According to the BBC-
** you do not have permission to see this link **
For the first time fewer than half of people in England and Wales describe themselves as Christian, the Census 2021 has revealed.
The proportion of people who said they were Christian was 46.2%, down from 59.3% in the last census in 2011.
In contrast the number who said they had no religion increased to 37.2% of the population, up from a quarter.
Those identifying as Muslim rose from 4.9% in 2011 to 6.5% last year.
No sign of Divine Judgement (unless of course you include Brexit).
Will this be our fate here in the good ole U S of A? There is little doubt that Christianity is losing its position of privilege in the West. As a non-believer I see this as a fascinating sociological phenomenon. (Perhaps Christians can at long last begin to identify with the pagans of the Fourth century who saw their own world of privilege slipping away.) But I encourage my believing friends not to be discouraged by all this. Look at it this way. As it becomes less and less advantageous to socially identify with Christianity the number of folks who so identify for reasons other than sincere belief will begin to drop away. When a sickly dog sheds its blood sucking ticks only then can it return to robust health. (But oh how the ticks will howl of persecution!)
Some questions do remain. Can Christianity survive in a culture without being privileged in some way? Can it survive not persecution but simple neglect? It will be interesting to see how it accommodates itself to the new situation. I suspect the most trouble will come from the hardcore wing who regard any decline as evidence of the end of things and who seem willing to encourage the Almighty to bring on divine wrath.
Stephen said
Some questions do remain. Can Christianity survive in a culture without being privileged in some way? Can it survive not persecution but simple neglect? It will be interesting to see how it accommodates itself to the new situation.
They–at least the more hardcore segment–will invent persecution. I mean, even in the US, where Christianity remains normative, you can even now easily find Christians using the language of persecution. The idea is baked into Christianity; the world will hate Christ and those who follow him, even if most of the world self-identifies as Christian, “they” will never be the right type of Christian. (It would be interesting to do a study of how the idea of persecution was used in late medieval Western Europe, a time and place when practically everyone belonged to the same form of Christianity. And by “it would be interesting to do” I mean, “it would be fun to see the cliffnotes of someone else’s research”
My own question is what is going to replace it. I have a streak of Burkian traditionalism in me, and I am concerned about the unpredictable instability that losing Christianity as a common factor will bring to society. For all the problems and tragedies Christianity has caused, I remain convinced it has also done an awful lot of good for western civilization.
Steve Campbell, Author of Historical Accuracy
I have come to accept that Jesus is a composite character of historical fiction.
I have also come to accept that Jesus ran afoul of Leviticus 17:10.
I have come to accept that Jesus was a false prophet, given Mt 16: 28, Mk 9: 7, and Luke 9: 27 — there was no Jewish kingdom of God led by a Jewish Son of Man.
I have come to accept Jesus content is similar to themes upon which Cicero wrote and Jesus content similar to the biography of Julius Caesar (one example being forgive your enemies which Julius Caesar did after his civil war. Cato decided to commit suicide rather than be forgiven or loved by Julius Caesar; did Caesar weep at the decapitation of Pompey the Great, another opponent).
I’d rather accept Christianity with the above understandings than some of the probable antithetical alternatives (worshiping Satan, worshiping Baphomet, or what have you in that category).
One reason to keep Christianity: Christianity has some beautiful music for dealing with grief.
Brahms’ music traces a journey of grief: there is sorrow, anger, and pain, but also warmth, brightness, and calm. The texts he chose for Ein deutsches Requiem (A German Requiem) seem intended to soothe those who mourn. We start in darkness, find a hazy light, and end in a sort of acceptance.
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Robert said
Here’s a start: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Traditionalist conservatism, often known as classical conservatism, is a ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Steefen
Opposition to excessive individualism would and has run afoul of certain astrological circumstances. So, good riddance to that.
Traditional conservatism does not meet the challenges of today’s world:
The power of the World Economic Forum
The problem of too much plastic in the environment
The challenges of human population greater than 5.4 billion people.
The challenge of not recalling injections when way more than 1,000 people have had severe adverse reactions.
The challenge mentioned by Bart Ehrman that Christianity does not sufficiently address government and politics. Julius Caesar forgiving his enemies did not work too well.
I have come to accept that Jesus is a composite character of historical fiction.
I have also come to accept that Jesus ran afoul of ** you do not have permission to see this link **.
I have come to accept that Jesus was a false prophet, given ** you do not have permission to see this link ** — there was no Jewish kingdom of God led by a Jewish Son of Man.
I have come to accept Jesus content is similar to themes upon which Cicero wrote and Jesus content similar to the biography of Julius Caesar (one example being forgive your enemies which Julius Caesar did after his civil war. Cato decided to commit suicide rather than be forgiven or loved by Julius Caesar; did Caesar weep at the decapitation of Pompey the Great, another opponent).
= = =
I have recently come to accept the possibility that the Biblical Jesus who had visited Herod’s Temple at the age of 12 (since the age of 12) was not at the age of 30 surprised and took umbrage at money changers at the Temple, then turned over tables which added to the reasons why Temple authorities wanted him to receive Roman punishment.
There was no declaration that the Temple had become a den of rebels until the Temple had become a den of rebels during the Jewish Civil War and Revolt against Rome.
My own question is what is going to replace it.
I’m not sure it’s a question of anything actually “replacing” Christianity. In a secular democracy religion gradually becomes a private matter. Socially it becomes a cultural artifact, a matter of art and literature. (Fear not Steefen, secularists have treated Christian art much better than Christians treated pagan art have they not?) Those who wish to know the secrets of the universe have a much more reliable and seemingly inexhaustible source of revelation – science. No, Paradise will not come. But perhaps society simply has no more need for a totalizing metaphysical foundation to justify itself.
Steefen said
Porphyry,You said:
I have a streak of Burkian traditionalism in me,
What is Burkian traditionalism?
Steefen
What I specifically meant to refer to is the general idea that it is dangerous to remake human society, because society is complex in ways that make the outcome of changes to it unpredictable. The general idea (which Burke pressed against the French revolutionaries) is that even when something in society seems obviously unreasonable, backward, inefficient, suboptimal, it is still dangerous to mess with it–the very fact that we have been doing it that way for a long time carries some weight in favor of continuing to do it that way–we’ve been doing it that way for a long time and the wheels haven’t come off the bus, and there is a value in that proven social stability that we shouldn’t overlook. Unintended consequences are real, so if it ain’t broke don’t fix it; and even if it is a little broke, you should probably think twice before messing with it.
Porphyry
we’ve been doing [Christianity] that way for a long time and the wheels haven’t come off the bus, and there is a value in that proven social stability that we shouldn’t overlook. Unintended consequences are real, so if it ain’t broke don’t fix it; and even if it is a little broke, you should probably think twice before messing with it.
Steefen
Not broken ? ? ?
I have come to accept that Jesus is a composite character of historical fiction.
I have also come to accept that Jesus ran afoul of ** you do not have permission to see this link **.
I have come to accept that Jesus was a false prophet, given ** you do not have permission to see this link ** — there was no Jewish kingdom of God led by a Jewish Son of Man.
I have come to accept Jesus content is similar to themes upon which Cicero wrote and Jesus content similar to the biography of Julius Caesar (one example being forgive your enemies which Julius Caesar did after his civil war. Cato decided to commit suicide rather than be forgiven or loved by Julius Caesar; did Caesar weep at the decapitation of Pompey the Great, another opponent).
Jewish Apocalypticism (Prepare Ye > Repent > Tribulation & Judgement > Glorious Kingdom of Jewish God Ruled by Jewish Son of Man) failed and Jesus and Paul as apocalyptic prophets have been false prophets ever since.
It was a broken hypothesis proven to be broken by AD 73. The wheels came off that bus then. More than 2,000 years later …
Stephen said
My own question is what is going to replace it.I’m not sure it’s a question of anything actually “replacing” Christianity. In a secular democracy religion gradually becomes a private matter. Socially it becomes a cultural artifact, a matter of art and literature.
I’m thinking of things where Christianity touches people’s basic way of living, even if it is a private matter, it goes beyond art and literature.
Just some examples off the top of my head:
1) Local churches are important social institutions. It depends very much on the specific community, but often a church gives people a ready made support network. If you move to a new city, and you join a local church (or perhaps if you get involved in some ministry at the church), you immediately have a group of people you are bound to in a pretty significant way. (In fact, there is good evidence that going back to the prehistoric origins of religion, one of a cult’s primary social functions was to bring people together and bind them into a social group–so this runs deep). I don’t think there is anything comparable that can play that social role, at least not in general and at scale.
2) Dealing with suffering–Christianity gives a lot of help dealing with suffering. Suffering has meaning in Christianity–see the cross, or the beatitudes. What happens, on a large scale when you take that away? Is a society made up of Camuses and Satres and Nietzsches a good, healthy, functional society? I’m not saying Christianity is the only way of dealing with how $h1tty life can be; pagan society had ways of coping, but we aren’t a pagan society anymore, so how will moderns cope?
3) Christianity offers a ready made curriculum of moral formation: If you are a practicing Christian you spend a lot of time, from childhood, being reminded of the importance of sacrifice and selflessness and self-control. I emphatically do not think you need to be Christian to be ethical, but I don’t know of a comparable drop-in replacement for that sort of moral formation.
I could go on, but these are the sorts of things that worry me.
Steefen said
Jewish Apocalypticism (Prepare Ye > Repent > Tribulation & Judgement > Glorious Kingdom of Jewish God Ruled by Jewish Son of Man) failed and Jesus and Paul as apocalyptic prophets have been false prophets ever since.
It was a broken hypothesis proven to be broken by AD 73. The wheels came off that bus then. More than 2,000 years later …
I’m not talking about its speculative truth, but about its practical utility. See my answer to Stephen immediately above.
Put otherwise: I think it was Averroes who held that philosophy was a better way of knowing than religion, but most people are not suited to do philosophy, so religion is still critical; even if it isn’t literally true, people believing it is true is good for everybody. Maybe I’m actually a Latin Averroist, in the mold of Siger of Brabant.
Local churches are important social institutions.
Dealing with suffering–Christianity gives a lot of help dealing with suffering.
Christianity offers a ready made curriculum of moral formation
Yet institutions, like people, grow old and die. Lament but at some point these institutions no longer serve the needs of people. Polls of folks leaving the church consistently show that the reason they give is not trauma, or hypocrisy, but that it no longer seems relevant to their lives. The church no longer has anything to say to them. The little town in rural Georgia I grew up in is still dotted with churches. But what you find are small congregations numbering 15 to 20 souls skewing older and older where once there were dozens. You might see one or two people younger than 40. And this in the rural south of America, presumably the most pious region in the country! Some sort of “revival” seems less and less likely.
We must build institutions that do serve our needs. And will do so regardless.
Stephen said
Local churches are important social institutions.Dealing with suffering–Christianity gives a lot of help dealing with suffering.
Christianity offers a ready made curriculum of moral formation
Yet institutions, like people, grow old and die. Lament but at some point these institutions no longer serve the needs of people. Polls of folks leaving the church consistently show that the reason they give is not trauma, or hypocrisy, but that it no longer seems relevant to their lives. The church no longer has anything to say to them.
Yeah, I get it. But it concerns me none the less that people don’t find it relevant. There was a role that these institutions were playing in society, and they are–for many reasons–ever less able to fill that role.
We must build institutions that do serve our needs. And will do so regardless.
Right. But I don’t know what they will be or when they will arise. And in the meantime there is an unfilled void.
Porphyry said
Stephen said
Local churches are important social institutions.
Dealing with suffering–Christianity gives a lot of help dealing with suffering.
Christianity offers a ready made curriculum of moral formation
Yet institutions, like people, grow old and die. Lament but at some point these institutions no longer serve the needs of people. Polls of folks leaving the church consistently show that the reason they give is not trauma, or hypocrisy, but that it no longer seems relevant to their lives. The church no longer has anything to say to them.
Yeah, I get it. But it concerns me none the less that people don’t find it relevant. There was a role that these institutions were playing in society, and they are–for many reasons–ever less able to fill that role.
We must build institutions that do serve our needs. And will do so regardless.
Right. But I don’t know what they will be or when they will arise. And in the meantime there is an unfilled void.
Well, when I was young, I can say the social functionalism of church was excellent.
When speaking of new institutions, we have Twitter, Facebook, and ehrmanblog.org, but these new institutions are very flawed–not so much Bart’s site.
We need churches with historical accuracy.
Bart’s site does not connect to theology and it does not connect to politics and government–outside of scope.
Simple example:
In the 1970s, a person could be connected to his community church by walking to church, maybe being a Sunday School teacher, a pianist, organist, choir member, etc. The same teenager could go on church picnics, date another teenager in the congregation, later get married. The minister could have christened that person, marry that person, and preside over the funerals of parents. (That church may be connected to an elementary school or a high school.)
What makes up for all that today? Nothing.
And in the meantime there is an unfilled void.
When we’re hungry we search for food. When we’re cold we build shelter. Voids exist to be filled. I guess the reason I’m not a conservative is that I am comfortable with the possibility of a world which was not made for me.
In the 1970s, a person could be connected to his community church by walking to church, maybe being a Sunday School teacher, a pianist, organist, choir member, etc. The same teenager could go on church picnics, date another teenager in the congregation, later get married. The minister could have christened that person, marry that person, and preside over the funerals of parents. (That church may be connected to an elementary school or a high school.)
Yes I grew up in the rural white southern version of that.
What makes up for all that today? Nothing.
Or perhaps you simply cannot recognize it.
Stephen said
According to the BBC-** you do not have permission to see this link **
For the first time fewer than half of people in England and Wales describe themselves as Christian, the Census 2021 has revealed.
The proportion of people who said they were Christian was 46.2%, down from 59.3% in the last census in 2011.
In contrast the number who said they had no religion increased to 37.2% of the population, up from a quarter.
Those identifying as Muslim rose from 4.9% in 2011 to 6.5% last year.
No sign of Divine Judgement (unless of course you include Brexit).
Will this be our fate here in the good ole U S of A? There is little doubt that Christianity is losing its position of privilege in the West. As a non-believer I see this as a fascinating sociological phenomenon. (Perhaps Christians can at long last begin to identify with the pagans of the Fourth century who saw their own world of privilege slipping away.) But I encourage my believing friends not to be discouraged by all this. Look at it this way. As it becomes less and less advantageous to socially identify with Christianity the number of folks who so identify for reasons other than sincere belief will begin to drop away. When a sickly dog sheds its blood sucking ticks only then can it return to robust health. (But oh how the ticks will howl of persecution!)
Some questions do remain. Can Christianity survive in a culture without being privileged in some way? Can it survive not persecution but simple neglect? It will be interesting to see how it accommodates itself to the new situation. I suspect the most trouble will come from the hardcore wing who regard any decline as evidence of the end of things and who seem willing to encourage the Almighty to bring on divine wrath.
The results in the UK are better due to significant emigration (+700k) from Poland in 2004-2015, which certainly identifies itself as Christian in a significant majority (70-90%). Poland is the leader in the decrease in religiousness in the world between the +40 and -40 generations. The pope should fire our entire episcopate.
The results in the UK are better due to significant emigration (+700k) from Poland in 2004-2015, which certainly identifies itself as Christian in a significant majority (70-90%). Poland is the leader in the decrease in religiousness in the world between the +40 and -40 generations.Jarek said
I imagine you fall harder when you start higher–the Church has been gutted for at least a generation in most of Europe; Poland was perhaps the last really Catholic country (aside from maybe Liechtenstein, but I’m not even sure about them and do they actually count anyway?).
The pope should fire our entire episcopate.
Not just Poland’s. The entire episcopacy of the RC Church for the recent past has been a study in gross mismanagement. It is honestly shocking how bad it has been.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert