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editorial oversights in Scripture
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Porphyry

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January 12, 2024 - 12:01 pm

It seems to me that a lot of source-criticism rests on noting various editorial mistakes, where the redactor lets his sources shine through a little too brightly and frankly does his job of redacting them really badly–the literary seams in Jn, the inconsistent doublets in Genesis, editorial fatigue in Matthew.

The thing that troubles me is how obvious some of them are. It is hard for me to think a reasonably competent editor (working by hand, mind you, where each edition of the text has to be deliberately written out, beginning to end and word for word) would leave such gaping holes in the text. It would be easy to understand if they were put together carelessly, or in haste, and composed by copy and paste, where whole blocks of text could be blindly copied without going through all they say word by word.

I suppose it would be easy to think that one particular redactor was particularly careless, and periodically fell into blind copying without consideration, but this seems to happen a lot, across books written centuries apart by different redactors, some of whom seem (otherwise) to be pretty thoughtful and sharp.

I can also imagine this sort of sloppiness cropping up if the redactor is working in a language he doesn’t know well–actually translating the text takes effort, and so he sometimes falls into copying text almost verbatim without carefully considering what each word means; and even when he is thinking about meaning, he may be sufficiently distracted by the linguistic issues involved in translation that he doesn’t pay attention to subtle details that might be in conflict. But then I would expect other evidence that the authors were struggling with the languages–perhaps such evidence is there and I’ve overlooked it.

Aside from errors, there is another issue, particularly clear in the synoptics–If I am rewriting someone’s written story, I’m not going to follow his telling verbatim. I’ll internalize the story (or perhaps each pericope) and tell it in my own words; I might copy certain memorable phrases from my source, but I won’t just slavishly follow them sentence by sentence making only minor tweaks. What we get (at points) in the synoptics is a level of word-by-word literary dependence that just seems bizarre without copy and paste.
So my questions:

Is there speculation about the sort of compositional work-flow that would leave these–sometimes glaring–oversights that seems to pop up all over the Scriptures? Do we find anything analogous in other literature?

The possibility that makes the most sense to me, at this precise moment, is that they didn’t think of themselves as authors but as scribes (e.g., Matthew didn’t think of himself as writing a new gospel based on Mark, but that he considered himself more a scribe–he was copying Mark, but “improving” the text as he went: “I’m making a copy of the Gospel of Mark, but I’m fixing the terrible Greek as I go, and also I have some other important material that Mark strangely omitted that I’m working in as I go, and while I’m at it, I am fixing his inadequate theology and making some structural changes to the work by moving things around).

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FocusMyView

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January 14, 2024 - 2:00 am

It is hard to say what they were thinking. One option is they were offering a rebuttal. Another option is they were hoping their edition was a replacement. Perhaps they there were Mattists, Lukists, Johnists and Marxists in different areas, like the greek schools of philosophy.

As far as the slavish copying technique mixed with changes, I do not not of other cultures doing this. However, I do think the gospels were an extension of Old Testament habits. In my assessment of the OT sources of Mark besides the obvious EEN I note Joshua, Jeremiah, Zechariah, and 2 Samuel. Brodie’s assessment of Luke Acts includes Judges 1-5, which at points slavishly imitates Joshua, Chronicles, which slavishly imitates the Dtr history, and Ezra and Nehemiah, which seem to be based largely on the story of Zerubbabel and Jeshua found in Haggai. So his Luke Acts not only slavishly copies Mark, but itself is an amalgamation of sources that slavishly copied the sources of Mark!

I do remember hearing about empty spaces left intentionally in texts, presumably because they knew they were missing something in their source but could not figure out what was missing. Also in Brenton’s LXX, his source text has a weird chapter in Samuel or Kings where a chapter is spiced by a long rambling misplaced IDKwhat. Brenton just translates it like he found it.

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FocusMyView

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January 14, 2024 - 2:06 am

What I find weird is the attempts to justify some of these rough edges. In Zechariah 4, for example, Zechariah asks the angel what he is looking at. The angel is about to answer when suddenly the subject changes to Zerubbabel for a few verses. Zerubbabel is mentioned 4 times, the only 4 times in the book of Zechariah, and each mention seems to tie Zerubbabel to various prophecies or visions already made in the book of Zechariah. I read a commentary where it was justified as a chiasm because the question preceded it and the answer followed it. Of course in this justification Zerubbabel is the center of the chiasm and thus the most important thing since sliced bread.

Its the worst comb-over ever, really.

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Stephen
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January 14, 2024 - 6:16 pm

Examples of “bad” edits/redaction might be transmission issues. What we have is what survived in whatever condition it survived. One can imagine a scribe with two or more damaged texts putting them together as best they could. This could explain John especially.

But look at what we actually have. The possibility that Mark’s original ending was simply lost altogether. The likelihood of multiple versions of Luke. A messy Corinthian correspondence. We’re lucky to have what we do.

The dependence of Matthew & Luke on Mark is unique in ancient literature as far as I can tell. My first question to Robyn Faith Walsh. Matthew has his own material. We know from Acts that Luke didnt have to depend completely on Mark. They clearly privileged Mark’s text. Isn’t the simplest explanation a continuity of belief?

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FocusMyView

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January 15, 2024 - 7:39 pm

One simple explanation for me is that both Matthew and Luke recognize where Mark is getting his Jesus, and they mine those sources to expand their stories of Jesus. For example, both Matthew and Luke latch onto the Son of David (Absalom’s) advisor’s deaths for their tales of how Judas dies. They both choose a different advisor. Amasa died as Joab leaned in to give him a kiss, instead gutting Amasa, who was later removed from the pathway to finish dying in a field. Matthew has Judas hang himself, just as Ahithophel did once he realized his advice was not followed.
So I just explained Matthean source and Lukan source materials as expansions by Matthew and Luke on Markan LITERARY sources for Jesus, rather than any historical person or persons.

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Porphyry

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January 16, 2024 - 7:23 pm

Examples of “bad” edits/redaction might be transmission issues. What we have is what survived in whatever condition it survived. One can imagine a scribe with two or more damaged texts putting them together as best they could. This could explain John especially.

So what you are suggesting is that the seams in John are due to a scribe trying to put the fragments of a work back together without realizing his fragments actually came from two different works (or at least, from two very different versions of the same work)? It’s an interesting proposal, and I wonder how far you would take it; would you consider the same could explain Genesis?

The synoptics do seem to be a class apart. We aren’t just dealing with piecing different bits together, but systematically revising the material from various sources.

They clearly privileged Mark’s text. Isn’t the simplest explanation a continuity of belief?

Could you elaborate? My first thought is that they seem to be deliberately changing his theology even as they copy from him. Certainly they seem to share some genuine, core Christian conviction (I’d also raise that against RFW, in fact I think I did in our discussion), but they certainly don’t seem to share a theology.

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Stephen
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January 17, 2024 - 1:45 pm

Well the editor could well be aware that he has two imperfect copies of the same text. Whoever “edited” the Corinthian correspondence obviously knew there was a relationship between the textual fragments.

The case in Genesis is even more clear I think. We have two differing creation accounts side by side without any attempt to reconcile them. The Documentary Hypothesis itself is based on the perception that multiple sources were combined. In the Books of Samuel we have combined an anti-Monarchical source (kingship is bad) and a pro-monarchical source (kingship is good). (We have for example two stories about how Saul met David, one pro-Saul, the other anti-Saul, side by side.) There is no need to imagine deception or confusion. Somebody valued the texts and copied them the best they could.

They clearly privileged Mark’s text. Isn’t the simplest explanation a continuity of belief?

Could you elaborate? My first thought is that they seem to be deliberately changing his theology even as they copy from him. Certainly they seem to share some genuine, core Christian conviction (I’d also raise that against RFW, in fact I think I did in our discussion), but they certainly don’t seem to share a theology.

Let me do this over in the Walsh thread which I have definitely not concluded. I’m just slow.

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Robert
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January 19, 2024 - 6:51 pm
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