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Borrowed Nativity Story
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dgorden

31 Posts
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December 6, 2018 - 6:34 pm

There are a number of issues with the nativity, but one in particular has me puzzled.  When the wise men came to Herod, they told him “We have seen his star in the East” (Matthew 2:2).  Herod questions them on the time the star appeared, but he does not question the legitimacy of an astrological sign heralding the advent of a Jewish messiah.  What I don’t know is if there is in Judaism any reference to an astrological phenomena corresponding with the appearance of the messiah?  Was this concept borrowed from other religions or was the author of Matthew legitimizing his story by tying it to Jewish thought?

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Stephen
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December 10, 2018 - 4:50 pm

That sounds like a good question to ask Prof Ehrman.  He seldom comes over here but he is discussing the nativity stories currently at his blog.  Try over there. 

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Robert
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December 14, 2018 - 7:24 am
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AstaKask

63 Posts
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December 14, 2018 - 9:07 am

That’s Numbers 24:17, if you want to look it up in context.

“I see him, but not now;
    I behold him, but not near.
A star will come out of Jacob;
    a scepter will rise out of Israel.
He will crush the foreheads of Moab,
    the skulls of all the people of Sheth.

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Matt2239

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December 15, 2018 - 8:14 am

dgorden said
What I don’t know is if there is in Judaism any reference to an astrological phenomena corresponding with the appearance of the messiah? 

The star is often believed to be a type of planetary alignment, and there’s a lot of information about this.  It’s unclear how often planetary alignments worth mentioning occur.  Oddly, the story is, basically, astrology.  For that reason, its inclusion is interesting.  They developed a canon for the New Testament to purge heresy from scriptures, but apparently they felt the story of the star was not a big enough deal. 

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Stephen
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December 17, 2018 - 3:25 pm

Wondrous stellar phenomena accompanying the birth of special people was pretty standard stuff in the ancient world.  Not much need to posit deeper meanings here.  As above so below.

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Matt2239

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December 18, 2018 - 4:08 pm

Stephen said
Wondrous stellar phenomena accompanying the birth of special people was pretty standard stuff in the ancient world.  Not much need to posit deeper meanings here.  As above so below.  

Can’t agree with you on that.  Online material (read “Wikipedia”) detail several planetary alignments around the time that Jesus is believed to have been born.  What’s needed is some context to understand how frequent planetary alignments occur, and whether there was a particularly spectacular planetary alignment then. 

It could be that “wondrous stellar phenomena” did occur frequently, and an especially wondrous stellar phenomenon occurred when Jesus was believed to have been born.  

The presence of an unusual star in the sky is akin to astrology, which is not compatible with Christian thought.  That said, weird astronomical phenomena continue to overlap with important days in Christianity even now.  On 8 April 2005, as Pope John Paul II was being placed in his tomb, a rare solar eclipse at sunset was visible in South America and Central America.  I suppose his death could have been timed with that in mind.  I was pricing cheap tickets to Rome Italy about a week before his death and found ridiculously low airfares then.  I was just hoping to find an inexpensive ticket to a beautiful country.

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Stephen
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December 20, 2018 - 3:07 pm

Matt you’re too hung up on historicity.  These are legends, tales.  Trying to associate Jesus’ birth with astronomical phenomena misses the point entirely.  The ancients lived in a magical universe not a scientific one. 

When beggars die there are no comets seen;
The heavens themselves blaze forth the death of princes.

As above so below.

The presence of an unusual star in the sky is akin to astrology, which is not compatible with Christian thought. 

It might be incompatible with whatever brand of Christianity you favor but historically many folks have seen no incompatibility at all.  (Including the author of the Gospel of Matthew!)  

Next time I schedule a trip I’ll keep your notion that solar eclipses herald cheap air fares in mind.  Thanks for the tip!

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AstaKask

63 Posts
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December 20, 2018 - 3:12 pm

We have a 5-10 year window for Jesus’s birth. It would be very, very surprising if there weren’t several planetary alignments during that time.

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