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Faith and Reason
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Judith

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August 15, 2019 - 4:37 pm

godspell said
I know he’s going to be in my neck of the woods, but I have a lot of other interests, and somehow I just don’t feel the need to try for a spot at the dinner.  I’m sure they’re all filled, anyway.   

No, not yet as he will let us know. You might find it intriguing how this man of the world can so easily meld together a diverse group of individuals for an hour or two of fun, interesting conversation. It would be well worth the effort to be there, I think.

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godspell

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August 17, 2019 - 6:52 am

Stephen, you speak of the ‘leap of faith’–now the great majority of humans have believed in God or gods for probably at least a hundred thousand years, long before civilization and all civilizations began with religion.  

Really, that’s the great dividing line between us and the other animals, which for me is not proof we’re better than our fellow creatures, but seems like a complex enough brain isn’t going to be content with mere reality, and is going to imagine what lies behind reality, beyond the mortal lifespan, and how this all came to be, and how it might all end up.  And were that not the case, if we didn’t imagine what might be, no science, no art.  Religion came before all that.  There was reiigion before there was science and art, and science and art exist because of religion.  Not in spite of it.  Religion can take many forms, but the one thing that stays consistent is that when one religion fails, we make another.  And then another.  Because we can’t help ourselves.  

My point is, why is only the decision to believe in God a leap.  You’re saying atheism is the default position?  Shouldn’t the default position be more prevalent?  Why do you need to keep pushing for something that’s natural?  Why do you want everyone in the world to make that leap with you?

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godspell

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August 17, 2019 - 6:53 am

Judith said

No, not yet as he will let us know. You might find it intriguing how this man of the world can so easily meld together a diverse group of individuals for an hour or two of fun, interesting conversation. It would be well worth the effort to be there, I think.  

He just posted that it’s full.  Obviously he’s got many readers here, so odds are good I wouldn’t have gotten a spot if I’d applied the moment he posted about the dinner.

Maybe someday.  But again–I have other fish to fry.  This is a very small part of my life.  No matter what Stephen thinks. 😉

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Stephen
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August 17, 2019 - 11:10 am

Stephen, you speak of the ‘leap of faith’–now the great majority of humans have believed in God or gods for probably at least a hundred thousand years, long before civilization and all civilizations began with religion.  

Really, that’s the great dividing line between us and the other animals, which for me is not proof we’re better than our fellow creatures, but seems like a complex enough brain isn’t going to be content with mere reality, and is going to imagine what lies behind reality, beyond the mortal lifespan, and how this all came to be, and how it might all end up.  And were that not the case, if we didn’t imagine what might be, no science, no art.  Religion came before all that.  There was reiigion before there was science and art, and science and art exist because of religion.  Not in spite of it.  Religion can take many forms, but the one thing that stays consistent is that when one religion fails, we make another.  And then another.  Because we can’t help ourselves.  

My point is, why is only the decision to believe in God a leap.  You’re saying atheism is the default position?  Shouldn’t the default position be more prevalent?  Why do you need to keep pushing for something that’s natural?  Why do you want everyone in the world to make that leap with you?

I don’t recall a reference on my part to a “leap of faith” but it’s possible.  I would appreciate you pointing me to it so I can note the context.  It is one of the characteristics of humans that we seek to understand the pre-conditions of our own existence and attempt to yoke our own lives and the life of our culture back to the origin of all things.  Over the millennia we did this with the tools that we had available to us.  But just as individuals grow and mature so do cultures.  There is a vast chasm between a child splashing paints on a sheet of paper and the work of Leonardo da Vinci but the impetus behind both is pretty much the same.   

Now we have created better tools.  It’s time to grow up.

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

The traditional idea of a “leap of faith” just seems puerile.  I am a philosophical skeptic and this position is based on certain principles.

You should not believe something without good reasons to do so.

All conclusions are provisional.  You should always be ready to modify or change your point of view depending on new evidence.

Valid ways of thinking contain within them an internal critique.  You should be able to define the conditions that would contradict your point of view. (How will you know if you’re wrong?) 

If all this sounds like a scientific approach that’s not a coincidence.

My atheism is an opinion based on my observations and experience.  But I’m not committed to it no matter what.  If someone can provide some compelling reason to change my mind I will gladly consider it.  There’s no faith in that. 

 

ps You have no idea what I think except as I reveal it in my posts. Now I have done so.  See all the time that could have been saved if you had just asked me before instead of assuming you already knew what I was thinking?

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godspell

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August 17, 2019 - 2:24 pm

Stephen, your beliefs have nothing to do with observations and experience.  Your opinions, maybe.  But beliefs come from somewhere else.  Yours come from anger.  Foolish to deny it.  But you will anyway.  As to the leap of faith, I did read it here, but maybe it wasn’t you.  After a while, you guys all sound the same, just like religious fundamentalists.  Who you resemble a lot more than you want to.  

We have no ‘better tools’ to know the whys and wherefores of existence–we will never have all the answers, and I do mean NEVER.  Science gives us facts, nothing more–facts that have to be interpreted, and interpretations are not facts themselves.  Philosophy is just as unreal as religion, and geared heavily towards the intelligentsia, meaning that for most people it’s irrelevant.  And wil remain so.  I always do note the strong elitist tone of atheism–even though many atheists are not in a position to look down on anyone.  They do anyway.  Not all, but many.  

Yes, I have no way of knowing you except through words on a screen, which is the only way you know me.  Is there a point in here somewhere?  I keep waiting…..

 

🙂

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godspell

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August 17, 2019 - 6:19 pm

I have several times referred to Richard Dawkins saying that child sexual abuse isn’t a big deal, and he doesn’t know why people who have been abused as children make such a stink about it.  

You never respond to that. How come?  He’s probably the most prominent living advocate for atheism.  So much so that South Park really laced into him in an episode, figuring that somebody who likes being famous that much is ripe for satire.  

And religion has certainly taken one hell of a beating over this subject, notably Catholicism.  If any churchman said what he said, he’d be ripped into tiny little pieces, possibly by his parishioners.  Aren’t we supposed to judge everyone by the same standards, no exceptions?  

You did defend Sam Harris over his theoretical comments regarding what we might have to do to a Muslim nation that got nuclear weapons.  “You didn’t understand what he was saying.”  I think the problem is that most atheists don’t want to understand what he was saying, but don’t want to just denounce him for what they would eagerly denounce some fundamentalist preacher.  He’s on the team, and you have to support the team.

Daniel Dennett has repeatedly questioned whether animals like dogs and cats have consciousness (maybe other primates, but he’s not sure), an idea he has adapted from Descartes (who was trying to justify a new idea in Catholicism that they didn’t have souls), that no qualified animal behaviorist agrees with.  Do you?

The late Christopher Hitchens wrote that women aren’t capable of being funny, and that men evolved that ability to attract mates (so I guess they’re the transmitters of comedy and women are the receivers?)  He also defended his support for the Iraq War to his dying day, appeared on Fox News to say it was necessary and right, and we are still paying the price for that mistake, which I agree would have happened without him, but that’s rather beside the point.  We don’t excuse Quislings because Hitler would have happened without them.    

These are the four most famous atheists of our time–at least in the sense that they advocate for atheism, and against religion.  Most unbelievers, like most believers, don’t spend most of their time worrying about what other people believe or disbelieve, but they do.  They want everybody to be an atheist.  As Bertrand Russell once did and I have to tell you, I think he was a sad excuse for a human being, in spite of his intellect.  Yes, he went to prison for his beliefs.  And if his cell had been an Airbnb, it would have gotten very high ratings.  He advocated for preventive nuclear war (shades of Harris), but before that said that maybe the British should just invite Hitler to come have tea instead of fighting him.  He also spent a lot of time screwing other men’s wives.  If he’d been a religious man, we’d call him a fanatic about his beliefs, then a hypocrite for his personal life.  But many atheists regard him as a sort of secular saint.  Because he’s a prominent intellectual who tells them they’re right.  (You shouldn’t need that kind of affirmation for your personal convictions, but people like to have it anyway).  

Now for once will you please just define your own views regarding these very prominent spokespersons for what I cannot help but view as your equivalent of a religion?  If you choose to define it differently, I respect that, but I’m telling you right now that I have no problem attacking Popes when they say things I find repugnant, and neither did my father, who was a very devout Catholic all his life.  You don’t have a Pope, but you still seem to feel like it would be crossing a line to attack these atheist pontiffs without portfolio.   

My take would be that you feel like it’s good somebody is out there actively pushing for atheism, and if they have a few odd little quirks, well maybe that just comes with the territory.

Tell me why I’m wrong.

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dnorris37

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August 18, 2019 - 9:34 am

Deconstructing rationally and with sound information a lousy and cheating article by Dinesh D’Souza

 [D’Souza] “We have always had atheists among us,” the philosopher Edmund Burke wrote in his “Reflections on the Revolution in France,” “but now they have grown turbulent and seditious.” It seems that in our own day some prominent atheists are agitating for greater political and social influence. In this connection, leading atheist thinkers have been writing articles declaring that they should no longer be called “atheists.” Rather, they want to be called “brights.”

[Fernando]  Just read Edmund Burke’s quote to realize that what comes next is a pamphlet against all who do not think or think like the hyper-conservative and anti-liberal Christian apologist Dinesh D’Souza.
Edmund Burke was an ultra-conservative (although he began considering himself an old wig), very religious, who became one of the main authors of the so-called Counter-Enlightenment whose obsession was to attack the French Revolution, especially after the “Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen. ” This earned him the disqualification and rejection of the theorists of the democratic revolution (such as Thomas Payne), whom they accused of being anti-democratic.

It is strange that, knowing the story, D’Souza did not realize that he who says of the atheists of the French Revolution who had become turbulent and seditious, was quite aggressive and hard on his political enemies and was a Presbyterian radical

[D’Souza] Yes, “brights,” as in “I am a bright.” In a recent article in the New York Times, philosopher Daniel Dennett defined a bright as “a person with a naturalist as opposed to a supernaturalist world view.” Mr. Dennett added that “we brights don’t believe in ghosts or elves or the Easter bunny or God.” His implication was clear: Brights are the smart people who don’t fall for silly superstitions.

[Fernando] The idea of changing the name of atheists to Brights is inspired by the success of the tremendous improvement in the public image of homosexuals by adopting the name of gays. Keep in mind that in the US the social group considered the worst and most despised is that of atheists. There is abundant documentation on this majority opinion in American society.

The idea of changing the name of atheists to Brights is inspired by the success of the tremendous improvement in the public image of homosexuals by adopting the name of gays. Keep in mind that in the US the social group considered the worst and most despised is that of atheists. There is abundant documentation on this majority opinion in American society.
The author then jumps into a vacuum and ensures that Brights are “the” smart people who don’t fall for silly superstitions. But it is cheater. Dennett never says that the Brights (=atheists) are the only ones who do not believe in the list that gives silly superstitions, including among those superstitions the unfounded belief in the supernatural, which should have bothered a staunch believer in the supernatural much like D ‘Souza.

Anyway, it was unsuccessful because it is a somewhat simplistic and not very bright idea.

[D’Souza] Mr. Dennett, like many atheists, is confident that atheists are simply brighter–more rational–than religious believers. Their assumption is: We nonbelievers employ critical reason while the theists rely on blind faith. But Mr. Dennett and his fellow “brights,” for all their credentials and learning, have been duped by a fallacy. This may be called the Fallacy of the Enlightenment, and it was first pointed out by the philosopher Immanuel Kant.

The Fallacy of the Enlightenment is the glib assumption that there is only one limit to what human beings can know, and that limit is reality itself.

[Fernando] There are a few errors in this paragraph.
First, the Fallacy of the Enlightenment is an invention of Mr. D’Souza. No one, except him, has written about this fallacy, since no one else has found it in the texts of the theoreticians of the Enlightenment.
But also, if it is postulated that the fallacy is the “assumption that there is only one limit to what human beings can know, and that limit is reality itself”, it is a nonsense of an ignorant, because it is an empirically established truth that you can only talk about knowledge within the reality. Of course, Mr. D’Souza should have known that the only valid definition of “knowledge” is:  every assumption, every hypothesis, every opinion, every belief that is true because it corresponds to reality. Reality is the Supreme Court that dictates the truth or not the truth of the assumptions and hypotheses, and therefore, the one that defines what is knowledge and what is fantasy, unprovable speculation and beliefs, such as religious faith.

 

[D’Souza] In this view, widely held by atheists, agnostics and other self-styled rationalists, human beings can continually find out more and more until eventually there is nothing more to discover. The Enlightenment Fallacy holds that human reason and science can, in principle, unmask the whole of reality.

 

[Fernando] This is the typical “straw man” fallacy.
In fact, he states without proof that atheists, agnostics and rationalists claim that “human beings can continually find out more and more until eventually there is nothing more to discover. The Enlightenment Fallacy holds that human reason and science can, in principle, unmask the whole of reality. ” Note that in this other paragraph, the author defines the fallacy of the Enlightenment differently as in a previous paragraph.
In addition, and especially today, no one with a certain scientific background, whether atheist, agnostic or not, argues that the methodological naturalism of science can make us aware of the totality of reality. Today we know that this is impossible because we know the scientific and mathematical limitations that do not allow us to have a full knowledge of reality.

 The achievements of 20th century mathematics, each in its own way, did far more to destroy the naive assumption that reason could “unmask the whole of reality” than any of the intricate arguments fashioned by Kant. Just a few examples:

  • ­­Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorem, which demonstrated the incompleteness of nontrivial axiomatic systems.
  • Quantum mechanics, which includes in its most basic principles certain stochastic characteristics, of which we can only know the probabilities of their occurrence.
  • Computability theory, whith the P versus NP problem, which can lead to certain algorithms that cannot be solved, either calculate or verify, in times that are not so enormous (that grow exponentially) that make it impossible to solve those calculations necessary to know certain questions of reality.
  • Game theory, which demonstrated numerous paradoxes of rationality.
  • Chaos theory, which show how highly nonlinear differential equations depend greatly on the initial conditions, so that if these conditions are not known with almost infinite precision, the calculations quickly deviate greatly from the results needed to know the phenomena of reality.

 

[D’Souza] In his “Critique of Pure Reason,” Kant showed that this premise is false. In fact, he argued, there is a much greater limit to what human beings can know. The only way that we apprehend reality is through our five senses. But why should we believe, Kant asked, that our five-mode instrument for apprehending reality is sufficient for capturing all of reality? What makes us think that there is no reality that goes beyond, one that simply cannot be apprehended by our five senses?

[Fernando] What D’Souza says demonstrates a huge ignorance of Kant, which is not terribly important, since his theory of knowledge has long been a ruined building in which only post-modern relativists live.
Kant did try to refute this idea described by D’Souza, more or less, but he was neither the first nor the best and certainly not the most persuasive. I have read Kant in both English and German, and I have personally never been persuaded by his brand of logic; on the contrary, I find Kant’s mode of thought to be abhorant in the extreme. I agree that there are limits to rationality, but I would be approximately the last person to suggest that Kant’s reasoning is any guide at all in this matter.

Kant did try to refute this idea described by D’Souza, more or less, but he was neither the first nor the best and certainly not the most persuasive. I have read Kant in both English and German, and I have personally never been persuaded by his brand of logic; on the contrary, I find Kant’s mode of thought to be abhorant in the extreme. I agree that there are limits to rationality, but I would be approximately the last person to suggest that Kant’s reasoning is any guide at all in this matter.

 [D’Souza] Kant persuasively noted that there is no reason whatsoever for us to believe that we can know everything that exists. Indeed what we do know, Kant said, we know only through the refracted filter of our experience. Kant argued that we cannot even be sure that our experience of a thing is the same as the thing-in-itself. After all, we see in pretty much the same way that a camera does, and yet who would argue that a picture of a boat is the same thing as a boat?

Kant isn’t arguing against the validity of perception or science or reason. He is simply showing their significant limits. These limits cannot be erased by the passage of time or by further investigation and experimentation. Rather, the limits on reason are intrinsic to the kind of beings that humans are, and to the kind of apparatus that we possess for perceiving reality. The implication of Kant’s argument is that reality as a whole is, in principle, inaccessible to human beings. Put another way, there is a great deal that human beings simply will never know.

Notice that Kant’s argument is entirely secular: It does not employ any religious vocabulary, nor does it rely on any kind of faith. But in showing the limits of reason, Kant’s philosophy “opens the door to faith,” as the philosopher himself noted.

[Fernando] Today we know that what Kant understood by the five senses as the only means to know reality, and in general, all his cognitive theory, something that he postulated to combat the empiricism he almost viscerally rejected, is an obsolete idea. Thanks to rationality and science we have many and better means than the five senses that evolution gave us to know the nature of Nature and the reality that is cognizable. There are limits to what we can know, true, but those limits are not fixed and the field in which science is competent to know reality, is widening more and more, without we can guess what those limits are.
If what Kant had written about knowledge and the five biological senses had been true, that knowledge would have stagnated in the late 18th century and our world would be completely different from what it is.

Kant was a thinker of his time and place. His Weltanschauung was characteristic of transcendetal idealism. He believed in an absolute and essentialist ontology (Noumena, das Ding an sich, objects as they are in themselves). Today no analytical philosopher or scientist defends this belief. Kant was wrong to want to start from the ontology to reach epistemology, when it must be the opposite: epistemology defines the ontology, which is relative (W. V. O. Quine).
The way in which D’Souza uses Kant’s philosophy here is a superb example of the Ad Verecundiam fallacy.

[D’Souza] If Mr. Dennett and the rest of the so-called brights have produced refutations of Kant that have eluded the philosophical community, they should share them with the rest of us. But until then, they should refrain from the ignorant boast that atheism operates on a higher intellectual plane than theism. Rather, as Kant showed, reason must know its limits in order to be truly reasonable. The atheist foolishly presumes that reason is in principle capable of figuring out all that there is, while the theist at least knows that there is a reality greater than, and beyond, that which our senses and our minds can ever apprehend.

[Fernando] In summary: D’Souza, as a good conservative and fundamentalist evangelical, wants to discredit atheism using Daniel Dennett as a “straw man” (typical fallacy of logic textbook).
It also aims to make its readers believe that reality is more than can be perceived and known, and that therefore the philosophical (ontological) naturalism of scientific rationalism is false, since it does not accept the supernatural realm, which forms, according to theists, an essential part of reality.
He also tries to discredit the methodological naturalism, fundamental pillar of science, giving place, without mentioning it, of course, to the arguments that include “God in the gaps”.

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Stephen
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August 18, 2019 - 10:23 am

godspell, I’m simply not going to respond to these kind of posts where you tell me what I really think and what I really feel.  You just make yourself look foolish.  Apparently you don’t mind but it does waste my time. No amount of clumsy attempts at baiting me into an argument is going to work.

 

Silence is so accurate. 

– Mark Rothko

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godspell

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August 18, 2019 - 1:28 pm

I said you were free to tell me why I was wrong–you just don’t want to have to explain the bizarre statements and actions of the only advocates for atheism most people have ever heard of (I mean, other than Madalyn Murray O’Hair, the only prominent female atheist spokesperson in all history).  You don’t want to say anything remotely critical of them, and neither do you want to endorse their creepy viewpoints.  

And all that means is that you’ve basically told me I was 100% right.  I don’t know exactly what you think, no.  I would assume you do have some problems with what they said and did.  But I know why you won’t say what you think.  Because this is your religion, and it’s a minority religion, so you don’t feel right criticizing them in public–all the more to an nonbeliever–well, maybe an nonnonbeliever?  Terminology problems.  🙂

You have effectively conceded the argument.  End of thread, far as I’m concerned.  See ya in the funny papers.  😀

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LaoWho

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September 1, 2020 - 11:36 am

Stephen said
Agreed.  So let me be explicit in my biases.  I am an unbeliever, or more accurately, an ex-believer, having been raised in the church, and having left it in my thirties.  I am open to the idea that there might be some fundamental organizing principle at work in the universe, but it would seem to be impersonal, not caring for the fate of individual persons.  As a consequence I have always been fascinated by eastern views of “ultimate reality” but of course it still needs to be demonstrated that there is some compelling reason to think any of this might be true.  

At this point I just don’t see any reason to think such a thing that can be described as a god exists. 

Sure, science has limitations but the utility of science is that it incorporates its limitations into its methodology.  Science doesn’t prove anything.  It falsifies.  Science eliminates all the bad explanations and builds models based on what’s left  Science doesn’t deal with “Truth” or claim to be final.  It gives us an image of what we think is going on at the present moment, always subject to disconfirmation or revision as we increase our knowledge through observation and experiment.

Admittedly many of its defenders treat science as an unimpeachable authority and scientists as a secular priesthood mediating access to the mysteries of nature.  A religion substitute!  But a profound misunderstanding.  The first concept that scientific method ditches is certainty.

The question to be asked about faith is…, faith in what?    If you affirm faith as a valid way of knowing then what cannot be believed on faith?  How do you ever know you’re wrong?  

 

Stephen, I’m at this thread b/c I’m chasing Judith’s reference to a poem she liked and chanced upon your post here. Rather than you and I beginning w/ Witt, let’s start here. The fallacy you commit–that we’re all guilty of–is not dissimilar to my objection to the Bultmann book I only opened yesterday but wh/ made me put it away immediately. I just can’t have any biases starting out here where I can help it. So let me presume to illustrate, from him and then you.

Bultmann, Jesus and the Word, Introduction: Viewpoint and Method

“In strict accuracy, I should not write “viewpoint”; for a fundamental presupposition of this book
is that the essence of history cannot be grasped by “viewing” it, as we view our natural
environment in order to orient ourselves in it. Our relationship to history is wholly different
from our relationship to nature. Man, if he rightly understands himself, differentiates himself
from nature. When he observes nature, he perceives there something objective which is not
himself. When he turns his attention to history, however, he must admit himself to be a part of
history; he is considering a living complex of events in which he is essentially involved. (Emphasis mine)

And you

I am open to the idea that there might be some fundamental organizing principle at work in the universe, but it would seem to be impersonal, not caring for the fate of individual persons.

And yet, in the words of Henry V, “I will, I do.” Yes, banish poor Jack and banish the world, even the fact that we nevertheless do behave personally, do care for the fate of individual persons, and do really still believe somehow that, either by some miracle or delusion we insist on separating ourselves from nature. I could even cite Jesus, “Foxes have dens, birds nests, but the son of man has nowhere to lay his head.” But pray tell me, honestly, how that could in any sense be considered scientific? It’s too absurd for any scientific method we could put it under.

Indeed, what academia would we even presently have w/o these Scylla and Charibdis, these antipodes of the mind. How many times are we learning lately that the questions we laymen ask aren’t even wrong (Pauli) because the meaning of our propositions and questions don’t translate there, in science. And to further delimit science to a strictly falsifiable endeavor is even beyond the pale for Popper, not that even he should be taken as holy writ except by only the laziest scientist who has come to such an impossible conclusion because he has simply gotten tired of thinking, like the imperative to “Just shut up and measure” amongst those physicists who want no trouble from the John Bell group.

Answer me this, and I’ll go back into Witt for you. That’s how certain I am that the proposition is an indefensible one. By what evidence can we separate ourselves from nature? I’ll even go one step further, and ask as I have many a biologist, “What evolutionary advantage was there to creating gods?” I ask out of academic curiosity and not in any way to arouse another apologetic. And whatever advantage there was/is, by whatever mutation, it’s pointless to try to argue that the universe isn’t doing it. And even though we’ve been led down this path to a place where our very questions are insufficient, outdated, deluded, to here we nevertheless have been brought.

Pray, let’s be truly rigorous. I’m suffering the apoplexy of Witt here. Can you feel it? Maybe we’d be better off beginning from Pope’s Essay on Man. Ugh. I need another cup of coffee.

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LaoWho

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September 1, 2020 - 1:06 pm

Okay I’m feeling a little better. Look here, Julian Jaynes at least put forth a hypothesis, and it’s even falsifiable if you like, in his Origins of Consciousness and the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind. It’s far from accepted but goes something like this. The corpus callosum grew/evolved to fully separate the hemispheres of the brain. He uses examples from Virgil, for example, to try to show that even the cones of the eye were still evolving b/c they couldn’t properly describe the Mediterranean’s color. But here’s what the applicable bit might be, that in the non-bicameral mind, thoughts were hallucinatory audibilizations…the people then were actually being spoken to, from within their own minds by their own brains. Now that I can really get with, even though neurologists dismiss it. But at least it’s a hypothesis, and if we’re hearing voices that must have seemed disembodied, then why not gods speaking them?

It could certainly also delude them into thinking egotistically and abstractly, and these accretions could have led to the development of duality, especially vis a vis the senses in such a mind, ultimately culminating in our favorite forms of neoplatonism that persist to today. Great so far, and Chopra gets to make himself rich by the old revivalist tricks of staging false debates, good so long as he gives away his children’s old shoes. But this is the sort of thing we ought to be after, and not succumbing to false choices or, worst still, continuing to ignore where our very frames of thought are not translatable to what we think we can know better vis a vis science, like continuing to insist an answer to what happened before the big bang.

I can still accept Eddington’s “Something somewhere is doing we don’t know what,” but only as an old sentimental holdover from the Romantics and his own faith, precisely b/c it is historical and in that sense real. It doesn’t change the fact that it’s star debris that’s doing it. People who try to find any substrate to the cosmos, or ground of being, or TOE, etc., whether through the reifications of consciousness, evolution (the more likely a universe is to produce black holes, the more successful it is), or even disequillebrium theory and entropy (which seem to be the most sweeping and inclusive cross-discipline explanation for the arising of organic life from inorganic matter), are still deluded in a sense. I just did it. The habit, the “albeit a very persistent illusion” of Einstein, is almost impossible to dispense with, else e-prime would have found some footing. But Eric Smith will say that “life” doesn’t translate, any more than organic and inorganic do, because these static reifications, these nouns and entities, are misleadingly false to “living systems” of solar systems like our own. It’s still there, but it’s way more true on any proper cosmological scale or continuing processes.

We’re stuck with our paradoxes (I can’t even speak here without them), unless we’re willing to try to go past them by whatever means, but this first fallacy–objective vs. subjective, man vs. nature, etc–has to go before we even begin to try to transcend our own limitations as put upon us naturally or by some cosmic joke or absurdity. Alfred North Whitehead did it, abandoning entities for processes, and we have to amend our language and thought to comport with better ways of knowing. Or, in the alternative, we can elevate our reifications, like Dirac did with beauty only to discover that his equation was smarter than he was (predicting anti-matter). BUT, in neither case is the universe somehow removed from us or we from it. It’d be truer to say that the universe loves its mother than to try to pretend that it isn’t making mothers. The otherwise perfect vacuum (or our pristine tabula rasa, remember that?) met quantum perturbations 13.8b years ago, and it wasn’t happy at being roused from its slumber. Maybe that’s why we talk the way we do. In fact, I could probably argue (and tried to at Loyola) that Plato wasn’t advocating forms, he was deconstructing our mistakes in formulating them (they’re everywhere–and how can anyone miss his contempt?), to please Socrates whilst by brilliant military maneuver simultaneously, gleefully taking the rich kids’ money by feeding them the hierarchies they would’ve loved to hear and needed to rule. I need Robert to rescue me.

Nor mouth had, no nor mind, expressed
What heart heard of, ghost guessed:
It ís the blight man was born for,
It is Margaret you mourn for.
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Steefen
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September 1, 2020 - 1:54 pm

RickR said
I think that our human limitations–perceiving things only through our five senses

Humans do not have only five senses.

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LaoWho

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September 1, 2020 - 2:12 pm

You might like Rupert Sheldrake Steefen, if you haven’t already. I’m trying to finish the Torleif Elgvin paper that Robert provided, and very glad that I collected his works for my reading.

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Steefen
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September 1, 2020 - 2:43 pm

LaoWho said
You might like Rupert Sheldrake Steefen, if you haven’t already. I’m trying to finish the Torleif Elgvin paper that Robert provided, and very glad that I collected his works for my reading.  

Looking this author up in amazon, I see

Morphic Resonance

I also see

Science and Spiritual Practices

I also see

Science Set Free

 

Which of the three were important to you?

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Robert
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September 1, 2020 - 2:57 pm
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LaoWho

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September 1, 2020 - 3:11 pm

Steefen said

Looking this author up in amazon, I see

Morphic Resonance

I also see

Science and Spiritual Practices

I also see

Science Set Free

 

Which of the three were important to you?  

 

Dogs That Know When Their Owner’s Are Coming Home. Otherwise it’s Morphic Resonance that would address these extra-sensory capacities. I have it here if you want it sent.

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LaoWho

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September 1, 2020 - 3:19 pm

Robert said

LaoWho said
… I need Robert to rescue me. …

Don’t look to me for rescue! I only understood a few points that seemed especially interesting to me. Love the idea of a Socratic Plato using universal forms to critique or deconstruct lesser formulations. No idea if it is historically true of Plato, but it pleases my apophatic bent. Taking that impulse further, I would say that we simply cannot transcend our limitations. We are lucky if we can be aware of them enough to inspire some kind of hope for something greater. The paradoxes and coincidentia oppositorum are perhaps our best guide toward this.  

Or maybe Mulcaster’s statement, “the likeness of unlike things,” a concession/qualifier from the outset of any discourse. Call it the 1st paradox. Honestly, I’m thinking either haiku or pure mathematics to displace language as we know it. I’ve been at war with words about 10 years now and shoulda been a Trappist, or stayed at the Zen monastery. Best would have been to just have stayed at the Indian reservations I lived at for $1 a day in Costa Rica and Michuacan, MX. No electric, cell phones…I was on my way to Peru to learn medicine (ayahuasca) when I met my wife. How do a coupla good midwesterners like us end up in NJ? Nobody moves to NJ.

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LaoWho

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September 1, 2020 - 3:24 pm

Steefen said

Looking this author up in amazon, I see

Morphic Resonance

I also see

Science and Spiritual Practices

I also see

Science Set Free

 

Which of the three were important to you?  

Oh, and Steefen, he’s on YouTube plenty discussing everything you brought up for a choice. Have a listen and see what you like. He’s a bona fide biologist if that helps. It does help me to give him a hearing. But yeah, his morphic resonance is derivative of I don’t remember who, but it had its precedent before him in biology. If I can send it to you just lemme know, okay? I owe you one.

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LaoWho

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September 1, 2020 - 4:44 pm

Here ya go. But I’m surprised that he’s addressed the possibility of baptism (or even that Egyptian initiation by water “torture” that I heard about once from a defrocked priest–yeah, for that–who took up residence with Ramtha) as being a form of induced near death experience. I’ll have to listen. Here’s his YouTube channel

** you do not have permission to see this link **

 

a bit about the dog experiment he conducted

 

baptism for near death experiences

 

morphic resonance (nature by habit rather than law–I’ll have to see what parallels there are to iterative solutions like the Mandelbrot set, or to the algorithms of chaos theory)

 

science and spiritual practices

 

You can see he tries to engage with everyone, f/ Dennett and Harris to McKenna and Lipton. Fortunately he’s managed to stay independent and not abducted by the various Woo enterprises that want your money. That, or the Maharishi Mahesh just found Chopra an easier target/better evangelist for making moola. And he’s not dualistic, so that’s something. Philosophically I’d call his processes “co-inherence,” like the schema of Charles Williams whose audacity even angered his fellow Inklings. They liked to say he was “eminently burnable.” He has a bit on panpsychism so I can see whether I guess correctly or am missing his mark.

But I will say this–I’ve never seen so many spell-check errors prompted in such a small space as I’ve just typed. LOL Maybe he is onto something.

Here’s an hour-long talk he gives on morphic resonance, his field of study, that isn’t at his channel.

 

And panpsychism and other theories of consciousness, where possibility reigns, like John von Neumann’s quantum logic? AKA “maybe logic” according to Robert Anton Wilson?

 

And yes, I value genuine experience, would even call it inestimable. In fact, when Strassman did his DMT studies, he called David Deutsch to ask what would be necessary for cross-dimensional communication, b/c his subjects were all having the same encounters w/ entities. Drug-induced hallucinations just don’t do that. Deutsch answered, “A computer the size of the universe.” After his DMT The Spirit Molecule, his next book (I have a signed copy somewhere) considered various OT prophets and whether they were DMT-influenced, either endogenously or otherwise.

But I don’t say I believe the experiencers, because I don’t have to, if I simply don’t presume to have a basis upon wh/ to dismiss them. (And if I were to call myself a skeptic then I’d have to examine my own assumptions, too, and remove that bias for honest investigation.)

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LaoWho

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September 1, 2020 - 5:35 pm

Well, listening to the panpsychic bit, he obviously isn’t bothered by suffering. I’m gonna ask him to address that, or why justice is so unjust, maybe the entire basis for the OT. But as much as I respect Khayyam, even his “Justice is the soul of the universe” can hardly be justified. Although, even with ayahuasca (the tea–I’ll never smoke DMT) there’s a good bit of hell before the rebirth.

Neither can I understand the desire to live forever–has anyone really tried to imagine that? Or the consequences? Even the point of Buddhism is to escape such. I’ve come to concede that it may be there for those who want it, but that doesn’t mean that it’s there for those who don’t. And that would be a hell, no? An eternal insomnia? And how do you get off the ride when you’ve had enough, or opt out, without resorting to Newton’s school for souls life-between-lives, which puts the kibosh on Buddhism? One thing is certain; if immortality is inevitable, available, or even possible, it cannot be anything like what we understand  “life” to be, and therefore it can’t be anything to desire, much less seek. We wouldn’t even know how to want that, at least I don’t. Maybe I’m just not in touch with my subtle body. 

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