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God's Problem by Ehrman, Ch 8, Apocalypticism and God's Triump over Evil Defined by M. Scott Peck, author of People of the Lie
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Steefen
7792 Posts
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April 23, 2023 - 9:47 pm

People of the Lie: The Hope for Healing Human Evil
1980 ratings averaging 4.5 stars

God’s Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question–Why We Suffer
446 ratings averaging 4.5 stars

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Is the message of first century Christianity the way to heal human evil?

Doesn’t the Bible tell us why we suffer?

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MysticalCatholic

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June 2, 2023 - 6:19 pm

Since no discussion was triggered by the opening comments in April 23, I will just indulge myself. For the record, I will only be here a short time because I’ve self-ostracized myself as someone with a passing interest in Biblical issues (enough to buy all Bart’s books in physical and audible form) but don’t have the energy to plow through hundreds of written blog entries, especially since my eye sight (at 71) is dealing with deterioration. I have a cultural deep affiliation with Roman Catholicism and have many perhaps superstitious beliefs based on this early indoctrination. 12 years of Catholic education does a number on anyone. Either you become an atheist, a casual Catholic who goes to mass (but checks your phone messages during the homily when you get to sit for at least 10 minutes straight), or a fanatic. I became an atheist, but am now coming back to my roots in a scholarly detached manner.

So what? Well, when it comes to suffering, the Catholic response seems to be that either you deserve it for sin or it is a test from God. In Catholicism, suffering is a virtue and becomes quite the fetish (I do wonder how many S&M sex fetishists were raised Catholic, but I digress). And suffering is promoted as a way to take on the suffering of others, a form of human vicarious atonement for others. There is even the rather sick idea that by increasing our suffering purposely, we are helping other people get out of Purgatory, since suffering seems to be a spiritual currency that can be put to various uses. By our suffering, we show solidarity with Jesus on the cross. Over the centuries, this has led to much madness and self-mutilation and suffering to “please” Jesus.

I went searching as anyone with half a spiritual brain does. I ended up in metaphysical teachings, the New Age, mysticism and running from one temporary “sacred space” to another.

Now I am 71. For what it is worth, I tend to resonate (a lovely New Age word) with the views of the physicist and astral traveler Thomas Campbell, who wrote MY BIG TOE (Theory Of Everything). He claims, like so many Eastern philosophies, that we come here to increase God’s knowledge through us. In that sense, we are God’s avatars. God is not perfect (such a silly notion when you think about it) but growing and evolving also on its own spiritual journey. And ultimately, I found peace with the quite simple notion that suffering is just part of the game rules of this reality, if you consider it a very complex video game. The Catholics and many modern pop psychologists seem to claim that humans are by nature rather lazy creatures akin to cats curled up in a sunny window taking a nap. If we do not have to grow, we generally won’t. Hence, Paris Hilton! Therefore, challenges are necessary to force us to respond, hopefully causing growth.

We are not here to have a good time. We are not here to accumulate assets. We are sent here (in this paradigm) to grow for our own overall evolution and God’s education. Ah yes, another belief.

Part of this may involve multiple lives to learn different lessons. And there may be a planning session before each life where we actually hard code the challenges we feel will best help us evolve. From outside the context of a human life, there may be no explanation for becoming paralyzed by a motor cycle accident at 18 (I know such a person). But from a multi-life vantage point, this may be the necessary impetus for us to have a harsh life leading to exponential growth.

I know, I know. I am trading a traditional Christian view for a metaphysical-eastern-new age view. But it encompasses so much more than the relatively simple minded Christian view. In my 71 years, I have met literally hundreds of CHristians whining about suffering and demanding that God give them the perfect middle American prosperous sickness free sitcom family life! Yet what would be the point of this? We again are not here to have a good time! We are here to grow spiritually. I realize that this is another belief. Most Christians seem to think we are here to memorize the Bible and avoid suffering (and resultant growth) at all costs! Very few Christians seem to think their duty is to spiritually grow (after being born again). They settle for a set of rules. Look at the Christian apologists who debate with Bart. Are they spiritually advanced people living in a Christ-like manner? Or are they Bible thumpers who completely lose the spirit of the law in their obsession with hitting everyone over the head with their judgmental and often unethical promotion of Christianity, as if it is their favorite football team.

I realize this post will seem absurd from a Christian viewpoint, and I realize the context of the forum is an analysis of Christian dogma and Biblical interpretation. I confess that while I love going on such an intellectual journey with Bart, this is not where my heart is now. My heart is what might condescendingly be called “BEYOND” Christianity. Are my metaphysical beliefs true? Probably not, since that’s the way cookies usually crumble in this world. But they suffice for now.

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Stephen
4606 Posts
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June 2, 2023 - 9:46 pm

MysticalCatholic, welcome, and of course post as you like. I hope you will visit us from time to time. You seem like an interesting person.

When I was searching, I made some traditional stops on my way out the door. What repulsed me most about Roman Catholicism was its love affair with suffering and purity. You would expect a system of belief whose central image is of a man being tortured to death to exhibit flashes of sado-masochism but the attitude towards suffering, as something not to be assuaged but to be fetishized sent me packing. I have to say though that I think that RCism’s most wondrous and appalling accomplishment was to separate motherhood and sexuality.

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Robert
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June 3, 2023 - 10:12 am
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Porphyry

1853 Posts
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June 3, 2023 - 11:19 am

I found Stephen’s description to resonate while simultaneously being alien to my experience of Catholicism.

E.g., separating sex from motherhood–On the one hand, yes, the ideal mother is revered, in Catholicism, in part for being a perpetual virgin. Sed contra (as Robert suggests): Casti connubii and Humanae vitae.

Something similar applies to suffering–on the one hand the genius of Christianity is to offer an explanation of suffering that gives suffering meaning. And once you give suffering meaning, you may be tempted to do something that looks like fetishizing it: you start off explaining the obvious problem that the world is broken and end up making the brokenness a goal in its own right. But at the same time the idea of self-mortification isn’t a purely Christian one: Stoics, Marines, and Buddhists all have ethics that sometimes seek suffering deliberately.

There are a lot of tensions in Catholic thought that I had once judged subtleties; now I’m having to reassess to see which are plausible (if wrong) subtleties and which are just flat-out incoherence that Catholic intellectuals have learned to live with.

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