I am looking for a reply from a person who finished reading Bart’s book Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife.
Dr. Ehrman,
After having written Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife, how would you answer this question,
Given these two definitions:
Secular Definition of Satan:
a constructive Devil’s Advocate, adversary, personification of constructive adversary and constructive criticism
Satan Defined in the Bible (Ezekiel 28:14-18 and Isaiah 14:12-17):
an angel filled with violence and sin; disgraceful, banished, a prideful beauty, corrupted wisdom, a splendor, unjust, dishonest, profane, destroyer of nations, would-be usurper of God, dwells in Sheol (place for the souls of the dead)
Does Satan exist?
Thank you,
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
If you have been paying attention at all, you would see that Dr. Ehrman is, essentially, an agnostic/atheist. If he does not believe that God exists, why would he believe that Satan does? Perhaps you are suggesting that while the problem of pain and suffering punches a big hole in the idea of a divine being who is all-knowing, all-powerful and actively looking after our best interests, it does not preclude the idea of a divine being who is driven by less favorable motives.
JAS said
If you have been paying attention at all, you would see that Dr. Ehrman is, essentially, an agnostic/atheist. If he does not believe that God exists, why would he believe that Satan does? Perhaps you are suggesting that while the problem of pain and suffering punches a big hole in the idea of a divine being who is all-knowing, all-powerful and actively looking after our best interests, it does not preclude the idea of a divine being who is driven by less favorable motives.
Steefen
Personification of the ungodly does not need the godly: look at Gnosticism: god IS the problem.
Satan Defined in the Bible (** you do not have permission to see this link **):
an angel filled with violence and sin; disgraceful, banished, a prideful beauty, corrupted wisdom, a splendor, unjust, dishonest, profane, destroyer of nations, would-be usurper of God, dwells in Sheol (place for the souls of the dead)
Neither of those references originally referred to the figure of Satan. That was Christian retrofitting. The imagery from these passages (and others) is drawn from a common Ancient Near Eastern mythological motif where an usurper deity challenges the High God (in this case El) for supremacy over the Divine Council. Both Baal and Yahweh began their careers as such usurpers. The irony is that while they succeeded Satan never can. Satan is the eternal rebel always doomed to fail.
A couple rabbit trails-
The Sufis, in that Zen-like way they have of reversing the orthodox Islamic perspective, imagine Satan (actually, Iblis) as the most devoted lover of God. How so? When God created humankind he ordered the angels to bow before this his greatest creation. But Satan refused because he loved God so much that he could not bow before any other. For his refusal Satan was cast from Heaven. The Sufis ask how Satan, in his sorrow over the eternal loss of the Beloved is able to sustain himself? By the memory of God’s final words when he cast Satan out. “Be gone!”
Finally, in the sixties science fiction/fantasy writer James Blish wrote a novel called BLACK EASTER and its sequel THE DAY AFTER JUDGEMENT about how Satan and his minions finally defeat God through various means which I won’t spoil. But this effort turns into the greatest illustration possible for “being careful what you wish for”! For what happens when Satan become God? Blish was a Joyce scholar in “real life” and was a terrifically witty and lyrical writer. I recommend all his books. (Check out A CASE OF CONSCIENCE about the theological crisis produced when a Jesuit scientist on an interplanetary expedition encounters an alien race that is godless yet morally pure. In Christian terms a civilization that has no god but is unfallen.)
Stephen
Neither of those references originally referred to the figure of Satan.
Steefen
Tell it to Encyclopedia Britannica
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Satan, in the three major Abrahamic religions (** you do not have permission to see this link ** states that he saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
Stephen said
Encyclopedia Britannica?Thanks Steefen I haven’t laughed so hard in weeks. I would provide you with scholarly references but that would make me seem condescending and pedantic and I’m anything but that.
You are laughing because college and public libraries no longer stack Encylopedia Britannica?
You are laughing because scholars have not contributed to Encylopedia Britannica?
Google, what are the top encylopedia sites for student research papers?
Result:
#1 Encylopedia Britannica Online
#2 Encylopedia.com
#3 Bartelby
#4 Infoplease
#5 Questia
#6 dkonline.encylopedia
#7 Encyclopedia of Life
#8 Scholarpedia.org [Ahhh, interesting; BUT, it is far below Britannica and only one above Wikipedia.]
#9 Wikipedia
Your laughing reply is not appreciated, Stephen. You laugh alone because librarians across the world do not understand what your problem is.
I rightfully skipped over the Wikipedia entry for the Britannica treatment.
Dr. Ehrman,
After having written Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife, how would you answer this question,
Given these two definitions:
Secular Definition of Satan:
a constructive Devil’s Advocate, adversary, personification of constructive adversary and constructive criticism
Satan Defined in the Bible (** you do not have permission to see this link **):
an angel filled with violence and sin; disgraceful, banished, a prideful beauty, corrupted wisdom, a splendor, unjust, dishonest, profane, destroyer of nations, would-be usurper of God, dwells in Sheol (place for the souls of the dead)
Does Satan exist?
Thank you,
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
Bart D.E.
Not sure what you are asking.
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
Does Hell exist?
If so, is the most important entity there Satan?
Does Satan have influence on Earth?
Was Jesus tempted by Satan?
Steve Campbell, Author of Historical Accuracy
I would like to add this information for consideration from
Scholarpedia.org, the peer-reviewed open-source encylopedia
Field theories of consciousness/Field theories of global consciousness
The philosophy of global consciousness: a brief history of God
Other major philosophers who have advanced pantheistic or panpsychic ideas include Hegel (1770-1831), who on the traditional reading combines the pantheistic idea that God is identical with the universe with theistic ideas about the developing self-consciousness of God – and Schopenhauer (1788 – 1860), who (inasmuch as his idea of The Will can be said to refer to a global consciousness) also holds that there is only one consciousness shared by everyone, but sees this consciousness as irredeemably evil and thus more akin to Satan than God. Among scientists, in the 19th century Gustav Fechner, the father of modern psychophysics, wrote in glowing terms about his concept of an earth-soul, precursor to the modern Gaia mind.
Evil personified refers to a person – use personification
Evil deified? refers to supernatural ruler of persons? – use deification?
JAS said
Appeals to authority?
Again:
I would like to add this information for consideration from
Scholarpedia.org, the peer-reviewed open-source encylopedia.
And no, it certainly is not an appeal to authority. Scholarpedia has not helped define the term Satan better than Britannica did.
Encylopedia.com has this:
SATAN . Although the name Satan sometimes has been connected with the Hebrew verb suṭ, which means “to roam” (perhaps suggesting that Satan acts as God’s spy), it is more commonly derived from the root saṭan, which means “to oppose, to plot against.” The word thus basically connotes an adversary. Its use in the Hebrew scriptures (** you do not have permission to see this link ** and does not refer to “the Satan,” but where the idea of a being having a distinct personality is still conveyed. This supernatural being not only acts as an adversary: his name itself means “an obstructor” (Russell, 1977, p. 190).
Book of Job, where Satan belongs to the court of God and, with God’s permission, tests Job. By contrast, in a second occurrence (Zec. 3), Satan, on his own initiative, opposes Joshua. The third passage in the Old Testament in which Satan figures (1 Chr. 21:1) is, according to George A. Barton (1911),
A further witness to the fact that Satan is now held to be responsible for evil. The chapter gives an account of David’s census and of the punishment for it, and is dependent on 2 Samuel 24; but whereas it is said in Samuel that Jahweh said to David, “Go, number Israel” because he was angry with the people, it is said in Chronicles that Satan “moved David to number Israel.” Satan is clearly a development out of the group of spirits which were in earlier days thought to be from Jahweh’s court, members of which were sent upon errands of disaster to men. (p. 598)
The figure of Satan in noncanonical Hebrew literature intensifies his identification with evil. He not only emerges as an adversary of God, but, as such apocalyptic works as Jubilees, the Testament of Reuben, the Book of the Secrets of Enoch (2 Enoch), and the Qumran documents show, he is also the leader of the fallen angels.
It should be noted, however, that although Satan comes to stand for evil, in “Hebrew thought in the Old Testament there is no suggestion of any dualism, whether temporal, spatial or ethical… any philosophy of evil culled from the Bible must find room for evil within the concept of God and within his purpose.”
This also holds true for much apocalyptic literature; signs of temporal, spatial, and ethical dualism begin to emerge only in later Judaism. At the temporal level, the view is developed that history consists of two ages. The present age is marked by the Devil’s power, which will be nullified at the end of the present age when the divine age is ushered in.
At the spatial level, the kingdoms of the Lord and Satan are contrasted as being in cosmic opposition; at the ethical level, humans are seen as being affected by sin, which will be overcome in a divine denouement.
Persian influence has been traced in this movement toward dualism. But Hebrew and Christian thought stopped short of specifying that the Devil is entirely evil in essence. This tension between explicit monotheism and implicit dualism became characteristic of Judaism and Christianity, as contrasted with Zoroastrianism, Manichaeism, and gnosticism. “The Devil,” as Luther said, “is God’s Devil.”
JAS said
Appeals to authority are invalid only when they do not support whatever Steefen wants at that moment in time.
What a faulty opinion. LOL. And not a valuable contribution to the forums. A penchant for personal attacks is ill-advised in high quality argumentation.
I believe most members and prospective members want high quality discussions.
Your laughing reply is not appreciated, Stephen. You laugh alone because librarians across the world do not understand what your problem is.
I wasn’t laughing at you Steefen.
Actually appeals to authority are not invalid if the subject being appealed to is an actual authority. if I say Prof Ehrman believes in Markan priority that is a valid appeal to authority. If I say that NT scholar Ehrman believes in ghosts that is an invalid appeal to authority. See the difference?
Steefen said
JAS said
Appeals to authority are invalid only when they do not support whatever Steefen wants at that moment in time.
What a faulty opinion. LOL. And not a valuable contribution to the forums. A penchant for personal attacks is ill-advised in high quality argumentation.
I believe most members and prospective members want high quality discussions.
How would you know?
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert