food, seek signs of affection, and yet (as far as we can see) have no inkling of what is going through our minds when we ponder our actions or our place in the larger scheme of things.
By analogy, if there were beings (one or more) with higher, more complex or more extensive understandings of reality, we might blindly pass them by.
That doesn’t prove they do or don’t exist.
which is why Dr Doolittle makes no sense. Those animals he communicates with would not have the same perceptions as we do.
The big take-away is that agnosticism and atheism are still warranted. There may be gods that are as high above us as we are from a snail. We can’t make the snail aware of us no matter what we do. Perhaps there are beings that are that far above us and are in the same predicament. But that’s not the Ground of All Being that most theists are calling out to. Surely that being that contains all of the others would know how to communicate to His creation in a way that could be clear and concise. I find no credible evidence that He has. It’s like many of us who claim ourselves as agnostic/atheists. Either this God cannot get my attention because of His limitations, or He is unwilling. In either case, It’s entirely out of my hands. Not that I’m not open to it. Because, Honestly, Who wouldn’t want to know the deepest Truth of the multiverse. If it is in indeed knowable. I’ve always liked this quote by Martin Luther, “I shall never be a heretic; I may err in dispute, but I do not wish to decide anything finally; on the other hand, I am not bound by the opinions of men.”
I stand by my agnosticism and my atheism…for the time being.
Hello Bart,
An interesting revelation. Perhaps your insight is along the lines of Karl Barth’s rejection of knowledge of God via natural theology and reason, though of course you would diverge from Barth in your rejection knowledge of God via faith. For Barth, God is “wholly other” and therefore transcends all categories of human thought and logic.
Given your interest in meditation, you might want to look into secular Buddhism e.g. the evolutionary psychologist Robert Wright’s “Why Buddhism is true” which featured in New York Times bestseller list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Buddhism_Is_True. Also listen to his dialogue on Rationally Speaking: http://rationallyspeakingpodcast.org/show/rs-194-robert-wright-on-why-buddhism-is-true.html, “This episode features bestselling author Robert Wright making the case for why Buddhism was right about human nature: its diagnosis that our suffering is mainly due to a failure to see reality clearly, and its prescription that meditation can help us see more clearly.”
I agree that it is reasonable to think that non-human animals cannot conceptualise beings more intelligent than themselves, though one should be a little cautious in examining our basis for thinking we know what goes on in the minds of non-human animals. It is not far fetched to be open to the possibility that dogs realise humans are in some sense cognitively superior to themselves, hence dogs give their loyalty to their owners. Who is to say dolphins and other intelligent mammals capable of solving certain types of puzzles more effectively than humans, are in some respects, more intelligent than humans.
Granted your observations about cognitive order of animals and humans, and the inability of one type on the order to conceive of beings on the higher order, I don’t think your argument can be extrapolated to humans’ ability to know about existence of God. It does appear that non-humans animals are incapable of conceiving or conceptualising creatures cognitively superior to themselves. Without being able to conceptualise an entity, one can’t even begin to know about it. But humans are capable of conceiving something akin to a being possessing immense power, immense knowledge, existent prior to existence of our universe some 13 billion years ago, present everywhere one could think of (all countries, all continents, all planets, all solar systems, all galaxies), and highly benevolent and moral. Such a being is not far off from the Anselmian perfect being possessing all the omni-properties. [continued below]
Thank you for sharing this– some people might call it obvious (I don’t) but it is not trivial. A “chain of being” is an old idea but such a chain could extent into realms we are unable to imagine. Thinking like this actually gives an offhand remark like: “Who knows?” a more profound nuance. Indeed. Who knows??? Makes me feel less strange for having had somewhat similar thoughts.
Perhaps I have completely misunderstood your argument but is it not the case that humans can and have conceived of something greater than they e.g. St Anselm’s Ontological argument (God is ‘that than which none greater can be imagined’)? It may well be that that ability is the key feature which sets humans apart from all other animate and obviously inanimate creations.
Humans have also determined that God is to be conceived of as omniscient, omnipotent, all loving and all righteous. (Something which we would not claim for ourselves.) Thus we are able to see beyond ourselves.
The difficulty comes, of course, when those definitions are analysed and debated and as a result seen to be problematic. It is then that the existence of and belief in God is doubted.
Yes, when I was a fundamentalist we used to say “God is far greater than anything we can imagine.” And then we would go on to describe his characteristics and attributes. 🙂
I suppose the question becomes: if it’s possible for a spiritual realm to exist (or any other realm beyond our current ability to observe or comprehend), what, if anything, does that obligate from us?
We are certainly driven as a species to better understand our origin, our purpose, and deal with the inevitability of our death. The concept of God conveniently fills in the gaps left by science and philosophy. Some clearly have no need for it. The naturalistic reality and secular philosophies are enough for happiness or contentment. Others see a profound sense of injustice and irrelevance if this is all we have and will ever have. I don’t begrudge people for wanting religion (God) to fill that hole, provide that hope.
We seem wired by evolution to find patterns and infer intentions of potential predators. It allows us to determine danger and have us act accordingly. Religion is an over exaggeration of these drives which causes us to find patterns in randomness (the Virgin Mary showing up in the damndest places) and ascribe intention to nonexistent beings. Who is better able to survive and adapt? Whose philosophy creates the most utility? I’m guessing somehow both are important.
That’s one way to look at it, for certain. But the existence of higher beings doens’t necessarily imply obligation. In some way that would be anthropomorphizing — e.g., in societies we are obligated to obey our superiors; but there’s no reason it has to work like that. My cat will tell you that she has no obligation to obey *me*!
This line of discussion reminds me of the Ridley Scott movie Prometheus, where a team of scientists set out to find the “creator(s)” of the human species in a remote part of the universe….hoping it will be a race of benevolent god-like beings. Of course they find something very, very different. Our assumptions are that God purposefully created us and takes a benevolent, loving interest in us as evidenced primarily by supernatural divine revelation. But as you aptly note, the problem of suffering….and I would add injustice…..and the randomness of what prayers are answered….and the dearth of clear supernatural revelation any more, really makes one question how interested God really could be…and how much the human mind creates to satisfy its confirmation bias. Thanks for the post….I see it’s gotten huge reaction…..no surprise.
Many thanks – a very interesting insight!
PS It is ‘Stephen Hawking’
Sorry. In a hurry, as usual.
Obviously no one can correctly claim “I know there is no God.” We then would be saying that just because we don’t know something then it could not possibly be or exist. That would be the height of arrogance. For centuries we assumed that all swans were white until we found black ones. It’s conceivable that tomorrow a superior being (God) could come out of the heavens with a thunderbolt in each hand astride a pink elephant. There would be few non- believers then. Some might object that this was just an extraterrestrial being. But isn’t that part of what we mean by the term “God?”
Welcome to the epistemological neighborhood! The weather here is, well, I don’t know!
Oh, I’ve been in the neighborhood for a long time. for me it’s always been about epistemology. I was going to riff on it in the post, but it was too long already….
Indeed – perhaps better said, welcome to the systematically epistemically-barred block in the agnostic neighborhood! You’ve raised our property values!
[continued from above]
Arguably, humans may not have an adequate handle conceiving an omni-being, but I don’t see any problem with conceiving a being possessing power, knowledge, duration of existence, moral qualities to an immense degree. Then the question is whether humans can know about the existence of such a being, which we label God. Of course we cannot perceive the world via the mind of an omnipotent omniscient timeless omnipresent being; but we can recognise such a being if it were to interact with us by displaying his power, knowledge, spontaneous appearances everywhere, showing his great love and compassion to all sentient beings.
If the apologetical arguments commonly presented by Christian philosophers today are sound (for example, cosmological arguments, design arguments, ontological arguments, moral arguments, historical arguments), then we can know God exists. The problem is, in my view, all these arguments are defective, or even bogus.
Atheist philosophers also produce counterpart arguments against existence of God, such as argument from existence of evil, hiddenness of God (e.g. as presented by J.L. Schellenberg, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._L._Schellenberg#Divine_hiddenness, https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/divine-hiddenness/). If their arguments are sound, then we can know God does not exist. We can view non-existence arguments inductively, that is, view them as probabilistic arguments rather than deductive arguments against existence of God. It is of course open to debate whether the arguments are sound.
I think it is very difficult to formulate compelling arguments against existence of a deistic God, but easier to formulate ones against a theistic God – a being who cares deeply about human welfare. Everything we see around us runs counter to existence of such a God. Everything points to the reality that humans are on their own to solve problems presented by their inherently harsh living environment, and by personal and societal conflicts.
Pretty interesting, almost a Barthian observation. There is no human way to God. I find there are three aspects of reality that are worshipful and transcend the created order. The Big Bang, creator of the universe, the fountain of being. The Logos, the mental aspect that combines all thinking beings and what make possible our thoughts some how corresponding with logos in physical reality. We are now realizing that this logos not only pervades our minds, the physical universe, but also our created simulations. lastly the Spirit of Life that moves life towards evolution and self transcendence, guides life into eternity of peace and understanding. These aspect can be forever contemplated, have feeling of infinite dependence for our life, and seen with the highest reverence.
Bart,
Thanks very much for sharing this brilliant idea.
I like to mediate too – sort of Buddhist-style. I think the best insights come when one stops trying at all.
I do read almost all your posts, and I really appreciate them.
Thanks,
Susan
(retired physician – but never retired as a scientist)
Our Egos have taken one hell of a battering over the last 400 years, from when prevailing thought was that we were the perfect creations of a perfect God, for whom we had a purpose to fulfill.
The discoveries and propositions of Newton, Darwin, Freud, Everett and others call on us to find our place within a new paradigm.
It will be a challenge to accept that rather than the end purpose, we are part of an ongoing process that will continue to evolve long beyond our time and place.
At the risk of overly complicating my question about 1 Corinthians 8:1-3, I’ll note that there seems to be a good argument for the original text of v. 3 being the shorter version found in a couple of key ancient texts: “But if someone is loving, that person has come to know” (cf Mark Letteney, JBL 135/2, 2016). In other words, Paul seems to say that if you think you know something, you don’t know as you ought (and are puffed up), but if you love you have truly come to know; this seems to fit well with his discussion in the rest of chapter 8, the famous “love” chapter (chapter 13), and other places in 1 Corinthians.
The points of commonality between these verses and what you wrote seem to be: 1) our limited ability to know, and 2) our hubris and the destruction caused by thinking we know more than we do. Do you agree?
My apologies if this is confusing.
Hey, I taught Mark Letteney textual criticism! (When he was an undergraduate) I haven’t looked at his argument, so I don’t know. The ms tradition is a bit tricky for the omissions; but I wonder what he does with the passive form of the verb “to know” (isn’t it “is known”?) I haven’t really looked into it.
I only know Greek a little bit; I’ve never taken a class in it. With that caveat, I think Letteney is saying in his paper that the verb ἔγνωσται should be understood as a perfect middle verb rather than a perfect passive verb (I believe perfect middle has the same form as perfect passive). This can be done with the shorter text (which doesn’t have “by God” at the end of verse 3). It is the “by God” at the end of verse 3 in the longer text which forces the verb to be construed as a perfect passive in the longer text. That, plus other considerations, leads to the translation he proposes (“…has come to know.”) and ultimately the argument he makes for the shorter text being original.
https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/letteney/files/letteney_-_2016_-_toward_a_new_scribal_tendency.pdf
Ah, I see. Does he explain why Paul uses a middle instead of an active?
Letteney notes that the perfect tense at the end of v3 (“has come to know”, middle voice) correlates with the perfect tense at the beginning of v2 (“has come to know [something],” active voice), and the verb at the end of v3 (in the shorter version) should be understood as having reflexive force (I guess because in the shorter version there is no direct object “by God”, literally “by Him”). The reflexive force at the end serves to underscore the overall rhetoric of vv 1-3. Also, Letteney cites sources (including LSJ) that show how the middle voice for “to know” was sometimes employed with an active meaning. On the other hand, he argues that if you look at the verb tenses in the longer text that there are interpretive problems with respect to vv 2-3 (which I won’t restate here).
It seems to me (with my limited background) that his argument on the grammar has merit but is not a “slam dunk”. Perhaps considering the rhetorical flow of vv 1-3 and of chapter 8 as a whole is critical for deciding whether the shorter or longer text “works” better.
Well, he’s a smart cookie! Was already as a sophomore in college!
Note: the blog doesn’t let me reply to the last comment on the thread (“Well, he’s a smart cookie…”), so I’ll ask my below question (on a related but different point) in this area. I can re-post the question elsewhere if that would be better.
If a new major bible translation were to be made at some point in the future, I could imagine one of the translation committee members potentially making an argument for an update to a set of verses that would be similar to Letteney’s argument for the shorter text of 1 Corinthians 8:2-3. I further imagine the committee debating the merits of using a different manuscript basis for the verses in question, with some potentially agreeing with the proposed update and others disagreeing (perhaps, in part, because of having an overall conservative attitude).
What do you think it would take (in the world of scholarship, and in the world of bible translations) for a hypothetical new major bible translation to make a change such as changing 1 Corinthians 8:2-3 to reflect the shorter reading? Do you know of any examples, either from the NRSV or from another major translation, of making a similar change? I generally wonder how major bible translations evolve to reflect evolving scholarship, and this would be one aspect of that larger issue.
My son, Bart, sent me this wonderful article about your infamous “1st century Mark”:
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2020/jan/09/a-scandal-in-oxford-the-curious-case-of-the-stolen-gospel?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
It’s the best account of the mess I have so far come across.
Yeah, it’s a serious piece!
So, turtles all the way down, and what, seraphim/cherubim all the way up?
Sorry for the flippancy.
Ha! But, well, I’m pretty sure about the turtles….
You know Bart this is what I like the most about you. Your * Humility* is the opposite of hubris. To the Greeks, hubris referred to extreme pride, especially pride and ambition so great that they offend the gods and lead to one’s downfall. Hubris was a character flaw often seen in the heroes of classical Greek tragedy, including Oedipus and Achilles. The familiar old saying “Pride goeth before a fall” is basically talking about hubris. Still holds true today. Babur, the great Mughal, (Mongol) ruler at age twelve, first Emperor of India, a dynasty that lasted over three hundred years, was apparently boastful about his battles, physical feats and epic drinking parties. His humble moments came upon assessing what went wrong or right and in his memoirs reflected on his mistakes. Humayun was his favourite son. A great warrior. There is a legend, that since Humayun was grievously ill, Babur walked around the young man’s bed and asked God to take him in his son’s place. As Humayun recovered, so it was said, Babur fell ill and died. How can we ever *know* what really happened. As Godspell mentioned in a previous post, “would we ever know if God performed a miracle”. I am also agnostic. But I add to your meaning one thing. I don’t really know but I do not discount one existing. Your best debate,I maintain, was with Michael Brown. You both made solid and compelling arguments without attacking each other. I saw a genuine appreciation for one another. Even at your FFR speech,where you were presented with some kind of trophy, I admired how you established your presence and reminding atheist( those in attendance) that some of their actions you do not agree with. We don’t understand everything and some things remain unexplainable. I’m okay with that and it sounds like you are too. Can we ever know everything? Probably not. Great post and humility! Go Clermson.
yeah, they ain’t humble, but I’m pulling for them. A nice bottle of wine is riding on it!
It’s pretty difficult to explain something this heavy in a short blog post, and at first it sounded like you were writing about that Great Chain of Being, until you weren’t. By “creating God in our image” (not an idea I subscribe to), might one argue that we as a species (not just you personally) have in fact failed to conceive of a higher form of existence? I mean as we can’t conceive of a higher form of existence, that also means we can’t disprove it. I do maintain that Christianity has had some amazing theological thinking, and am a practicing Catholic. But has anybody tried to work out the theological implications of your revelation?
Absolutely — it’s a major form of theology, called apophatic.
As a thought-provoking piece, this was very good! Thanks for the intellectual challenge. I want to raise an issue, though.
I feel like you make a non sequitur leap in your logic. You say that rocks and plants can’t imagine a Hawkings or Wright. But if dandelions could think, it seems to me that they would understand that they were walked on by a human. Why? Because we are all made of the same stuff. Rocks, plants, humans are all physical things built with the same atomic elements.
Your discussion of a something higher appears to posit a “thing” (force? spirit? mind?) that is evidently NOT made of the same atomic elements. If it were made of the same stuff as us, we would at least be able to detect it. Even if we didn’t understand it’s thoughts, we’d know it was there–like the dandelion knowing it’s been trampled. I don’t think you have demonstrated why I should think there is something else that goes beyond the material world. Given what we know about the universe, I don’t see what logic allows one to assert that something exists beyond our material substances. Can I say that conclusively? No. But I don’t know there isn’t a teapot between us and Mars, either. I’m not going to believe one is there, however, without some evidence.
I don’t think this is hubris. If we discover that humans are not the “pinnacle” of life forms, so be it. I don’t think I’m obligated, however, to conceive of some non-material higher power in order to be humble.
Thanks for your thoughts. I enjoyed mulling this over in my head and responding. All in fun, of course.
I think I understand why you are saying
Two points
First
consider does “spirit” precede “material” as most religionist believe, or vice versa as secularist, particularly communists, are/were famous for believing
if higher being is “spirt”, as I believe John the Evangelist contends, and if humans are essentially “spirit”, then I think humans have the potential to understand this higher being,
yes that is a number of “ifs”,
If it’s not experienced by the senses ,it doesn’t exist
Really? Seems pretty easy to think of masses of exceptions.
Bart,
You may have made Elon Musk (we live in a simulation) or Muslims (God is inscrutable) very happy. 🙂
Question: Wouldn’t believers also agree, but say that this was the point of the incarnation – to make God able to communicate with us in at our own level? Or even any other form of revelation? (While we can’t talk or reason with our dog, since they lack the the ability to talk or reason, couldn’t a higher level communicate with humans who can talk and reason?)
Yup, that’s a common view among Christians.
1. Sumerians, Mesopotamians were in general a helll of a lot smarter than the infantalized culture of today. 2. species without brains have intelligence in fact fungi are so intelligent they spend most of their time cleaning up the mess you’re making of the planet. 3. we can’t know about anything outside the bounds of scientific inquiry. That’s not just God that’s existence after death including ghosts or spirits. We can’t know reality only thing we can know is what we believe and just because we believe something doesn’t make it more rational than what others believed doesn’t matter when they lived because we have just as many biases blinding us as they had.
Second
but re:
Then what in the blazes should should make me think that I could possibly know if there was a higher order above me, superior to me in ways that I simply can’t imagine?
i guess
1. according to Abrahamic religions humans are created in the image of that higher order being
and
2. also according to Abrahamic religions, this higher order being has revealed Itself to human beings or at least to Its prophets.
and
3. according at least to Jesus, humans are actually sons and daughters of that being
Of course there’s a limitation to our abilities to observe and reason. So I think it’s only fair to assume that there IS more to the cosmos than any of us can fathom. But that’s about all we can say about it! The moment you try and say what more there is beyond our ability to observe and reason, it becomes improbable given that every other proposed-possible alternative weighs against it. This is how I feel about the “God” proposal. Most God concepts are cleverly defined in ways for them to lie within this infinite abyss of what might lie beyond reason. Sure, it’s a possibility, but it’s a possibility lying in a field of infinite other possibilities, so it’s probably not the case. When I state that I think God is a superstition, it is not the same as saying that there is nothing beyond what we can’t fathom. Many theists have difficulty with that
if you could choose:
would you want to live in a universe where god definitely does not exist? where, in the end, good end evil are illusions.
or
would you want to live in a universe where god exists(the abrahamic god)? where, in the end, there is a promise of justice and judgment.
Since we live in only the universe we do, I don’t think we can have any conception of what it would be like to live in a completely different one, so there is no way to make the evaluation.
Do you know the book, The Human Phenomenon, by Pierre Teilhard de Chardin?
“Teilhard argues that just as living organisms sprung from inorganic matter and evolved into ever more complex thinking beings, humans are evolving toward an “omega point”—defined by Teilhard as a convergence with the Divine.”
https://www.amazon.com/Phenomenon-Harper-Perennial-Modern-Thought/dp/0061632651/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1VIQWKXWZH3CZ&keywords=the+human+phenomenon&qid=1578925651&sprefix=The+Human+Phenomenon%C2%A0%2Caps%2C202&sr=8-2
I learned about it in college, but have never given it a thorough read. Was never attracted to that kind of theology….
Got to this late, so my comment is likely to be lost in the noise, but YOU NAILED IT. In philosophical/religious discussions over the years, i’ve made the same assertion. If there is a supernatural being that is affecting our lives, we have the same chance of understanding it that the ants in an ant farm do.
Well done, Doctor.
Well first of all, this sounds much more comfortable than fasting in the desert, or trudging along the hot dusty road to Damascus.
Secondly, my idea has long been that a finite being could imagine the existence of an infinite one, but could never possibly perceive such a being, let alone comprehend it. One might go so far as to say, as Scotus Erigena did, that God transcends being, and therefore is neither existent nor nonexistent. (The Irish can be frustratingly elusive at times, I must admit).
You’ve read Flatland, by Edwin Abbott? My math tutor gave me a copy, long ago. It’s a lot like what you’re talking about–we live in a three dimensional world, and can easily visualize one and two dimensional realities, as well as our own–but suppose there’s more? How could we know? But we can still imagine it, wonder what it would be like.
Other animals, are, in may respects, more capable than us. Their senses are often far superior, but they don’t tend to think about things they can’t perceive with those senses, and while the more intelligent have memories of past events, and can at times anticipate future events, they don’t sit around imagining what might happen, let alone what might exist, if it doesn’t impinge on their lives, and of course their survival. They live in the present, while (as Robert Burns pondered, while feeling shame over having destroyed a mouse’s nest), they are not haunted by the past, or worried about the future. Nor do they worry about where they would be after death. We can see this, but we can’t be like them. For unknown reasons that tortured Darwin (when Wallace pointed it out to him), we evolved a consciousness far greater than what was needed for mere survival. Which led us to culture, then civilization.
And so we began to imagine spirits (of nature, of our ancestors, of other animals), and from there to gods (glorified versions of ourselves, and from there to God (increasingly nebulous and omnipresent). As our understanding of the universe expanded, so did our conception of God. But as far as it expanded, it has remained very limited, and very homocentric. We have to root it in something familiar, relatable, in order to worship it. So from there to Jesus, Buddha, and (although he is not worshiped, per se) Muhammad.
So it really is silly to say we know anything. We don’t even know what we don’t know. But we still wonder. And I don’t see the need to put any name on that. Other than ‘human.’
Great thought Bart…my question to you is What do you believe about how we and all of the it got here? Something had to create it all, we (and all of it) didn’t just appear here. I’d love to hear your response to this.
My view is that something did not have to create us. We are stardust, stars originated in the big bang. That may seem too weird and mysterious and unsatisfying, but many people think the God hypothesis is as well, since if you ask, “what was before the big bang” you can also ask “what was before God,” of if you ask “what caused the big bang” you could ask “what caused God,” etc. Either way there’s no answer. life amazingly appeared, it amazingly evolved, humans amazingly came into existence. It’s all flippin’ amazing! But so is the fact that we live in a galaxy of 100 billion stars, with something like two trillion galaxies, just in this one particular universe. I don’t think it came into existence becuase of *us*….
These are questions that have occupied me on and off for over 50 years – ever since I realised that religion wasn’t the answer. We are, of course, limited by our own (not other people’s) sensory equipment and the brain that mediates these sensations.The short answer is we don’t know and have no way of ever finding out what lies beyond our ability to perceive and understand – the hard problem (as the question of consciousness is called) is still hard. What we perceive as our universe might be nothing more than an advanced computer programme: or anything else for that matter. Karl Popper used to give metaphysical questions like these short shrift – what is the point of expending energy over things we can never find out – was his view.
When Europeans visited remote islands in their ships, often they were worshipped as gods, simply because the islanders had never come across such people and their technology before. Anything we don’t comprehend tends to get labelled, ‘God.’ These people were not any less intelligent than their visitors, simply less technologically advanced.
Another debate but we are not in the process of destroying our planet by the way, as Patrick Moore (one of the co-founders of Greenpeace); Matt Ridley; the late Hans Rosling; and Stephen Pinker will testify.
Anselm in 1087. “God is that being beyond which nothing else exists” This has long been one of the strongest arguments for the existence of God’s
My problem is not with people who view religion as a search for the higher transcendent things of life, like the thoughts expressed in your post. My problem is that most people use their religion to say that their particular view of God and the world is the only correct one, even without objective evidence, and therefore try to inflict it on everyone else, causing much division, grief and suffering.
Keep it up, you’ll be snake-handling in no time!
Yup, I’m clearly getting there. 🙂
Two comments: When we consider the nature of consciousness, we can only ever do so from within that construct. Therefore, we aren’t really making fact decisions based on the world outside of our minds. Instead, we are in search of internal emotional resolution in the face of cognitive dissonances brought about by consciousness. Navel gazing is all we ever do, and even that is not what it seems. Second, consciousness sits ‘on top’ of other sensory abilities. (The inviolate self we all feel) It isn’t that consciousness is vast and mysterious, but that it is singular and essential. Once we ‘get the feeling’ of self-awareness genetically, the rest is propagated by culture.
I can already see the Christian headlines. ‘Dr. Bart Ehrman Sees the Light! ‘
The Facebook crowd already seems convinced you’ve had a come to Jesus moment. Personally I’d have to go with the ‘Duh’ response. We can’t know what we can’t know? Well yeah, duh. 😉
Yeah, I agree with you. Duh! But, of course, sometimes duh moments can be unusually profound. One of the joys of life.
lol (No offense intended btw.) Sometimes I think cats are more advanced than we are in that all mine want to do is eat, sleep & love & be loved. Wow, if only we could all do that! We’d all be off antidepressants & have no more wars. Between blind contentment & higher cognition/IQ I really wonder sometimes if the price is worth it.
Dr Ehrman,
Interesting and interestingly,
I came across this the other day.
In short ….. The seven heavens and the earth and whatever is in them exalt Him. And there is not a thing except that it exalts by His praise, but you do not understand their [way of] exalting. Indeed, He is ever Forbearing and Forgiving.
Meaning the creatures in existence that dwell therein ( this applies to all creatures animal, inanimate and botanical ), sanctify-glorify-venerate-exalt, Him. We humans can not understand them ( maybe different language ) or unlike our language. . So, humans might be superior in intellect, however, they could be better than us in their role in existence.
The mere fact that these are creatures in existence must point to A Creator.
Food for thought !
Great post! I agree that our implicit assumption that we are somehow the highest form of existence, and in theory can figure everything out given enough time, *is* the problem. I think the analogy of a dog’s non-awareness of the complexity of the human world is the proper way to approach the issue. We at least need to remain humble in the face of the unknown, while at the same time pursuing the ultimate questions of our universe as far as our minds and our science can take us. However, to assume we will eventually fill in all the gaps in our knowledge through employing the scientific method alone is a peculiarly modern hubris. It has never made sense to me when someone simply declares “I believe in God” or “I don’t believe in God”. Beyond the semantic and definitional problems, what are these statements really worth? As you say, how could anyone possibly know either way?
FWIW – two things especially force me to keep an open mind on the question of a god of some kind:
1) The “fine-tuning” problem – our universe’s (impossibly) finely balanced physical constants – especially the fine-structure constant. From a statistical standpoint, a multiverse scenario is necessary in order to “explain” our *extremely* unlikely life-friendly universe (unless we simply accept our universe as a “brute fact” that defies explanation).
2) Even a multiverse of quantum possibilities is predicated on the laws of quantum mechanics existing in the first place. Even the proponents of a universe or universes arising from “nothing” acknowledge this – at least the ones who are honest!
1. Yup, it’s always the standard argument for “intelligent design”; but there are easy counterargumetns, that I’m sure you know as well. 2. I don’t know about that. My sense is that the current rules of physics are tied directly to the Big Bang, not to something outside of it. And that possibilities are such only in our form of reality. Are there other forms? I don’t know. And don’t know about quanum mechanics in partiuclar.
Well, actually the fine-tuning problem is indeed a problem that defies explanation – *unless* you assume a multiverse wherein the universe we inhabit can be explained from a statistical standpoint alone (the anthropic argument). The crux here is that the entire multiverse rests upon or within this “sea” of quantum probability – what physicists call the “wave function”. We run into a difficulty here because as humans, we think in temporal terms – before, after, etc., and in terms of causes and effects. The universe, or multiverse, may be eternal – in which case the whole ensemble, quantum wave function and all, simply co-exists eternally – any need for explanation rendered moot.
Interestingly, this eternally inflating multiverse idea is becoming more and more talked about and taken seriously in the physics literature, but the bottom line is that we are left back where we started – simply accepting the universe as a brute fact. So, in this anthropic scenario, either the quantum probabilities were somehow pre-existent and gave rise to the unlikely universe we inhabit through sheer force of the numbers involved alone, or they existed together eternally as part of the same no-boundary (no real beginning to space-time) Big Bang proposal (Stephen Hawking).
Now, I’m not advocating for some sort of creator god hypothesis (which creates even more questions and problems) – all I’m saying is that logically, this is what we’re left with – either the multiverse or god. I don’t see any alternative (if you do, please let me know) – at least using my limited human intellect. Ultimately, perhaps the truth can’t be constrained by our systems of logic anyway (Kurt Godel).
I do believe in a multiverse, yes. But a differently tuned universe might have led to some other forms of life that we can’t even imagine, given the fact that our “natural laws” and “physics” are all we can get our heads around, and they are distinctive to this universe.
I agree! 🙂
1. Yup, it’s always the standard argument for “intelligent design”; but there are easy counterarguments, that I’m sure you know as well. 2. I don’t know about that. My sense is that the current rules of physics are tied directly to the Big Bang, not to something outside of it. And that possibilities are such only in our form of reality. Are there other forms? I don’t know. And don’t know about quantum mechanics in particular.
Great Post! Question: If you were a “Thomas Payne” type agnostic and concluded that nature and science reveal a Creator, do you think you could know something about God by looking at creation? He clearly thought so. I tend to believe individual interpretations of “God in Nature” would all differ, much the way varying Christian denominations differ on their interpretation of scripture. Now, I am back to where you are at… “I don’t know.” It’s a very humble and honest statement. I find the statement, “There is no God” arrogant.
Yes, I think that would naturally follow.
Yes, I think that would follow.
This has always been a topic of great interest to me, that I’ve written much about in my notebooks – thanks for sharing, Dr. Ehrman. My background is in physics and philosophy, which is governed by the same desire to unravel (or at least understand ) life’s most vexing mysteries that brings me to your blog in an attempt to understand the historical origins of religions and what kind of lives their founders had.
The unknowability of higher beings is due to what some call being ‘cognitively closed’. It’s beyond our ability to conceive the nature of a God, or even an 11th dimensional being if there is such a thing. But even the Flatlanders (in the famous metaphor) could sense the presence of a 3 dimensional being revealing itself, by the same epistemological token, and on a strictly logical basis, they wouldn’t be justified in knowingly calling it a higher dimension being, even if they are correct – since “knowing” is defined has having a JUSTIFIED true belief. We might be right in our claim that we’ve experienced a higher dimensional being and even have mathematically sophisticated arguments for it, but other explanations still couldn’t be ruled out.
Now, imagine that there are some beings have experienced the presence of some consciousness much greater than themselves that, they’ve correctly been informed (non verbally presumably) by said greater consciousness of its nature (through a vision, a moment of mystical communion) that leaves them certain of it’s existence. And suppose they’re otherwise normal, sane people.
Now we can dismiss their statements on other grounds (like Freud’s idea of recalling oceanic feeling that goes back to the womb ) but how are we to know those few individual who’ve claimed to experience God (as yogis, among others) are deluded, simply because we ourselves haven’t had the same experience?
And even if we’ve had such an experience, later on, despite any certainty at the time, we may later dismiss it as something explainable on neuro-psychological grounds. Perhaps because we feel compelled to understand it in some, public, communicable way, that is by its very nature public; the domain of science. But does this subtract from the momentary private experience of ‘knowing’ something? I can claim anything, true of my private experience or not, without being able to justify in some way that is verifiable or even intelligible to others. Does that mean it doesn’t count as a form of knowledge?
Bart,
I love your thinking and have had the same thoughts. You should check out stuff from Donald Hoffman. He discusses how evolution has not equipped us to see reality as it is.
https://www.ted.com/talks/donald_hoffman_do_we_see_reality_as_it_is?language=en
This is why theism make sense to me, but it seems like a large leap to say, “Since we don’t see reality as it is, that reality is yahweh.” I had a Christian friend try to make this argument.
Regarding free will and suffering, I recently had an ah ha moment while on a 10-day mediation retreat that I thought might interest you. We are embarking on “intelligent design” with AI. I think the most ethical of designers will make it so AIs cannot do certain things like kill unless it’s in self defense. If we have the inclination to do this, why didn’t the Christian God? Would this have really impinged on free will? We already know free will is not even close to being as free as we think it is.
The other thought is, I do not think we are in a computer simulation as Nick Bostrom has discussed. Why? Because an internal review board of the future would never approve such things. As humans, we would never want to subject simulations with needless suffering.
My revelatory moment showed me with graphic clarity that that just isn’t true, on epistemological grounds. Who says we’re the pinnacle?
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[F.P.] Ignorant and arrogant people. Generally, believers in divine creationism. Although they admit that angels are superior entities, but that they are at the service of human beings, which is not valid for this discussion.
Now, there is no doubt that Homo sapiens spiens is a very special species in many respects, which does not mean that it is in an absolute sense the summit of the evolution of life on Earth. Among other reasons because we do not know how evolution will proceed in the future … if there is such a future on planet Earth.
On the other hand, denying the exceptional nature of the human species is also characteristic of ignoramus.
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If quartz stone and maple trees and slugs could think, they would think * they * were the pinnacle – they wouldn’t have the capacity to imagine a Stephen Hawkins or a Steve Job or a Frank Lloyd Wright.
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[F.P.] Believing oneself the pinnacle of life on Earth does not depend only on the ability to think. We must take into account feelings and emotions, which we do not know how they would be in the case of quartz stones, maple trees or slugs had a mind equivalent or superior to ours.
We do not know if they would have the ability to imagine the equivalent of Stephen Hawkins, Sten Job, Frnak Lloyd Wright and above all Newton and Eisntein.
But that is not so terribly important, since it is very likely that more than 90% of the human population that believes itself to be the pinnacle of “creation”, believes it firmly without having any idea of who were those great geniuses of the human intellect.
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But they can’t imagine something higher than them.
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[F. P.] It can be. But it is not so difficult, much less impossible, for an intelligent human being and without irreversible loss of critical thinking, to admit that it is possible that there coud be something superioror or higher to humans in our physical world, without having to involve the supernatural realm in that thought.
Of course, it is necessary to define precisely and without semantic traps what superiority or higerness is.
I have for years thought that, in the vast universe, there must be forms of life more advanced than humans. What is new, for me, in your post is that humans cannot know the nature of higher forms. Interesting.
Very insightful !! A view I hadn’t thought of, but agree. I asked a friend once what we was, he replied, why do I have to be anything? We’re too much about labels I think. Just humans trying to get along and figure out what we can to live and survive. Thanks for sharing!!
Everything has a Buddha nature. The very impermanence of things reflect this and everything is subject to infinite transformation. Are we not the animated construct of the inanimate? Cannot the animate be deconstructed into the inanimate? Everything has a Buddha nature.
1. I read you as saying you still know that the Christian God does not exist.
2. Yes, maybe other beings in other places, or beings on Earth in some millenium to come, achieve powers, epistemic and technological, far beyond and way above our comprehension or capabilities. But would, could, the height they reach be godlike? A higher order different in kind from the orders we know? An order of being not merely higher than but transcendent–above and apart from the universe? Creator of the universe and imparting purpose to it? Not a being at all, but –it’s hard to say. But does your epiphany point that far beyond the top rung of life on Earth, that high, beyond the mundane to the transcendent?
1. I don’t know that, but I “believe” it (or don’t believe it, rather), and rather strongly! 2. I’m not talking about other life forms that we can detect who also physically evolved on other planets, but non-physical forms of life. .
Bart, you’re arguing for a possibility. So yes, it might be possible that some nebulous god exists. But possibilities don’t count, especially when they lack objective evidence. You might as well say it’s possible we’re living in a Matrix or dreaming too. But it’s probable we aren’t. We should think exclusively in terms of the probabilities.
Such a god solves no problems that we cannot solve ourselves through science, nor does s/he act in the world in ways we can detect, nor does s/he guide our behavior with discernible morals we can learn from nature, nor does s/he set a good example for us given the amount of horrendous suffering in the world.
Ask yourself how your god-hypothesis might help us solve any problems that we cannot solve on our own. Without any utility such a god is unnecessary. Consider also what such a god has failed to do in the world and it’s clear s/he is an uncaring and even a terrible being, so that god isn’t worth our reverence or awe. If such a god exists we should ignore him/her or adopt Protest Theology, where we shame such a god for his/her lack of care.
Cheers!
Can you learn “to love your enemies” from nature? I think it’s fair to say there is enough evidence to tell us human beings as a whole struggle with selflessness as a way of being truly loving. As a result, we require a god as a model to guide us and to show us how.
But much of religion is a philosophical question. There is a philosophical appeal to think that a difficult life on earth….filled with pain, poverty, and suffering….could be rewarded in the “after life” by an idyllic life (Christianity) or a “new life” (reincarnation)…..provided you are a good person (or a believing person)….with the arbiter being God. The problem that this solves is one of “hope”….and addressing the “despair” of death and the question of life’s purpose. Science answers the question of “what” and “how”, not necessarily questions of “why”.
Religion is just another tool for coping with life’s great questions. Certainly not all religion is good (it ruined a lot of my Sunday mornings for a good number of years!), but we shouldn’t discount the value that it does bring to individuals and society. The Christian ethic motivates social good….hospitals, soup kitchens, visiting the elderly, schools, etc. The Christian ethic motivates people to not behave in ways that harm society….adultery, murder, stealing, lying, cheating…..all positive things. Even the act of worship brings communities together…for at least an hour. Is it bad when people believe in world-wide floods or towers of Babel or stories of other miracles? If it’s science….yes…if it’s philosophy, I’m not so sure. We all derive values from different perspectives….not all religious values are bad. Some are good……as are the traditions that create communities. People love their shared stories. I may agree that the evidence for God is thin…and that there is some cost to self delusion….but if the possibility of God increases social value, I’m not sure that you throw it all out.
“You might as well say it’s possible we’re living in a Matrix or dreaming too. But it’s probable we aren’t. We should think exclusively in terms of the probabilities.”
Do you have any evidence to support your claim we are probably not living in a Matrix or a dream etc.
I think rational people think in terms of probabilities and consequences. Thinking exclusively in terms of probabilities is not rational. If we are in a matrix and there is no way to tell, then there seems to be little by way of consequence for holding the false belief we are not in a matrix.
Science can not answer all the questions of morality. It can tell us “what is” but not what ought to be. We can not see what is moral (what ought to be) just by looking at nature – what is. God would certainly be useful for answering those questions!
You can try to dispute this but I would just say it is no coincidence that atheist philosophers tend to reject moral realism (although there are exceptions) while theist philosophers accept moral realism. There are real problems when one tries to hold on to both moral realism and naturalism/atheism.
Yes, there are good reasons to think we’re not in a Matrix or dreaming right now, plenty of them. I’ve written about them in “The Outsider Test for Faith.” Find it in a good library if interested, as I’m not prone to do so on my phone.
I asked: “Do you have any evidence to support your claim we are probably not living in a Matrix or a dream etc.”?
You responded: “Yes, there are good reasons to think we’re not in a Matrix or dreaming right now, plenty of them.”
“Good reasons” to think X might be evidence that makes X more probable, or it might be something else – such as a pragmatic analysis of possible consequences of being wrong. That was the point of my post – rational people do more than just consider probabilities they also consider consequences.
I am asking what *evidence* do you think we have that makes it probable we are not in a matrix or Cartesian doubt scenario? It seems to me that any “evidence” you produce could equally well be accounted for by one of those scenarios. It is up to you if you want to share the evidence.
Hi John – I agree that the god you’re describing isn’t worthy of our praise or even our time. I think Bart would agree. I think this sort of god has become less and less necessary as humanity has progressed and closed more and more gaps in our knowledge (though sadly, we tend to slip backward a lot in our thinking and behavior too).
However, I think the matter under discussion here is of a more philosophical nature – the limits of our human mind in grasping all of what may be “out there”, why the universe (or anything at all) exists (Jim Holt), why the constants of physics have the values they do (Paul Davies), the “hard” problem of consciousness (David Chalmers), the “unreasonable effectiveness” of mathematics in the natural sciences (Eugene Wigner), where do quantum probabilities themselves come from, etc.
The positivist approach (declaring as irrational or irrelevant any idea outside of the evidence of our senses) that I think you’re advocating would no longer be sufficient for most scientists these days.
Just my 2 cents – Cheers!
If it isn’t a discussion that starts with evidence then what kind of science is that?
All of physics, and all physicists worth their salt, are first and foremost grounded in reality. Their legitimate theories are also, but where their subsequent ideas come from and lead them to are often far beyond what their data can prove to them at the moment. All we need do is remember Einstein and where his “thought experiments” took him.
Yep.
And yep re: Abbot.
In the original “Aladdin” cartoon movie, the genie (Robin Williams) delivers a one-liner as a caricatured Rodney Dangerfield. I laughed my ass off. Not my quite young daughter, though; she had zero knowledge of Rodney Dangerfield, no referent. What y’all need is a…referent.
Suggest: “Sylvester and the Magic Pebble” (1969) a children’s illustrated book. An easy read. Tackles such questions as “What does a conscious person look like to an observer?”
Have fun.
I want my beliefs to be rational. Whether they qualify as “knowledge” is not something I care about.
Belief is a disposition to act a certain way in certain circumstances. If you act like God exists then you believe in God. If you act like God doesn’t exist then you believe God doesn’t exist.
If Christians had perfect faith/belief they would not sin.
Whether you think belief in God would effect your actions depends your meta-ethical views. Lots of ink is spilled with people arguing about whether we have allot or a little evidence. The evidence is what it is. Whether you consider it a lot or a little depends on what you want to do with your life. If you want to live your life so that you fill your head with as many beliefs that are more likely true than not true and expunge any beliefs that don’t meet this imagined burden of proof then you will look at the evidence for God one way.
If your goal is to live a life that is really moral then you look at things differently. I agree with philosophers like Richard Joyce, Sharon Street, Mark Linnville and Thomas Nagel, that although it is possible there might be an objectively real moral way to live without God, our beliefs about what that would require would be unreliable. Evolution is based on material consequences and morality has no material indicia. So there is no way evolution could be sensitive to moral truth. Joyce and Street chose to reject belief in real morality Linneville chose belief in God as a way to inform objective morality. Nagel seems to be still sorting out his own views.
If you recognize God (or some other being that didn’t come to be by natural selection) is the the only way to learn what morality is, then you will look for evidence of this being and go with the one best supported by the evidence. “Best supported by the evidence” is comparing the evidence for the different religions that provide a moral code. So you would compare Judaism versus Islam versus Christianity etc. and then decide which has the best evidence supporting them. Whether any has evidence making them more likely than not true is irrelevant.
Bart,
It might interest you that one time in my life I read the collected works of Karl Marx. He spoke of atheism in a different way than we do today. We must remember that in Marx’s time living in Europe, the states there were Christian. I’ve been told that Germany today remains technically a Christian state. Back then, the population was required to be Christian, just like here in some states in the very early days.
At Marx’s time in the 1800’s he spoke of the Northern United States as being an “atheist” country. It is because people at this time and place were not required to believe in Christ, and therefore the government was atheist (a-theism, or non-theist). He likened nations requiring a belief in Christ to be child-states, not yet grown up, still holding to mama’s apron strings.
When I taught Biochemistry, I used to point out to my students–usually toward the end of the semester when we were doing intermediary metabolism–that the more we learn, the more improbable this all seems; there must be a third option, between evolution and creation. It’s just not possible that someone could be smart enough to design a human and get it to work or that such mind boggling complexity could evolve by atoms randomly knocking about. I was particularly impressed by how fragile the whole thing is: one wrong base-pair in a DNA molecule, one wrong amino acid in a protein, one neurotransmitter concentration off and the system crashes. I pictured some Project Manager in God’s workshop being hooted down when he first floated the idea for a self-aware, replicating, carbon-based life form..
Recommend “The Tangled Tree” by David Quammen. There’s at least a, if not the, 3rd option. Right up your biochemistry alley.
Looking down on us a superior being would understand our “hubris” is our downfall. So, we have the words that define a divine (higher being) concept – “For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
“But possibilities don’t count, especially when they lack objective evidence.”
IMO Rational people don’t discount possibilities in making choices.
Moreover, people try to differentiate objective evidence from subjective evidence in all sorts of ways. But the only clear way to distinguish the two is to say objective evidence is evidence that is available to the public or can be perceived by others. Subjective evidence is not available to be examined by the public. Other ways of trying to distinguish these inevitably just lead to people trying to argue this is “good evidence” versus “bad evidence” and/or drawing vague and ambiguous distinctions about what is an opinion etc. These are of course full of further ambiguities as Professor Corvino explains:
https://www.philosophersmag.com/essays/26-the-fact-opinion-distinction
Using that distinction is objective evidence better?
If I witness a crime with my own eyes that is subjective evidence that I have as to who committed the crime. The evidence is an experience I had that I can not share with the public. I can not take them in a time machine and give them my experience of seeing the crime. Therefore the evidence I use to support my belief as to who committed the crime (my experience of witnessing the crime) is subjective.
I can, of course, write down an account of what I saw and make it available to anyone who wants to see it. Then my written testimony would be generally available to the public and therefore “objective.” It is available for anyone to evaluate. But, of course, the writing is not necessarily better or stronger evidence than the subjective experience of witnessing the crime first hand.
Consider a medical condition and the most significant criteria is that it causes pain in a certain part of your elbow. Now you feel this pain in your elbow. But of course no one else can feel your pain. Pain is a quintessentially subjective symptom. Nevertheless that pain may very well be the strongest evidence that you have that condition. It would be foolish to discount your pain just because pain is subjective.
I am not saying this weighs one way or another in the God debate but you keep repeating this requirement for “objective evidence” and it is unclear what you mean.
2 Words. Virtual Reality. Consciousness being the only fundamental.
Bart,
Thank you. Deeply stimulating post, as always. Three points:
1- I’ve always thought it naive to assume we can know God with only five senses. While the mind can do wondrous things with the data from those senses, the “inputs,” if you will, are only five. It does not take much imagination to know we experience a different world without one of those senses (sight, for example, or hearing), and we would experience a very different world with a sixth sense. Or a seventh, Or an eighth.
2- Thus, by definition, I know only a very narrow (though wondrous) world of only five senses. I can’t know or imagine what else I might perceive with more and different senses, so for me, by definition, I cannot know if, and what, is beyond that limited set of senses. Thus I cannot “know” if there is God, or the nature of that God if there is one. Thus I am agnostic. I don’t know, and can’t know.
3- But I think we all have a yearning, a hope, for something. That is why I have always cherished Joseph Campbell’s idea of “the masks of God.” Individuals in most if not all cultures seem to think or hope or believe there is a God, so they create a mask for that aspiration or belief, build a ritual framework around it, and call it God. Well, as you put it a couple of weeks ago, like Socrates, we’ll find out. At a minimum death will be a sleep, and if there is an afterlife, so much the better! I look forward to seeing you in March at the Smithsonian.
Thank you for sharing your very personal insight Bart.
I think much confusion is spread using the word God, gods, or god because these terms are filled, infused, and loaded with meaning from both our individual and collective CONSCIOUSNESS ~ I.E.; Bart specializes in history of the bible because that was his passion from the start. Bart’s passion changed, but his perspective has always been rooted in/come out of the origins of his original faith (which resonates with so many people who read his frickin awesome HISTORY based works, BTW). But when breaking down words and meanings and core “belief” and latest understanding of our world & universe… it is hard for us to view outside of our original orientation. Hence, I think Bart has well demonstrated the gods of the Abrahamic belief systems were really many men behind thousands of curtains over recorded history “pulling the strings” according to their times (reinterpreting). Bart has demonstrated that the ancients texts are pretty much fairy tales and legends, never worthy of literal interpretation beyond their times. I believe that (certainly for ME) this serves to prove the Abrahamic gods to NOT be real- I am 100% convinced NO GOD exists from those origins.
For the greater scope touching all western thot about gods, I reflect on the works of … Stan Lee’s Marvel Comics Universe: the Greatest example I see is the movie “Thor Ragnorok”, a modern tale that punches a hole through many iconic themes and shows great comparison to the Abrahamic stories. I.E.; Odin is Yahweh, Thor is Jesus, Loki is Lucifer, and Hella is Lilith, etc. Except in the Thor movies Odin says “We are not gods.” They are beings of higher order, including longer life, greater durability, and some have “mystical” powers… that Thor tells his girlfriend “What you call magic, we (actually) call science” – or something like that. I compare to the Thor movies because it shows just how much FICTION is involved… which Bart has immersed himself in demonstrating the same regarding MOST texts discovered so far from the ancient world.
So while it may be impossible to prove there are NO gods… as I said I am fully convinced there NEVER WAS any reality to Yahweh, Allah, Jesus, or even Lucifer (who gets a bad wrap and ends up being promoted as having godlike power and influence).
Part of me says, yeah, that’s a pretty good way to look at things. BUT – another part sees this view as a cop-out, an excuse to stop trying to look for clues about what the ‘higher order’ entities he talks about may be like. I can’t bring myself to the nihilist view that all ‘this’ (the universe, all that is, the reality we live in) is just one of those things that happens from time, and exist for absolutely no good reason. I guess you could call that the core of my ‘faith’. At least one species has evolved with at least the potential for a level of intelligence capable of using the tools of science to explore what possibilities may exist for the ‘higher order’ levels of existence which I believe (there’s my faith statement again) must exist. Therefore, I hope to spend my time and energy during my remaining days, for this kind of exploration. By using my mind, however limited and sometimes faulty that may be, and the tools of science, I hope to arrive at least some inkling of the much bigger view of our universe and our place in it. And since I consider such insights as important to our life as humans I would hope to be able to share them with others who may be on the same search. Maybe not the ‘shoulders of giants’ that Newton referred to, but at least a few rungs up a ladder.
Yes, I suppose people have all sorts of reasons to be lazy and not to keep questing. But try never to allow the misuse of a view to be a reason not to hold it (any more than I oppose cars because people misuse them).
You’ve reached it! The Omega Point!
You actually DO know I exist, from my posts, my donations, and my occasional email exchange. But you, like the puma vis-a-vis the human, have never been able to discern my superiority.
At least now you appreciate the possibility, along with your primitive inability to comprehend it. This is as far as your order is able to reach, and you’ve reached it.
Eric
Homo Superior
PS, and no, you are unable to comprehend why a being as superior to you as I am chooses to make typos, grammatical errors, and so forth.
Along a less jocular line of thought, I think this new revelation might bring you closer to my own understanding of theodicy.
The problem of human suffering is only a problem if we assume that man is the point and end of Creation (so to speak – Creator God or something else “over” us).
Folks troubled by a God who allows suffering often are NOT troubled by a God who allows the harvesting of forests or the butchering of livestock. Natural disasters may cause us (and tree sloths) to suffer, but maybe it’s not about us?
Yes, suffering is not a “problem” for me anymore. It’s just a horrible reality.
Perhaps it is obvious that our “self” is experiential. The air vibrates, and we experience sounds. Electromagnetic waves strike our eyes and we experience color. Patterns of synapses are triggered and we experience memory. Our whole experience of life is an interpretation, and that is our “truth.” Some of our truths are public, in the sense that they can be verified by others, such as the “truth” that early written versions of the Gospels exist that are not identical. But other “truths” are private, in the sense that they are valid for oneself but cannot be verified by others, such as most spiritual or mystic or theological claims or assertions regarding the intent of a writer of scripture. This means that concepts like “agnosticism” or “atheism” are proper subjects for testimonials, but not for searches for universal answers. So I think your discussion of a revelation about “God” is a great example of testimonial to your internal process, but not as comment on a universal truth.
Yes, this is definitely food for thought. My first reaction was to recall a scientist years ago on the subject of ET saying that we always seem to imagine advanced aliens in an anthropomorphic way but it is possible that the highest life form in the universe could be highly intelligent wafts of smoke which we would be unable to recognise as anything other than smoke. Oooops – I’m not sure at this point whether I have helped validate your thesis or undermine it.
Interesting article, I am intrigued. It reminds me a bit of something from Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy: something like humans thought they were the pinnacle of existence because they built cities, flew airplanes, etc….and the dolphins thought they were the pinnacle of existence for completely the opposite reason…because they DIDN’T feel the need to do those things.
In my mind, the reality in all senses is larger than the largest concept we can imagine of this universe,,,,which strangely is a confort to me.
It is interesting to see that you “where in the spirit” , or meditation had some flashes of insight of this infinity,,or what you call it. What you say give me some reflections of the whole mysticism exercise in the environment you exercise your excellent scholarship. Wasn’t it so that within Judaism their mystical search (Kabbalah or perhaps pre-Kabbalah) was using different technics in particular after Ezekiels vision which they interpreted as a peak into God’s realm. So, this mystical (in spirit) search, trying to understand the essence of God, or themselves had been with them for a long time, an in particular in time of tribulation,,,,,,,,and just look at Shimon Bar Yochai, who exercises a form of mysticism using meditation, in search of understanding God’s essence or even our spiritual nature. Perhaps the Book of Revelation who also was written “in the spirit”,,,,,,,meditation?,,,using well known symbols, numbers. Are those also a kind of understanding ourself in relationship to God. Perhaps those too are a description of our inner self and the pictures, the symbols are spiritual forces within a man. Why would this be “nonsense” when this was practiced and understood hundreds of years before the Book of Revelation was written. Wouldn’t that be “sense”,,,,at least a kind of “sense”.
Anyway, I can relate to your “flashes” of “enlightments” or whatever they might be called. For me those experiences I’ve experienced not so many times but perhaps pushed me in different directions.
Kjell Tidslevold
Quite interesting.. One piece of ancient literature that treats this subject from human experience is called Mandukya Upanishad ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandukya_Upanishad ) . You might like to read Shankaracharya’s commentary on it . It is essentially non dualistic .. Hopefully a quick read for you .,
380/5000
I am sure that you are an atheist from a very wrong perspective of what God really is. With this I do not make a judgment about what you should or should not think, let alone believe, but I ask you, what are you really? a consciousness experiencing a limited material life, or are you an absolutely material being trying to understand the consciousness of yourself?This is my opinion in short format, can I then give my long opinion about it?
The latter. I don’t believe there is any consciousness apart from a material life. I certainly know the many, many arguments to the contrary though!
Although ancient thinkers had already promoted the ‘agnostic’ point of view, Thomas Huxley is considered the inventor of the term since he used it in 1869 to describe his own view of religion, in demand of criteria when presenting evidence in the scientific. I understand the acronym of a (from the Greek “without”) for gnosis (from the Greek of “knowledge”) is used to reflect the position of someone who, faced with a subject, presents himself with “ignorance”, that is, his ignorance.
That said, in relation to the question that if God exists or does not exist, I can think that the “agnostic” considers that this question does NOT have a definitive answer, either because of the lack of sufficient data to be able to answer it finally, or Because the question is inherently unknowable, or put simply, your answer escapes the capabilities of the human being.
According to textual words by Richard Dawkins the question of the existence of God falls into a “scientific problem that I believe is not solved but will be when sufficient data is available.” This is an answer that is really hard for me to believe in a mind that boasts of its scientific character, without providing any evidence or evidence. He simply believes it and period (knowing something is not strictly the same as believing something). Using the word CREO falls into the same dogma that you want to fight. Therefore, I think that Dawkins is betrayed by his subconscious.
Your intuitive perception kind of makes picking holes in old books only useful if it helps one live as long and as well as one can.
How do you know that lower animals are unaware of us as superior beings? Surely your cat is aware of that uncanny–perhaps miraculous–thing you can do with a can opener. Also, doesn’t the very act of talking about “something beyond our imagination” imply in some sense that we’ve already imagined it? Ergo, there’s nothing we can’t imagine, including the unimaginable!
She’s certainly aware of me, but no, she has no clue what a can opener does. I get food for her. How do I know? Because I’m a higher life form. 🙂
Bart,
I may misunderstand your “ah-ha” moment, but it seems to me that our inability to know whether God exists is not based on the fact that God is a higher order of being, but rather that he has not revealed Himself to us personally. My cat knows that I exist because she can see me and interact with me. She knows I am a “higher being” in that I have authority over her and she is dependent on me for her survival. Therefore, it seems to me that we are not precluded from knowing whether God exists simply because He is a higher being. Rather, what stops us from knowing whether God exists is that He has not revealed Himself to us (for purposes of this discussion, I’m ignoring the Christian position that God revealed Himself 2000 years ago in Jesus Christ). If God appeared this afternoon, we could know that he exists by virtue of our senses (we could see or hear Him). His higher order being status would not preclude us from knowing that He exists.
Bottom line: I don’t understand why higher order has anything to do with the issue. It seems to me that knowing whether God exists can only be resolved by revelation. At this point, we either must accept on faith the revelations of God that are reported in history, or we have to conclude that we cannot know whether God exists.
I think your view assumes that God *does* exist (but doesn’t erveal himself); I’m dealing with the prior question of *whether* he exists.
I understand the issue you’re trying to address, but I’m struggling with why the “higher order” nature of god (if he exists) precludes humans from determining with certainty that he exists. Sentient beings are able to perceive higher order beings exist, provided those higher order beings have revealed themselves to the lower order beings. That fact seems particularly true with regarding to humans. Given our levels of perception, understanding and reasoning, it seems highly unlikely that god would not be recognizable to us, if god revealed himself in our world.
I guess I just don’t agree with this proposition:
“The fact is that the lower ones can never know about the higher ones, what they really are, what they are capable of, how they exist, what they do, and so on. They can’t even conceptualize their existence”
I’m not sure it does per lude it. But I’m pretty sure that it *might* (just as I doubt whether we will be able to discern much about the infinity of other universes: just not something, within teh constraints we operate within, we’ll probably ever be able to detect)
Thank you, Bart, for sharing your thoughts with us. Perhaps it is because we imagine ourselves to be the pinnacle of existence that we assume the panther cannot perceive something higher than itself. Perhaps that – in our perceiving of an animate, higher entity over us – that we talk ourselves out of what we instinctively sense.
I have become more and more gnostic as the years slip by. If the Gnostics were right – that there is a spark of God within us – then, to me, it follows that we also are equipped to perceive something higher than ourselves. We feel the need to be answerable to something. We seek to know more than what we currently know.
As an engineer, I not only need to design and develop complex systems, but I need to be able to stand back and look at existing systems. When I do that (and not all folks can!) I see a creator. If the system of that creator is far more complex than my system, it follows that this is a Creator deserving of the capital “C”.
This way of thinking is not terribly new to me so what I would ask you is: 1) How does this affect your view on suffering in light of the possiblility of a higher power? 2) And, human arrogance aside, do you think your ability to question/investigate whether or not a higher power exists — despite not knowing whether it exists — is different than simply not knowing, i.e., the dandelion, the rock, the panther? You may be a rock if you don’t know. But you may not be a rock if you know you don’t know.
1. Not at all. I absolutely don’t think there is an all-powerful and all-loving higher power who is in charge of things down here; 2. Yes, I’d say it’s a different order. and in no small part because dandelions *can’t* be arrogant! Though they can be very annoying….
To equate Agnositism with “I don’t know” or “anything is possible” is a mis-reading of Huxley’s meaning (“It simply means that a man shall not say he knows or believes that which he has no scientific grounds for professing to know or believe.”) . The Agnostic has a positive belief that the Divine (God or god or gods) is unknowable. I don’t know if God exists and neither do you. An Agnostic does not believe that the Christian God or the Hindu panteon MIGHT exist but that there is no way for anyone to know, therefore, believers in revealed religion are mistaken. Revelation has not happened unless verified by science.
That being said, I am a Christian Agnostic. By culture and inclination I believe that if God exists, s/he is a love, compassion, and justice. Existence is an unknowable, unsolvable, and eternal mystery.
Good points. But by definition, if we say we *can’t* know, we’re also saying that he might exist, no? We can’t know either way, so he might or he might not.
In other groups I’m in, people quibble over the term “agnostic” all the time. I think one of the problems is that on Wikipedia, the meaning of agnosticism is incorrect in the very first sentence. It reads as though there is a God/divine/supernatural existence, but it’s unknowable and can’t be known. Then, it gives an alternative definition. However, the sources that Wikipedia references for the first definition do not say that agnosticism means the divine exists. It says that we cannot know nor can we believe that the divine exists based on scientific or rational grounds.
Based on the various definitions, I take them to generally mean that we can’t say we know whether there’s a God or not, and we can’t say we believe whether there’s a God or not either. It’s complicated, and no one is ever satisfied in these debates about its meaning.
As for yourself, you are still maintaining that you don’t believe there’s a God, so you’re basically an atheist. I don’t see that anything has changed in your views. This post has been copied over into other forums and is generally taken as though you think there could be a God or some higher order of existence. Some have taken issue with your misunderstanding of the term agnosticism that is misleading theists.
Another problem is that several years ago, you said that some people accused you of being a *wimpy* agnostic. But there actually is a term called “weak agnosticism”. It’s not a derogatory term. So were they making accusations or were they defining the term? They may have misunderstood the term themselves.
I think the bottom line is that you’re an atheist. If you change your mind about that and think that there could be some higher order in the universe, you could just say that and forget about the term agnostic altogether—just don’t even go there.
Follow up comment—
I posed the term “agnosticism” to a couple of discussion groups I’m in. One has 90k members. There are about 250+ comments so far. Just as I suspected, no one can agree on what it means. Some hold to Huxley’s view since he was the one to first coin the term. There was disagreement on his meaning however. Others have a more modern take and are sometimes seen as part of the Atheist plus group, as in, claiming to be an agnostic theist, gnostic atheist, etc.. And then, several say it’s being wishy washy, riding the fence, wanting to have your cake and it eat it too, along with some other negative views. We can’t agree on the first sentence on Wikipedia either. Go figure!
It seems that trying to define agnosticism is a fruitless endeavor.
Dr. Ehrman,
If a rock had some intelligence, then it would understand that the snail is more advanced because the snail can propel itself. Likewise the snail would understand the advanced nature of the turtle, and so on for the rabbit, chimpanzee and human.
Now let us replace these examples with human “prehistoric age”, “stone age”, “bronze age”, “iron age”, “industrial age” and “space-age”. If modern humans would appear to stone age, bronze age or iron age humans with flashlights, machine guns, tanks, fighter aircraft and conquered them with the might of their technology; the people of those ages would call modern humans “gods” and worship them as such. But genetically speaking modern humans are not that different from their ancestors. Only their knowledge and technology is more advanced.
What this example shows is that “Gods” do not “big bang” into existence (there is never just one) but rather they advance into existence just as human civilization has advanced to godlike capabilities as seen through the eyes of bronze age humans. Therefore there are no “Gods” just different levels of advancement. It is clear from the miracles of the Bible that more advanced lifeforms are involved. However Jesus is, was and always will be human.
Here is some truth: the Earth will be destroyed at a future date and the advanced lifeforms of the Bible can’t prevent it. If they can’t prevent the future destruction of the Earth then they surely did not create the universe in which we live but have only advanced to perhaps a magnitude beyond the capabilities of the fictional Star Trek television series.
The Bible stating that the “God” of Abraham created everything is simply stating what every god of every human culture claims to have done. The “God” of Abraham can’t claim to be the most powerful God if he doesn’t claim what the gods of human cultures claim. It is a lie of course, a white lie for the sake of achieving a goal: to create the foundation upon which Christianity will be built (the Old Testament). The Old Testament from the time of Abraham is the only thing the “God” of Abraham created. But Genesis has its purpose.
Anyway, it is all fascinating (as mister Spock would say) once one understands the Bible for what it is. But as long as one looks at the Bible through bronze age eyes one will never see the space-age truths in it.
Dennis Keister
Hi Bart, I hope you are well in these strange times.
If it’s not too personal, I was wondering if you could share some of your meditation practices with us please?
Thanks a lot,
Alex.
Ah, that’s a long story. I’ll think about doing it as a one-off post, and put it on my list. I will say that I have upped my practice in the context of the current crisis, and am very glad I have.
Nice post! Too bad it was hijacked by Christian apologists claiming you are ‘going back to God’.
Dreams are good too….
I might not be fully understanding you, so I apologize in advance if I’ve got the wrong idea.
My cat may or may not know that I’m more intelligent than he is or that I understand things like “where cat food comes from.” I have no idea. But let’s grant for the sake of argument that he doesn’t. Let’s grant that he can’t even conceive of what might be going on in my head.
Still, I don’t think it follows that it’s impossible for a sentient being to conceive of beings that are “higher” than them intellectually or whatever. It may be that it takes a certain degree of intelligence or the capacity for abstract thought to be able to conceive of beings higher than oneself, but once that threshold has been reached, then it’s not a problem. In that case, it wouldn’t follow that just because a cat can’t conceive of human intelligent that humans therefore can’t conceive of anything like a divine intelligence.
And it seems to me that we can, at least to *some* degree. We may not be able to fully conceive of what God would be like if he existed, but we can at least understand what it would *mean* to be all knowing, all powerful, etc. We can conceive of a being that could create the universe, even if we have no idea how he might do it.
This seems obvious to me which makes me wonder if I’ve just got a big misunderstanding of what you’re saying. Christians have long believed that “My [God’s] thoughts are higher than your thoughts.” Cats may not think things like that about us, but we certainly think things like that about God. Maybe we are just intelligent enough to do what other animals can’t–to conceive of beings greater than ourselves.
Yes, I think too that there is a very big continuum between living beings and cats may know more than we imagine they do. But I really don’t think a slug can have any grasp at all on what I am or understand me in the least,; and I don’t think a rose bud had any way of understanding the slug. My speculations were less about whether I’m a cat who can’t understand a human that about whether I’m a rosebush who, by the very nature of things, cannot understand God.
Dr. Ehrman, I am going to have to disagree. Dogs seem to understand that we are superior to them. That is why they can be trained to take our orders and still love us at the same time. If they thought they were the most superior beings, then why would they happily submit to us when trained? When they are trained they don’t rebel against us, but rather love us and do what we say until the day that they die. You would be right about the fact that it would be crazy for us to fully comprehend something so vastly superior to us like God. However, the reverse would not be true. God, being so vastly above us, could find out a way to communicate with us, especially if he created us and knew what would be required for us to know that he exists, even if we wouldn’t be able to comprehend all of his attributes. So though you may not be aware of a specific God of a particular religion exists, I don’t think this prevents us from knowing that a God exists and even know some of his attributes if that God chooses to reveal that to us.
Yes, if we were like dogs, fair enough. But if, in relation to God, we are more like amoebas? Can’t train them!
I appreciate this post because it recognizes how complicated the issue is. Recently I have been diving more into philosophy of religion. I am about halfway through Ed Feser’s “Five Proofs of the Existence of God” and it makes me realize how little I know about philosophy, metaphysics, existence, and possibility. Sometimes I forget that before we can really know “what Jesus probably did” we have to know the conditions for probability in the first place: does/could God exist? if so what properties would such a being necessarily have? Is metaphysical naturalism true or is Nagel (non-naturalist atheist) or Feser (non-naturalist theist) correct?
So I think it’s cool that Ehrman is reflecting on some of these questions in an open and honest way, and I hope others on all sides of these issue will follow his lead.
Bart, fantastic article. It hit close to home because I had a very similar experience years ago. I was driving on the freeway and looked out at a pond off the side of the freeway. Just as I looked a goose attacked another goose probably over something super important to that goose. Anyway… it hit me pretty hard, like a revelation… that only a few feet away and completely absent from the mind of that goose, there was an entire civilization of human beings driving back-and-forth on the freeway, going to work and doing all the things that humans do. Living ours their lives so immensely more complicated than the life of that goose.
I had the same thought. there would be no way for me to recognize a higher life form if they exist.
As my kids grew, matured and asked questions about politics, economics, religion, etc., forming their value systems, I explained to them that they can and probably will form many conclusions that they will eventually need to alter or abandon based upon new knowledge and experience. Don’t be afraid to change your positions. The biggest problem is if your positions are so fixed that you do not change based upon facts. I view most religious positions as not changing based on facts. Often people are unwilling to change what they have embraced emotionally and cognitively.
Two points for further inquiry. First, does psychological evidence exist demonstrating humans’ willpower to form positions and not change based on contrary evidence? Stated another way, what are the factors required to form mental and emotional inertia that changes positions? The willpower to accept God(s), Christ, salvation, etc. is powerful and difficult for people to either modify or abandon. Second, this blog is a great forum to present facts that can help people understand and alter their positions. Ex: We can observe and measure elements being created through stars and their explosions, therefore creation is ongoing through natural, physical processes, not through god.
Thank you for sharing this. I note there are now 6 pages of comments. Seems like quite a few more than usual. You have struck a cord with your readership concerning this topic.
The original Sanskrit word of meditation is “dhyana”. In the English language when someone says “meditation” immediately the question arises: “On what?”
To make it worse Christians made meditation a form of prayer. A foolish attempt to become aware of and reflect upon the revelations of God.
Meditation, in the English sense of the word, is always on some object. But in the Sanskrit sense of the word dhyana, there is no object and no subject. Dhyana is empty of all contents.
While sitting and keeping the mind calm, thoughts arise and pictures force themselves on the screen of consciousness. They look clear, vivid, self-imposing. But they should be discarded as irrelevant!
How the mind could be aware of its contents when is looking at itself?
The subject does not know itself when it is the object of the inquiry.
All this is an exercise in futility.
6 months after the original post, but it’s a great topic!
Using logic along the lines of Bart’s reasoning, which I agree with…
My dog is certainly aware of me, especially when I get the car keys, when she makes sure I’m aware of her too. The fish in my fairly wide aquarium are aware of me, they swim from one side of the tank to the other tracking me as I walk around, expecting fish manna in the form of brine shrimp. Now the sweet potato that will be part of my dinner tonight, I have no reason to believe it’s aware of my existence much less it’s own, or it’s pending (but not eternal) damnation to sweet potato hell, otherwise known as my oven, after which it will be annihilated. I have no idea if it lived a just life. The usually good dog may end up in purgatory since she makes a mess sometimes. The fish are good, likely because they are well schooled.
Maybe the difference between agnostics and believers in God, is whether we individually fancy ourselves to be more like a Shih Tzu or more like a sweet potato or somewhere between, relatively speaking.
With so many responses I apologize if this view has been stated. To me, the question of revelation on this topic hit me with “How do I know there IS a superiority?” When I watch a bee or see a fox bounce that tail in the sunlight… I don’t realize a superiority. Writing? Arithmetic? Superior to…what…being able to make honey? Going from a tiny dormant seed to a giant sunflower? Making a bomb that destroys it all makes us superior? Not the word I’d use. And then when you read mythology and hear stories of say… how bears dream the next year into existence or how spiders weave the world … well, the “I just don’t know” argument really grows!!! I find that we may be top of the food chain but superior is not the concept I use anymore. Thank you for the openness to post this Bart.
Believe it or not Dr Ehrman, I’ve got a similar revelatory “duh” moment just one month before I lost my job
I bought a betta fish, he was on sale. Because I was new to the hobby I didn’t know that he was sick (well I guess that’s why he’s on sale in the first place). I bought 3 types of medicines to try to help him. None worked. So when I was about to just flush him in the toilet to finish his sufferings. I placed him by the sink and gave him 1 pc of pellet, told him if you eat this GOD listened to your prayers. And may GOD blessed his soul he tried to so I put him back to his tank after 10 to 15 min he vomited the food, but I kept trying with right water ph and temperature, he’s doing very well now?
Do you want know what’s his GOD (if there’s one) looks like? A FISH ??
In Genesis we’ve been told “GOD created us according to HIS image” but actually it is the other way around: “humans created GOD according to our image” because that’s how far our brain goes we can’t go beyond?
Hi Bart, I have just read one of your comments on this post saying you consider yourself a “strong agnostic and a reasonably strong atheist”. Can I just ask, what do you mean by reasonably strong atheist?
It means I’m not flippin’ crazy about it. 🙂 E.g., I don’t insist that there is no doubt on God’s green earth that I’m right, and that if you don’t agree with me you’re an idiot (as some atheists think)
Hi Bart, i’m new here. But I don’t buy your “revelation.” I think there are plenty of examples where humans recognize that more advanced capabilities exist. Anthropologists believe Homo Erectus and other archaic human species lived along side of Homo Sapiens. These other species, with lesser abilities, may have realized Homo Sapiens was more advanced. I’m sure you realize that Einstein had abilities far beyond yours. People are realizing AI can outperform humans in many areas and AI is just getting started. I have a friend who says biologists will never create life. That is something only God can do. But what if biologists, using AI and whatever else, do create life? Then what will theists say? I asked a minister of a very liberal church if he thought God could pass an FDA test of effectiveness? He immediately replied No, of course not. I think that is Carl Sagan’s argument. There is no evidence God is doing anything. If God were doing something (answering prayers for example), we could use our science tests to detect what God was doing even if we didn’t understand God.