I’m not a scholar on this subject, I’m here, in part, to research comedy. I am looking for more information on, as it were, the losers, the Gnostics that we now know something about since Nag Hammadi. Recently, I’ve found various YouTube videos by what must be modern Gnostics. Happy to include some of those links, but the point is that, as far as I can see, they believe in Jesus as a mystic and hope to have some mystic experience. And I wonder, besides the theological or scriptural differences — are they really any different than the Catholic saints? There is a long tradition of monastics and of, well, mystic saints. Were the Gnostics so different, except for what they read, or what they preached/taught? thanks.
Sigh, replying to my own post. Disclaimer – I go to a rather “spiritualist” church, as the pastor of my Methodist church where I lived last described. Putting aside for a moment, whether I accept/believe such things, it seems to me that the Gnostic gospels well describe the _kinds_ of beliefs of spiritualists, or mystics, or say, those influenced by Hindu scriptures. The Hindu idea of Maya is similar to the Disaster that Gnostics use to describe ‘the material world’ if I have paraphrased that correctly. Also, it’s easy to see how groups holding unusual views could be easily identified for their non-conformist beliefs — after Constantine and The Nicean Council established conformity. The kingdom of God is within you, a well known quote of Jesus, but the Gnostic groups took this to its end, and that seems to have been their end, sadly.
Bart gave a talk to a group of Gnostics out west somewhere. There’s a couple of blog posts on it here. They definitely have views that traditionalists will find very odd. Elaine Pagels, a very well known biblical scholar, is a Gnostic. They’re definitely still around. There’s a Gnostic church on the northwest side of Atlanta that I’ve seen on business trips. I’m sure there’s more than one branch of them. Just as Christians have denominations with sometimes very different views on parts of the Bible I’m sure you might find differences among various Gnostics groups. They were certainly a varied group in antiquity.
Is Pagels actually a Gnostic? I thought I heard her say, in an interview, that she has no beliefs. But Yes, I read her first book on Gnostic Gospels. What I am wondering is, anthropologically, the Gnostic groups must have been at least a little unconventional — just as they are today, or groups today that might be in that category. Indeed, in California, there are so many retreats, spiritual groups, communes, etc. etc. And wouldn’t they be representative of the kind of groups and kind of early Christiantiy. Not so much a matter of belief, but a matter of how they organized, how they worshiped and how they spread their message. Well, of course what they were spreading says quite a lot. Just as today, considering the spread of “mega” churches, literalists, apocolyptic beliefs, etc.
gmatthews said
I don’t know why I said that. For a long time I’ve been certain I read that somewhere, but every time I try to find confirmation on the web I can never find anything to support the idea.
Am I reading this right G?
I was always skeptical of claims Pagel’s was a gnostic. This realy sounded more like the logic of disparaging critics, but I was unsure.
When I saw your post stating she was I figured you had good reason to say that, but now ya pulled the rug out from under me, Boss. Sheesh! LAst time I believe you
Thanks everyone. I’ve tried a few times to post, but I think I keep switching over to search for this and that, and then submit and I’ve been logged out. Anyway, I got several “hits” on this website search, I don’t know how I missed them before, where Thomas dydimus (sp?) , Gospel of Judas, etc. are discussed.
There are many YouTube videos of, what must be, actual Gnostic believers. Discussions of mysteries, etc.
spiker said
gmatthews said
I don’t know why I said that. For a long time I’ve been certain I read that somewhere, but every time I try to find confirmation on the web I can never find anything to support the idea.
Am I reading this right G?
I was always skeptical of claims Pagel’s was a gnostic. This realy sounded more like the logic of disparaging critics, but I was unsure.
When I saw your post stating she was I figured you had good reason to say that, but now ya pulled the rug out from under me, Boss. Sheesh! LAst time I believe you
Pagels is not a Gnostic. She writes about them. I am a “Gnostic”, but we are called “mystics” today. I can tell you whatever it is you need to know: about the Bible, about mysticism, whatever you want to hear.
Robert Wahler said
spiker said
gmatthews said
I don’t know why I said that. For a long time I’ve been certain I read that somewhere, but every time I try to find confirmation on the web I can never find anything to support the idea.
Am I reading this right G?
I was always skeptical of claims Pagel’s was a gnostic. This realy sounded more like the logic of disparaging critics, but I was unsure.
When I saw your post stating she was I figured you had good reason to say that, but now ya pulled the rug out from under me, Boss. Sheesh! LAst time I believe you
Pagels is not a Gnostic. She writes about them. I am a “Gnostic”, but we are called “mystics” today. I can tell you whatever it is you need to know: about the Bible, about mysticism, whatever you want to hear.
Thanks, Bob, but my question was whether Pagles is REALLY a Gnostic. Do you have any knowledge on that score?
gmatthews said
I’m sure I had read it somewhere, but I don’t know where. It might have been in one of her own books, but when I google the question I can’t find anything to support the idea.
I’ve had many of those perhaps including the following,
I recall she had said something about being part of a conservative congregation and that she had a close, jewish, friend who died in a car crash. The people in her congregation were insistent that he would not go to heaven. That was very hard for her to take and I think it caused her to leave that church and perhaps their tradition as well, but there doesn’t appear to be any good evidence of where she settled.
I have been absent for a couple months, but just finished Jesus Interrupted and starting on Lost Christianites. One must wonder, if Jesus had been born in India, let’s say in the late 19th century, would he have been killed by the British or would he have lived a peaceful life of a mystic like Ramakrishna, and his sayings all been recorded in a charming gospel. There is no shortage of humans with other worldly visions. And did I mention that Buddha seems terribly narcissistic about his previous lives — several statues were made of them, as well as his own stories of saving fishermen as a dolphin, etc. I only do occasional stand up lines about these things and Prof. Ehrman has such a compendium of work … But if I were to study this , I could not but help compare Jesus to other Mystics. And these groups compare themselves to Jesus. (As an aside, one of the first translators of the Bhagavad Gita was certain that the story had been stolen from Christians and could not believe it’s age — there was a virgin birth of the Lord of the Universe, etc. Mystic groups have, usually, a single head who perhaps did extensive austerities and has “secret knowledge ” and some close followers who are “told more than all the books in the world could contain” And basically, there develops the inner teaching and outer teaching And this is , I think how early Christianity developed. It seems quite plausible to me, and indeed it is suggested in the gospels that “he spoke in parables to the crowds” but told the disciples other facts. Also , that Paul was not one of these, but developed his own gospel, as it were. Jesus may well have been a Gnostic or shared or discussed those teachings / beliefs with the disciples. Sorry, I don’t have the time to do the research on this, but if any of you want to direct me to articles books etc. who may have come to a similar conclusion — would love to hear about them.
spiker said
Robert Wahler said
spiker said
gmatthews said
I don’t know why I said that. For a long time I’ve been certain I read that somewhere, but every time I try to find confirmation on the web I can never find anything to support the idea.
Am I reading this right G?
I was always skeptical of claims Pagel’s was a gnostic. This realy sounded more like the logic of disparaging critics, but I was unsure.
When I saw your post stating she was I figured you had good reason to say that, but now ya pulled the rug out from under me, Boss. Sheesh! LAst time I believe you
Pagels is not a Gnostic. She writes about them. I am a “Gnostic”, but we are called “mystics” today. I can tell you whatever it is you need to know: about the Bible, about mysticism, whatever you want to hear.
Thanks, Bob, but my question was whether Pagles is REALLY a Gnostic. Do you have any knowledge on that score?
Hi again. No, not really. I read that she is of one of the mainline Protestant sects.
This is quite interesting, as an example of how individuals can read the same source and have an opposite take away. I have been reading, off and on, The Gnostic Gospels and I had the definite impression that Pagels was a true believer of Gnosticism, self declared or not. As I recall she was devastated after losing a son and her husband in rapid succession, and addressed the traumatic events by turning to the Nag Hammadi texts for spiritual comfort. I’m sure it didn’t hurt that the Gnostics were very respectful of women, by stark contrast to the early orthodox Christian fathers ( ie. Irenaeus or Clement, Bishop of Rome, etc. ).
As a fifth-generation, pedigreed Christian Churches/Churches of Christ, I was given the “left foot of fellowship” about 15 years ago after concluding that the Gospels and the epistles really, really DID reveal a first-century expectation of a Parousia (and that a literal fiery end of the physical universe is not in the cards.) I’d also concluded that the Inspired, Inerrant, God-Breathed Word of God never – ever – said that “the Jews are God’s Chosen People.”
As these things alone didn’t fast-track me into dis-fellowship, I also became more gnostic in my understanding. At least, I reject the idea that there is evil in the world because one man slipped up millennia ago, or that is all our own faults individually. I don’t for a second believe that the “Old Testament god” is the sovereign God above gods.
We’ve been scammed.
After 45 years, if I had to sum everything up, it is this: We all have much to learn. We should withhold declarations of absolute truth until we know what we’re talking about. If you are approached by a smiling purveyor of absolute truth, back away slowly. Avoid eye contact.
I find Pagels heaps speculation on top of speculation in order to support her views. She often pretended to know the intentions of different people well beyond what the texts support. She also is quite selective in what she quotes often leaving out the quotes that cause her major problems.
Gnosticism is significantly different from the Christianity we see in most early church fathers. It may have been a movement that started outside of Christianity but then incorporated Jesus. But it doesn’t fit well with any of the earliest Christian Texts – unless we say the Gospel of Thomas is early. Finding the nag hammadi library by and large vindicated the early church fathers. It showed that they were accurately representing the views of gnostics, when they argued gnosticism contradicted the earliest christian writings.
Sadly it appears the same can not be said of how Pagels has argued against the early church fathers. Here is a pretty scathing attack on her that I have never seen refuted:
** you do not have permission to see this link **
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert