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Really Bad Ideas
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2380

57 Posts
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March 31, 2026 - 3:49 pm

I would like to add that as it relates to the devastation of the New World, the Catholic church had initially laid out the idea that newly discovered people should not be abused. But this was changed and a series of laws became know as the Age of Discovery. A term that was used by us supreme Court and still had strength in the early 2000s by judge Ginsburg.

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Stephen
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March 31, 2026 - 5:33 pm

Somehow that sort of if-only reasoning isn’t very convincing: We could have convinced everyone if only we hadn’t been such consistently miserable people. 

That gets to the issue. It’s not that Christians are worse than everybody else. It’s that they’re not any better. And if their claims are true, they really should be, shouldn’t they?

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Porphyry

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March 31, 2026 - 6:20 pm

as it relates to the devastation of the New World, the Catholic church had initially laid out the idea that newly discovered people should not be abused

If we want to dig into it we can get into details, but I think the fair assessment is that the Catholic tradition has a mixed record on this. 

On the one hand you have the Dominicans from Salamanca and Coimbra giving a robust and very modern theory of human rights. On the other, you had a long tradition of recognizing slavery as a natural institution and papal bulls giving monarchs the right to enslave non-Christians. 

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DavidFord

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March 31, 2026 - 9:46 pm

“It’s not that Christians are worse than everybody else.  It’s that they’re not any better.  And if their claims are true, they really should be, shouldn’t they?”

“They’re not any better” in what way(s)?

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BJH1960

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April 1, 2026 - 12:41 am

That gets to the issue. It’s not that Christians are worse than everybody else. It’s that they’re not any better. And if their claims are true, they really should be, shouldn’t they?

This seems to be the heart of it.

There are religions that believe they have a monopoly on morality. Clearly, this isn’t the case. 

Many, many years after leaving fundamentalism I came across a quote from Anton Dvořák, a devout Catholic, that has since resonated with me.  He said of Brahms, “Such a man, such a fine soul—and he believes in nothing! He believes in nothing!”

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DavidFord

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April 1, 2026 - 7:23 pm

“underlying assumptions that lurk underneath all of them, whatever their valence. Namely…
_There is something ‘wrong’ with reality that needs to be fixed_. …”

Is there anything in the real world “that needs to be fixed”?

“But… We are a byproduct of the processes of nature”
Evidence?

“We didn’t so anything wrong”
Even if we raped?

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Stephen
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April 1, 2026 - 8:42 pm

Is there anything in the real world “that needs to be fixed”?
  

Now that you mention it, people could be a lot more careful  readers.

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DavidFord

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April 1, 2026 - 9:08 pm

“the formidable problem of divine hiddenness. Why would an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God allow a truth he wants the world to know to be obscured by miserable messengers”
Was Jesus one of those “miserable messengers”?

Q & R with Children – Brad Jersak – Oct 15, 2020
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hat tip
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This is a good example of why we should not read these old stories without Jesus as our guide and as our God.
Whoever wrote down the story had certain ideas about God, sin and sickness.
And God lets him tell the story even with those ideas.
In this case, the narrator thought it works this way:

If you disobey, God gets angry and makes you sick.
Then if you beg him, God will take away the sickness.
And so that’s how he tells the story.

But if we come to the story with Jesus as our Rabbi, we have to read this story with his ideas of God.
And what does Jesus show us about God, sin and sickness?
Jesus shows us that it is more like this:

Sometimes, people get sick and they didn’t even sin.
Like the blind man in John 9.
Some people just get sick.

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DavidFord

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April 1, 2026 - 9:14 pm

“people could be a lot more careful readers”
There are numerous things that “people could be a lot more” __________.

“We didn’t so anything wrong”
Is it possible to sow ‘evil’ deeds?

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Stephen
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May 7, 2026 - 2:14 pm

What?  You thought Christianity had only one really bad idea?   

Let’s call this one – the idea of Radical Evil, the Demonic, Satan, The Kingdom of Hell, etc.  A little clumsy perhaps, but a constellation of related perceptions. 

Not that other religious traditions have no notion of the Shadow, even of the Demonic, but it is seen as a necessary part of the cosmos, to be acknowledged and integrated.  Pagan Hells are invariably purgative rather than eternal torture chambers.  (Note that it is the “self” that is being purged.)   

Christianity draws its views from its apocalyptic origins. Death, and Hell, whom Paul see as metaphysical powers that dominate the world system are to be absolutely rejected and ultimately destroyed.  The Kingdom of God will be full of light and there is no darkness in it.  If you want to read about the idea of Hell, Prof Ehrman has written about it.  But whatever its origins, in orthodox doctrine it finally became a place of Eternal Conscious Torment, in which sinners will be punished perpetually. And here I’m mostly interested in the consequences of such belief.   

I apologize in advance for boring you with biography but it turns out this idea figured prominently in my own spiritual “evolution”.  You see, friends, even at my most pious, I could never really internalize the idea of ECT.  No matter how you characterized the notion, it just seemed like endless, pointless torture.  I had all the usual questions.  How would the Blessed be able to enjoy Heaven knowing that even while they rejoice, billions of people are being tormented?  How come Gandhi is in the same Hell as Hitler?   Why would pious Muslims or Buddhists be sent to Hell just because they happened to be born in the wrong time or place?  If you had asked me back then I would have said out loud what I was supposed to say, but down deep I just thought – that can’t be right!  Maybe that’s why when I finally left the faith I had no residual fear of Hell.  I had never bought it in the first place.  In Prof Ehrman’s terms, I suppose lack of acceptance of the doctrine of Hell was my own “first chink in the armor”.   

For Christians then, the Demonic is that which must be opposed, rejected, and destroyed.  The consequence of that viewpoint is that their hate and fear is projected onto anything or anyone they perceive as the enemy.   Believing that anyone who disagrees with you is not simply mistaken, but Evil, has consequences.  Let’s take a few examples from the history of Christendom.  Alas, they are not hard to find.

Crusader-era Christians viewed Islam as a demonic and idolatrous religion.  Muslims worshipped the Devil.  Curiously they were often depicted as idolaters although who could be more monotheistic than Sunnis? There arose the Medieval stereotype of the “Saracen”, dark-skinned and devilish, the shadow of European Christians.  

Consider the so-called “Witch-Craze” in Europe that took place in the 16th and 17th centuries, peaking between 1560 and 1630.  This period is extensively documented in contemporary legal, religious, and historical records, particularly in Germany, Scotland and France.  It is estimated that upwards of 100,000 people were prosecuted, resulting in between 40,000 – 60,000 executions. The vast majority of those convicted were older women although we know of the trials and executions of children. Accused individuals were tortured to force confessions, and the preferred methods of execution were burning at the stake or hanging.  

Spanish missionaries to the New World viewed Indigenous religions as demonic superstition and devil worship under the direct influence of Satan, requiring aggressive efforts at conversion to “save” their souls.  Native leaders, shamans, or medicine men were directly targeted. Temples and texts were destroyed.  Consider the sad fate of the Mayan civilization: The Maya were at least as advanced as the Roman Empire at its height.  In thousands of codices they preserved centuries of recorded knowledge on astronomy, mathematics, medicine, and dynastic history.  Superstition and lies of the Devil!   By the time the missionaries were through, only four, count’em, FOUR authentic pre-Columbian codices are known to have survived.  
 
Had enough?  Yeah me too.  
 
All I’m saying here is that if we’re going to give Christianity credit for the “good stuff” let’s not forget the cost. 
 
ps: Any fans of writer Ursula K. Le Guin out there?  If so you might know her short story, The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas, from 1973.  If not, be aware this account contains **spoilers**.
 
Omelas is a far future utopian city where everyone lives in happiness, prosperity, and peace. However, the existence of this perfect society is predicated on one horrific condition: down deep in the bowels of the city in a subterranean chamber a single child is imprisoned in perpetual filth, darkness, and misery.  Every person living in Omelas, when they reach their majority, is taken down and shown the child and assured that if it were ever helped or released, the bliss of Omelas would instantly vanish.  
 
Most people are shocked at first but eventually they make their peace with this awful arrangement. After all, the needs of the thousands outweigh the needs of the one, right?  But in her tale, Le Guin notes a curious fact.  Not often, but occasionally there are those who, being presented with this dark vision, gather their belongings, silently “walk away from Omelas”, out into the wasteland beyond the city, never to return.  
 
I trust the “moral” of the story (or perhaps more accurately, the question it asks of us) and its relevance to my post is clear. 
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DavidFord

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May 7, 2026 - 7:25 pm

“the idea of Hell… whatever its origins, in orthodox doctrine it finally became a place of Eternal Conscious Torment, in which sinners will be punished perpetually…. even at my most pious, I could never really internalize the idea of ECT. No matter how you characterized the notion, it just seemed like endless, pointless torture. I had all the usual questions. How would the Blessed be able to enjoy Heaven knowing that even while they rejoice, billions of people are being tormented? How come Gandhi is in the same Hell as Hitler? Why would pious Muslims or Buddhists be sent to Hell just because they happened to be born in the wrong time or place? If you had asked me back then I would have said out loud what I was supposed to say, but down deep I just thought – that can’t be right!”

ECT is bogus.
Did Gregory of Nyssa ever _not_ promote “orthodox doctrine”?

When (the Father) Will Subject All Things to (the Son), Then (the Son) Himself Will Be Subjected to Him (the Father) Who Subjects All Things to Him (the Son)
A treatise on First Corinthians 15.28
by Gregory of Nyssa
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Paul adds to this fact that as all have died in Adam, all will be restored to life in Christ.
Clearly does Paul here reveal the mystery of the Resurrection.
Anyone who looks at what results from the Resurrection readily sees its consequence, that is, the goal for which all men hope and for which they direct their prayers.

[M.1313] Here then is the object of our treatise.
I will first set forth, however, my own understanding of the text, and will then add the Apostle Paul’s words as applied to my understanding.
What therefore does Paul teach us?
It consists in saying that evil will come to nought and will be completely destroyed.
The divine, pure goodness will contain in itself every nature endowed with reason; nothing made by God is excluded from his kingdom once everything mixed with some elements of base material has been consumed by refinement in fire.
Such things had their origin in God; what was made in the beginning did not receive evil.

It is time now to quote the apostle himself on these matters.
“For as in Adam all die,
so also in Christ shall all be made alive.
But each in his own order:
Christ the first fruits,
then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
Then comes the end when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father
after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
‘For God has put all things in subjection under his feet’ [a reference to Ps 8.6].
But when it says, ‘All things are put in subjection under him,’ it is plain that he is accepted who put all things under him.
When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who puts all things under him, that God may be everything to everyone” [1 Cor 15.22-28].

In the last of his words [above], Paul plainly speaks of the nonexistence (anuparktos) of evil by stating that God is in all things and present to each one of them.
It is clear that God will truly be in all things when no evil will be found.
It is not proper for God to be present in evil; thus, he will not be in everything as long as some evil remains.

Paul shows, by the words quoted above, that God becomes all things for us.
He appears as the necessities of our present life, or as examples for partaking in the divinity.
Thus, for God to be our food, it is [M.1317] proper to understand him as being eaten; the same applies to drink, clothing, shelter, air, location, wealth, enjoyment, beauty, health, strength, prudence, glory, blessedness and anything else judged good which our human nature needs.
Words such as these signify what is proper to God.

We therefore learn by the examples mentioned above that the person in God has everything which God himself has.
To have God means nothing else than to be united with him.
Unity then means to be one body with him as Paul states, for all who are joined to the one body of Christ by participation are one body with him.
When the good pervades everything, then the entirety of Christ’s body will be subjected to God’s vivifying power.

Christ eternally builds himself up by those who join themselves to him in faith.

Subjection to God is our chief good when all creation resounds as one voice, when everything in heaven, on earth and under the earth bends the knee to him, and when every tongue will confess that has become one body and is joined in Christ through obedience to one another, he will bring into subjection his own body to the Father.

Paul says of himself that
“with Christ I am crucified.
It is no longer I who live,
but Christ who lives in me” [Gal 2.20].
If Paul no longer lives, but Christ lives in him, everything which Paul does and says is referred to Christ living in him.

Paul claims that the good works of the Gospel are not his; rather, he attributes them to the grace of Christ dwelling within him.
If Christ living in Paul works and speaks those things as a result of this indwelling, Paul has relinquished everything which formerly dominated him when he was a blasphemer, persecutor and behaved arrogantly.
Paul looked to the true good alone, and by it made himself submissive and obedient.

Once Paul has been subjected to God, he is brought to the One who lives, speaks and effects good things.
The supreme good is subjection to God.
This fact which occurred in one person [Paul] will be harmoniously applied [M.1324] to every human being “when,” as the Lord says, “the Gospel will be preached throughout the world” [Mk 16.15].
All who have rejected the old man with its deeds and desires have received the Lord who, of course, effects the good done by them.

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_A Dictionary of Christian Biography, Literature, Sects and Doctrines_ by William George Smith et al. (1880), 193-194
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What Origen thus whispered, as it were, to the ear in the secret chamber was proclaimed by Gregory of Nyssa as from the housetop. His universalism is as wide and unlimited as that of bishop Newton of Bristol. The whole course of this life was for him a discipline leading to virtue. If any one remain uncured by it the healing process (…) is continued in the life that follows. It may take for some, sharp and severe forms, the work of the knife and cautery ; for others, the work of God, restoring the creature of His hands to its original likeness will be sufficient (_Orat. Catech._ viii.). Those who are not sharers in the purification by baptism will be purified by fire (_Orat. Catech._ xxxv.). Men are angry often with those who use severe remedies, but afterwards they thank them, and so, in like manner, when the evil now intermingled and implanted in their nature has been, after long periods of time, eradicated, and there shall be a restoration (ἀποκαταστασις) of those who are now lying in evil to their primal state ; there shall be an accordant thanksgiving to God from all creation, both of those who needed and those who did not need purification (_Orat. Catech._ xxvi.).

The same thought of an … is developed more systematically in the treatise _de Anima et Resurrectione_. “The process of healing shall be proportioned to the measure of evil in each of us, and when the evil is purged and blotted out, there shall come in its place to each immortality and life and honour” (vol. iii. pp. 255, 260, ed. 1637).

Now the race of man is by its evil shut out from the divine, but the barriers by which sin excludes us from that within the veil will one day be broken down, and when our nature shall be reconstructed, as in a new tabernacle (…), and all the corruption that sin has brought in shall be blotted out from the universe ; then shall there be the great feast of God for all whom the resurrection has brought together as His guests (iii. p. 245). In the end there shall be one common joy for all, and those who are now through sin outside the sanctuary of the divine blessedness will then cling to the horns of the altar, _e.g._ to the Founder of the world above (_De Anima, Opp._ ii. p. 677).

It is true that he, too, speaks of punishment through aeons to which no limit can be assigned (_De Anima, Opp._ ii. p. 650) of a chastisement that shall extend through an eternal interval (…) ; but it is clear, as indeed the last word shews that he looks forward beyond this to the ultimate extirpation of evil and the restoration of mankind, to a time “when there shall no longer be a sinner in the universe (in _Psalm. iii. vol. ii. p. 289), and the war between good and evil shall be ended (_ibid_), and the nature of evil shall pass into nothingness, and the divine and unmingled goodness shall embrace all intelligent existence.” (vol. i. 844).

What is noticeable in Gregory of Nyssa is that in thus teaching there is no apparent consciousness that he is deviating into the bye-paths of new and strange opinions. He claims to be taking his stand on the doctrines (…) of the church in thus teaching with as much confidence as when he is expounding the mysteries of the divine nature as set forth in the creed of Nicaea (ii. p. 663). And the same absence of any sense of being even in danger of heresy is seen in most of those who followed in his footsteps or those of Origen. The _Apologia_ for Origen, which was the joint work of Eusebius and Pamphilus, defends him without any hesitation.

Theodore of Mopeuestia teaches that in the world to come “those who have done evil all their life long will be made worthy of the sweetness of the divine bounty. For never would Christ have said ‘until thou hast paid the uttermost farthing,’ unless it were possible for us to be cleansed when we have paid the penalty. Nor would He have spoken of the many stripes and few unless after men had borne the punishment of their sins they might afterwards hope for pardon.” (_Fragm._ ed. Fritzsche, p. 41.)

Even Gregory of Nazianzus, when speaking of the fire that is not quenched, throws out the thought, as though it were at least admissible, that there may be a …. (_Orat._ xl. 86). Diodorus of Tarsus taught that the penalty of sin is not perpetual, but issues in the blessedness of immortality, and was followed by Stephanus, bishop of Edessa, and Solomon of Bassora, and Isaac of Nineveh. “Even those who are tortured in Gehenna are under the discipline of the divine charity” (Assemanni, _Biblioth. Orient._ iii. p. 328); and they were followed in their turn by Georgius of Arbela and Ebed Jesu of Soba (_ibid._ iv. p. 204).

Timotheus II. patriarch of the Nestorians, wrote that “by the prayers of the saints the souls of sinners may pass from Gehenna to Paradise” (_ibid._ iv. p. 844). Many of these teachers were, it is true, like the last-named, followers of Nestorius, and were so far not in communion with the orthodox churches of the East, but it is obvious that the special point on which Nestorius was condemned had no direct connexion with this or that form of eschatology, and that it was derived by them from those whose orthodoxy, like that of Gregory of Nyssa, was unquestioned.

We have no evidence that the belief in the ἀποκαταστασις which prevailed in the 4th and 5th centuries, was ever definitely condemned by any council of the church, and so far as Origen was named as coming under the church’s censure it was rather as if involved in the general sentence passed upon the leaders of Nestorianism than singled out for special and characteristic errors.

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_The Catechetical Oration of Gregory of Nyssa_ (1903), 182pp., on xv-xvi
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But though the work is frequently cited as belonging to Gregory, a careful perusal of its contents excited the suspicions of orthodox readers. The traces of Origenistic teaching, especially on the ἀποκαταστασις, in the writings of one who ranked amongst the three great Fathers of the Eastern Church, needed explanation. Accordingly an attempt was made to prove that Gregory’s writings had been interpolated by the Origenists.

This idea first appears in the book written by Germanus, to which Photius refers. The work was entitled …. In the first part of the book Germanus refuted the teaching of Origen on the purgation of wicked spirits. In the latter part he maintains that the works of Gregory of Nyssa had been falsified by the Origenists, who had inserted many passages from Origen’s writings. The works to which he referred are, according to Photius, the _de Anima et Resurrectione_, the _Oratio Catechetica_ and the _de Vita Perfecta_. But the idea of a universal restoration occurs too frequently in Gregory’s writings^1 to be disposed of by a theory of interpolation, which further receives no support from any change of style.

An objection of a different character has been raised against the concluding chapter of the treatise by Aubertin, on the ground that Gregory, after treating of Baptism in cc. 34-36, and of the Eucharist in c. 37, again returns to Baptism in c. 40. But the objection is of little value, as the whole section, cc. 38-40, deals with the moral conditions which are essential to the life of grace, and as baptism marks the initiation into that life it is naturally chosen as the point of reference for his remarks.

The spurious addition to c. 40, found in the Paris editions and in some late manuscripts, is an extract from a work on the Incarnation by Theodore of Rhaithu, a monk of the seventh century, and its presence in the text is due to a blunder of transcription.

The _Oratio Catechetica_ has received considerable attention in modern times as representing more adequately than any single treatise the characteristic features of Gregory’s teaching.

1 Other passages in which Gregory teaches an ἀποκαταστασις are _de Hom. Opif._ c. 21, _in Psalmos_ i 9, _Or. in illud Tunc ipse Filius_ (of doubtful genuineness) p. 1316 (Migne), _de Mortuis_ pp. 524, f. (Migne), in _Chr. Resurr. Or._ i pp. 609, f. (Migne).

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Gregory of Nyssa, “The Great Catechism” in _Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. 5_, edited by Schaff and Wace (1893), 495-6
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Chapter XXVI. ….
Two persons may both mix poison with food, one with the design of taking life, the other with the design of saving that life; the one using it as a poison, the other only as an antidote to poison; and in no way does the manner of the cure adopted spoil the aim and purpose of the benefit intended; for although a mixture of poison with the food may be effected by both of these persons alike, yet looking at their intention we are indignant with the one and approve the other; so in this instance, by the reasonable rule of justice, he who practised deception receives in return that very treatment, the seeds of which he had himself sown of his own free will. He who first deceived man by the bait of sensual pleasure is himself deceived by the presentment of the human form. But as regards the aim and purpose of what took place, a change in the direction of the nobler is involved; for whereas he, the enemy, effected his deception for the ruin of our nature, He Who is at once the just, and good, and wise one, used His device, in which there was deception, for the salvation of him who had perished, and thus not only conferred benefit on the lost one, but on him, too, who had wrought our ruin.

For from this approximation of death to life, of darkness to light, of corruption to incorruption, there is effected an obliteration of what is worse, and a passing away of it into nothing, while benefit is conferred on him who is freed from those evils. For it is as when some worthless material has been mixed with gold, and the gold-refiners^2004 burn up the foreign and refuse part in the consuming fire, and so restore the more precious substance to its natural lustre: (not that the separation is effected without difficulty, for it takes time for the fire by its melting force to cause the baser matter to disappear; but for all that, this melting away of the actual thing that was embedded in it to the injury of its beauty is a kind of healing of the gold.) In the same way when death, and corruption, and darkness, and every other offshoot of evil had grown into the nature of the author of evil, the approach of the Divine power, acting like fire, and making that unnatural accretion to disappear, thus by purgation of the evil becomes a blessing to that nature, though the separation is agonizing.

Therefore even the adversary himself will not be likely to dispute that what took place was both just and salutary, that is, if he shall have attained to a perception of the boon. For it is now as with those who for their cure are subjected to the knife and the cautery; they are angry with the doctors, and wince with the pain of the incision; but if recovery of health be the result of this treatment, and the pain of the cautery passes away, they will feel grateful to those who have wrought this cure upon them. In like manner, when, after long periods of time, the evil of our nature, which now is mixed up with it and has grown with its growth, has been expelled, and when there has been a restoration of those who are now lying in Sin to their primal state, a harmony of thanksgiving will arise from all creation, as well from those who in the process of the purgation have suffered chastisement, as from those who needed not any purgation at all.

These and the like benefits the great mystery of the Divine incarnation bestows. For in those points in which He was mingled with humanity, passing as He did through all the accidents proper to human nature, such as birth, rearing, growing up, and advancing even to the taste of death, He accomplished all the results before mentioned, freeing both man from evil, and healing even the introducer of evil himself. For the chastisement, however painful, of moral disease is a healing of its weakness.

2004 οἱ θεραπευταὶ τοῦ χρυσίου On the margin of one of Krabinger’s Codd. is written here in Latin, “This must be read with caution: it seems to savour of Origen’s opinion,” i.e. the curing of Satan.

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Gregory of Nyssa, _The Great Catechism_ (Part III, The Sacraments), chapter 35
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….I am thinking of the restoration to a blessed and divine condition, separated from all shame and sorrow. For not everything that is granted in the resurrection a return to existence will return to the same kind of life. There is a wide interval between those who have been purified, and those who still need purification. For those in whose life-time here the purification by the laver has preceded, there is a restoration to a kindred state. Now, to the pure, freedom from passion is that kindred state, and that in this freedom from passion blessedness consists, admits of no dispute.

But as for those whose weaknesses have become inveterate, and to whom no purgation of their defilement has been applied, no mystic water, no invocation of the Divine power, no amendment by repentance, it is absolutely necessary that they should come to be in something proper to their case– just as the furnace is the proper thing for gold alloyed with dross– in order that, the vice which has been mixed up in them being melted away after long succeeding ages, their nature may be restored pure again to God.

Since, then, there is a cleansing virtue in fire and water, they who by the mystic water have washed away the defilement of their sin have no further need of the other form of purification, while they who have not been admitted to that form of purgation must needs be purified by fire.

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_On the Soul and the Resurrection_ by Gregory of Nyssa, in _Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. 5_, edited by Schaff and Wace (1893), cited at
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When I had finished, the Teacher thus replied, You have attacked the doctrines connected with the Resurrection with some spirit, in the way of rhetoric as it is called; you have coursed round and round the truth with plausibly subversive arguments; so much so, that those who have not very carefully considered this mysterious truth might possibly be affected in their view of it by the likelihood of those arguments….

But whenever the time come that God shall have brought our nature back to the primal state of man, it will be useless to talk of such things then, and to imagine that objections based upon such things can prove God’s power to be impeded in arriving at His end. His end is one, and one only; it is this: when the complete whole of our race shall have been perfected from the first man to the last– some having at once in this life been cleansed from evil, others having afterwards in the necessary periods been healed by the Fire, others having in their life here been unconscious equally of good and of evil– to offer to every one of us participation in the blessings which are in Him, which, the Scripture tells us, eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor thought ever reached. But this is nothing else, as I at least understand it, but to be in God Himself; for the Good which is above hearing and eye and heart must be that Good which transcends the universe.

But the difference between the virtuous and the vicious life led at the present time will be illustrated in this way; viz. in the quicker or more tardy participation of each in that promised blessedness. According to the amount of the ingrained wickedness of each will be computed the duration of his cure. This cure consists in the cleansing of his soul, and that cannot be achieved without an excruciating condition, as has been expounded in our previous discussion.

….the order indicated in this similitude clearly shows that all that blessed state, which arises for us by means of the Resurrection is only a return to our pristine state of grace. We too, in fact, were once in a fashion a full ear ; but the burning heat of sin withered us up, and then on our dissolution by death the earth received us: but in the spring of the Resurrection she will reproduce this naked grain of our body in the form of an ear, tall, well-proportioned, and erect, reaching to the heights of heaven, and, for blade and beard, resplendent in incorruption, and with all the other godlike marks. ….

The virtuous life as contrasted with that of vice is distinguished thus: those who while living have by virtuous conduct exercised husbandry on themselves are at once revealed in all the qualities of a perfect ear, while those whose bare grain (that is the forces of their natural soul) has become through evil habits degenerate, as it were, and hardened by the weather (as the so-called hornstruck seeds, according to the experts in such things, grow up), will, though they live again in the Resurrection, experience very great severity from their Judge, because they do not possess the strength to shoot up into the full proportions of an ear, and thereby become that which we were before our earthly fall.

The remedy offered by the Overseer of the produce is to collect together the tares and the thorns, which have grown up with the good seed, and into whose bastard life all the secret forces that once nourished its root have passed, so that it not only has had to remain without its nutriment, but has been choked and so rendered unproductive by this unnatural growth. When from the nutritive part within them everything that is the reverse or the counterfeit of it has been picked out, and has been committed to the fire that consumes everything unnatural, and so has disappeared, then in this class also their humanity will thrive and will ripen into fruit-bearing, owing to such husbandry, and some day after long courses of ages will get back again that universal form which God stamped upon us at the beginning.

….we spoke of in the previous parts of the discussion, when we said how many were the passions, sprung from evil, which are so hard for the soul to get rid of, when they have infused themselves into the very substance of its entire nature and become one with it. When such, then, have been purged from it and utterly removed by the healing processes worked out by the Fire, then every one of the things which make up our conception of the good will come to take their place; incorruption, that is, and life, and honour, and grace, and glory, and everything else that we conjecture is to be seen in God, and in His Image, man as he was made.

===========================================
Gregory of Nyssa, “The Great Catechism” in _Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. 5_, edited by Schaff and Wace (1893), 482-5
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Chapter VIII.
….
But since there is a necessity that the defilements which sin has engendered in the soul as well should be removed thence by some remedial process, the medicine which virtue supplies has, in the life that now is, been applied to the healing of such mutilations as these. If, however, the soul remains unhealed, the remedy is dispensed in the life that follows this.

Now in the ailments of the body there are sundry differences, some admitting of an easier, others requiring a more difficult treatment. In these last the use of the knife, or cauteries, or draughts of bitter medicines are adopted to remove the disease that has attacked the body. For the healing of the soul’s sicknesses the future judgment announces something of the same kind, and this to the thoughtless sort is held out as the threat of a terrible correction, in order that through fear of this painful retribution they may gain the wisdom of fleeing from wickedness: while by those of more intelligence it is believed to be a remedial process ordered by God to bring back man, His peculiar creature, to the grace of his primal condition.

They who use the knife or cautery to remove certain unnatural excrescences in the body, such as wens or warts, do not bring to the person they are serving a method of healing that is painless, though certainly they apply the knife without any intention of injuring the patient. In like manner whatever material excrescences are hardening on our souls, that have been sensualized by fellowship with the body’s affections, are, in the day of the judgment, as it were cut and scraped away by the ineffable wisdom and power of Him Who, as the Gospel says, “healeth those that are sick.” For, as He says again, “they that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick.”

Since, then, there has been inbred in the soul a strong natural tendency to evil, it must suffer, just as the excision of a wart gives a sharp pain to the skin of the body; for whatever contrary to the nature has been inbred in the nature attaches itself to the subject in a certain union of feeling, and hence there is produced an abnormal intermixture of our own with an alien quality, so that the feelings, when the separation from this abnormal growth comes, are hurt and lacerated. Thus when the soul pines and melts away under the correction of its sins, as prophecy somewhere tells us, there necessarily follow, from its deep and intimate connection with evil, certain unspeakable and inexpressible pangs, the description of which is as difficult to render as is that of the nature of those good things which are the subjects of our hope.
….
He knew what was going to be, yet did not prevent the tendency towards that which actually happened. That humanity, indeed, would be diverted from the good, could not be unknown to Him Who grasps all things by His power of foresight, and Whose eyes behold the coming equally with the past events. As, then, He had in sight the perversion, so He devised man’s recall to good. Accordingly, which was the better way?– never to have brought our nature into existence at all, since He foresaw that the being about to be created would fall away from that which is morally beautiful; or to bring him back by repentance, and restore his diseased nature to its original beauty?
….
That man is the work of God, created morally noble and for the noblest destiny, is evident not only from what has been said, but from a vast number of other proofs; which, because they are so many, we shall here omit.

….by whom was man to be recalled to the grace of his original state? To whom belonged the restoration of the fallen one, the recovery of the lost, the leading back the wanderer by the hand? To whom else than entirely to Him Who is the Lord of his nature? For Him only Who at the first had given the life was it possible, or fitting, to recover it when lost. This is what we are taught and learn from the Revelation of the truth, that God in the beginning made man and saved him when he had fallen.

===========================================
Gregory of Nyssa, “On the Soul and the Resurrection” in _Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. 5_, edited by Schaff and Wace (1893)
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And I at once tried to repeat all the devices hit upon by their captious champions to upset the doctrine of the Resurrection.

She, however, replied, First, I think, we must briefly run over the scattered proclamations of this doctrine in Holy Scripture; they shall give the finishing touch to our discourse. Observe, then, that….
Now this passage from the Psalms runs as follows: “God and Lord hath showed Himself to us; keep the Feast amongst the decorators even unto the horns of the altar;” and this seems to me to proclaim in metaphors the fact that one single feast is to be kept by the whole rational creation, and that in that assembly of the saints the inferiors are to join the dance with their superiors.

….the race of man, on the contrary, on account of indwelling evil was excluded from the Divine precinct, but that purified with lustral water it re-enters it; and, since all the further barriers by which our sin has fenced us off from the things within the veil are in the end to be taken down, whenever the time comes that the tabernacle of our nature is as it were to be fixed up again in the Resurrection, and all the inveterate corruption of sin has vanished from the world, then a universal feast will be kept around the Deity by those who have decorated themselves in the Resurrection; and one and the same banquet will be spread for all, with no differences cutting off any rational creature from an equal participation in it; for those who are now excluded by reason of their sin will at last be admitted within the Holiest places of God?s blessedness, and will bind themselves to the horns of the Altar there, that is, to the most excellent of the transcendental Powers.

The Apostle says the same thing more plainly when he indicates the final accord of the whole Universe with the Good: “That” to Him “every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth: And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father”: instead of the “horns,” speaking of that which is angelic and “in heaven,” and by the other terms signifying ourselves, the creatures whom we think of next to that; one festival of united voices shall occupy us all; that festival shall be the confession and the recognition of the Being Who truly Is.

===========================================
Sergius Bulgakov, _The Bride of the Lamb_ (2002), 531pp., on 361
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Page 361
…at least in Orthodoxy, which recognizes the efficacy of the prayer for the deceased (see below), for which no limits are set (this is expressed with particular force in the third prayer of the Pentecost vespers).
According to Orthodox doctrine, the state of sinners in the afterlife is that of a temporary purgatory rather than that of an irrevocable hell.

Hat tip
Mike Parsons, _Unconditional Love: Good News for All Creation_ (2025)

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BJH1960

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May 8, 2026 - 7:00 am

I apologize in advance for boring you with biography but it turns out this idea figured prominently in my own spiritual “evolution”. You see, friends, even at my most pious, I could never really internalize the idea of ECT. No matter how you characterized the notion, it just seemed like endless, pointless torture. I had all the usual questions. How would the Blessed be able to enjoy Heaven knowing that even while they rejoice, billions of people are being tormented? How come Gandhi is in the same Hell as Hitler? Why would pious Muslims or Buddhists be sent to Hell just because they happened to be born in the wrong time or place? If you had asked me back then I would have said out loud what I was supposed to say, but down deep I just thought – that can’t be right! Maybe that’s why when I finally left the faith I had no residual fear of Hell. I had never bought it in the first place. In Prof Ehrman’s terms, I suppose lack of acceptance of the doctrine of Hell was my own “first chink in the armor”.

I was never particularly bothered by hell.  Most likely because I didn’t give it much thought. It also helped that the head of the Bible School I attended, and a major figure in Oneness Pentecostalism, had a place for the good people of other faiths – the New Earth!

I actually don’t have any objection to some sort of judgment.  I don’t view it in the same way as atonement, which I just don’t get.

From what I can gather, eternal punishment is the orthodox position:

** you do not have permission to see this link **

Of course, that is not to say there aren’t those like David Bentley Hart that think differently, but if I understand correctly, and I’m certainly happy to be corrected, it seems to be the minority position:

** you do not have permission to see this link **

Any fans of writer Ursula K. Le Guin out there?  If so you might know her short story, The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas, from 1973.  If not, be aware this account contains **spoilers**.

 I’ve never heard of her, but that does sound good. Being between fiction at the moment, perhaps I might see about getting that. 

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DavidFord

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May 8, 2026 - 9:47 am

“it seems to be the minority position”
A view being “the minority position” doesn’t necessarily mean it’s erroneous.
This implies universalism is gaining in popularity:

“I suggest that the latest interest in Universalism, the belief that everyone will eventually be saved, is the latest fad (or, if preferred, that it is currently fashionable).
Evidence of this may be found in the fact that the view is being promoted by a number of different people who have little contact with one another and with little else in common.
Thus we find it promoted by a scholar such as David Bentley Hart in his essay ‘God, Creation, and Evil,’ and also in more popular form (I am being polite), by Rob Bell in his best-seller _Love Wins_.”

“eternal punishment is the orthodox position”
Did Gregory of Nyssa embrace “the orthodox position”?

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Robert
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May 8, 2026 - 10:06 am
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BJH1960

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May 8, 2026 - 10:10 am

Thanks for the link, Robert.  I’ll have a look.

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DavidFord

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May 8, 2026 - 10:20 am

** you do not have permission to see this link **
which cites
Bishop Kallistos Ware, _The Inner Kingdom_, Vol. 1 of the Collected Works (St. Vladimir’s Seminary Press: 2004), 48:
“I remember a conversation between [Staretz Silouan] and a certain hermit, who declared with evident satisfaction, ‘God will punish all atheists. They will burn in everlasting fire.’

“Obviously upset, the Staretz said, ‘Tell me, supposing you went to paradise, and there looked down and saw somebody burning in hell-fire– would you feel happy?’

“‘It can’t be helped. It would be their own fault,’ said the hermit.

“The Staretz answered him with a sorrowful countenance:

“‘Love could not bear that,’ he said. ‘We must pray for all.'”

======================
Encyclical letter “Spe Salvi” by Pope Benedict XVI
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47. Some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ himself, the Judge and Saviour. The encounter with him is the decisive act of judgement. Before his gaze all falsehood melts away. This encounter with him, as it burns us, transforms and frees us, allowing us to become truly ourselves. All that we build during our lives can prove to be mere straw, pure bluster, and it collapses. Yet in the pain of this encounter, when the impurity and sickness of our lives become evident to us, there lies salvation. His gaze, the touch of his heart heals us through an undeniably painful transformation “as through fire”. But it is a blessed pain, in which the holy power of his love sears through us like a flame, enabling us to become totally ourselves and thus totally of God. In this way the inter-relation between justice and grace also becomes clear: the way we live our lives is not immaterial, but our defilement does not stain us for ever if we have at least continued to reach out towards Christ, towards truth and towards love. Indeed, it has already been burned away through Christ’s Passion. At the moment of judgement we experience and we absorb the overwhelming power of his love over all the evil in the world and in ourselves. The pain of love becomes our salvation and our joy. It is clear that we cannot calculate the “duration” of this transforming burning in terms of the chronological measurements of this world. The transforming “moment” of this encounter eludes earthly time-reckoning– it is the heart’s time, it is the time of “passage” to communion with God in the Body of Christ[39].

The judgement of God is hope, both because it is justice and because it is grace. If it were merely grace, making all earthly things cease to matter, God would still owe us an answer to the question about justice– the crucial question that we ask of history and of God. If it were merely justice, in the end it could bring only fear to us all. The incarnation of God in Christ has so closely linked the two together– judgement and grace– that justice is firmly established: we all work out our salvation “with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12). Nevertheless grace allows us all to hope, and to go trustfully to meet the Judge whom we know as our “advocate”, or parakletos (cf. 1 Jn 2:1).

48. A further point must be mentioned here, because it is important for the practice of Christian hope. Early Jewish thought includes the idea that one can help the deceased in their intermediate state through prayer (see for example 2 Macc 12:38-45; first century BC). The equivalent practice was readily adopted by Christians and is common to the Eastern and Western Church. The East does not recognize the purifying and expiatory suffering of souls in the afterlife, but it does acknowledge various levels of beatitude and of suffering in the intermediate state. The souls of the departed can, however, receive “solace and refreshment” through the Eucharist, prayer and almsgiving. The belief that love can reach into the afterlife, that reciprocal giving and receiving is possible, in which our affection for one another continues beyond the limits of death– this has been a fundamental conviction of Christianity throughout the ages and it remains a source of comfort today. Who would not feel the need to convey to their departed loved ones a sign of kindness, a gesture of gratitude or even a request for pardon?

Now a further question arises: if “Purgatory” is simply purification through fire in the encounter with the Lord, Judge and Saviour, how can a third person intervene, even if he or she is particularly close to the other? When we ask such a question, we should recall that no man is an island, entire of itself. Our lives are involved with one another, through innumerable interactions they are linked together. No one lives alone. No one sins alone. No one is saved alone. The lives of others continually spill over into mine: in what I think, say, do and achieve. And conversely, my life spills over into that of others: for better and for worse. So my prayer for another is not something extraneous to that person, something external, not even after death. In the interconnectedness of Being, my gratitude to the other– my prayer for him– can play a small part in his purification. And for that there is no need to convert earthly time into God’s time: in the communion of souls simple terrestrial time is superseded. It is never too late to touch the heart of another, nor is it ever in vain. In this way we further clarify an important element of the Christian concept of hope. Our hope is always essentially also hope for others; only thus is it truly hope for me too[40]. As Christians we should never limit ourselves to asking: how can I save myself? We should also ask: what can I do in order that others may be saved and that for them too the star of hope may rise? Then I will have done my utmost for my own personal salvation as well.

Mary, Star of Hope
….

hat tip:
_The Restoration of all Things: My continuing journey beyond beyond_ by Mike Parsons (2021), 437pp., 409-411

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BJH1960

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May 8, 2026 - 10:29 am

I came across ** you do not have permission to see this link **, which I’ll read but haven’t had a chance to yet. It certainly looks interesting. 

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Stephen
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May 8, 2026 - 1:30 pm

Thanks for your contribution David, but you are rather missing the point.

I’m not debating the issue of the afterlife.  Merely discussing the effects of what became the dominant viewpoint in the church about the fate of the Damned.  I’m glad to see you’ve backed off the claim that the orthodox Orthodox position is not ECT.  

Early in the history of the church, as with all doctrines, there was a tremendous variety of opinion.  But by the 6th century, starting with one of the councils at Constantinople, if memory serves, Universalism began to be formerly marginalized in the Church.  I can’t recall if it ever rose to the level of being considered heretical, but it definitely became a fringe view. 

In the last decade or so interest in the subject has spread and there are ongoing discussions.  There’s even a ** you do not have permission to see this link ** movement online so you know it’s serious! 

My problem with the idea of Universalism is, what exactly is the point?  If ultimately everyone will be “saved”, why not just get on with, do it, and be done with it?   What’s the point of all this suffering?  Of course the fetishization of suffering by the Church  is another one of those Bad Ideas to which I will turn in course. 

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DavidFord

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May 8, 2026 - 4:38 pm

“I’m not debating the issue of the afterlife”
Perhaps somebody here would care to promote ECT, or trash universalism.

“Universalism… definitely became a fringe view”
Just because a view is “fringe” doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s incorrect.

“discussing the effects of what became the dominant viewpoint in the church about the fate of the Damned”
Just because a viewpoint is “dominant” doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s correct.
Embrace of ECT has had bad effects.

Darwin
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…disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate, but was at last complete.
The rate was so slow that I felt no distress, & have never since doubted even for a single second that my conclusion was correct.
I can indeed hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true;
for if so the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, & this would include my Father, Brother & almost all my best friends, will be everlastingly punished.
And this is a damnable doctrine.

“you’ve backed off the claim that the orthodox Orthodox position is not ECT”
I don’t recall making any claim about “the orthodox Orthodox position.”
What exact words of mine are you looking at?

“by the 6th century, starting with one of the councils at Constantinople, if memory serves, Universalism began to be formerly marginalized in the Church”
Reference?

“My problem with the idea of Universalism is, _what exactly is the point_? If ultimately everyone will be ‘saved’, why not just get on with, do it, and be done with it?”
How? (by forcing everybody to enter heaven, whether they want to or not?)

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Stephen
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May 8, 2026 - 5:05 pm

“I’m not debating the issue of the afterlife”
Perhaps somebody here would care to promote ECT, or trash universalism.

Fine but do it in ANOTHER GODDAMN THREAD.  

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