A remark was madevto me regarding whether or not the bible is “historical” and then someone posted this in support of it being “historical evidence” but didnt say in which regard.
“To refuse to use them as sources is to sacrifice the most important avenues to the past we have, and purely a ideological, not historical, grounds. So too the Gospels. Whatever one thinks of them as inspired Scripture, they can be seen and use as a significant historical sources.” – Bart D. Ehrman
How did Bart mean “historical” from his above quote???
dougly said
A remark was madevto me regarding whether or not the bible is “historical” and then someone posted this in support of it being “historical evidence” but didnt say in which regard.“To refuse to use them as sources is to sacrifice the most important avenues to the past we have, and purely a ideological, not historical, grounds. So too the Gospels. Whatever one thinks of them as inspired Scripture, they can be seen and use as a significant historical sources.” – Bart D. Ehrman
How did Bart mean “historical” from his above quote???
I think you’ve posted to the wrong topic. You should start a new topic in the appropriate forum for this question.
As I read on, I strongly recommend “Christian Beginnings” by Geza Vermes. I started reading this book right after I finished Dr. Ehrman’s “How Jesus became God” and I was afraid there will be a lot of repetition. On the contrary, the book covers the same era but from a completely different aspect.
The New Testament: An Introduction: Paul and Mark by Paul Nadim Tarazi is a fascinating book. Paul Tarazi is a retired professor of the Old Testament at St Vladimir’s Seminary but has written numerous books including multi-volume introductions to the Old and the New Testaments and commentaries for The Chrysostom Bible. St. Vladimir’s Seminary “aspires to be the premier center of Orthodox Christian scholarship.”
What makes the book fascinating is, despite the Seminary’s aspirations to Orthodoxy, Paul Tarazi believes that there was a major gulf between the Jerusalem apostles and Paul and that the Gospel of Mark was written in response to this. He is not a literalist in any sense and his studies have led him to believe the Gospel of Mark was not meant to be historical. Instead Tarazi believes that the story of Jesus’s life in Mark is modeled on Paul and his relationship with the Jerusalem apostles. This leads to times where what most scholars believe are stories of the oral tradition are instead being interpreted as symbolic of stories of Paul’s life which is possible because Tarazi believes Mark knew of Paul’s letters. His overall interpretation of Mark is that it is a call to the Jerusalem apostles to accept Paul’s teachings.
gmatthews said
rosekeister asked about getting a forum for listing our favorite books, but I’m impatient! I like to read and always have at least 5 or 6 books that I’m reading at the same time depending on where I’m at.
I’d like to have a list from others of:
1) Your two favorite all time books on any topic applicable to Prof. Ehrman’s forum. Topics like Biblical criticism (no need to restrict it to NT), history of the books of the bible, archaeology of the Biblical era, histories or biographies of anyone associated with the Bible or early church (eg., Origen, Iraneus, etc)
2) The one or two books you’re most looking forward to reading currently
3) Prof. Ehrman’s books DO NOT count. We already know about those obviously.
Please keep the number of books to 1-3. No need to name everything you’ve ever read 
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I’ll start by saying that my two favorites have been:
1) “Books and Readers in the Early Church: A History of Early Christian Texts” by Harry Y. Gamble (Prof. Ehrman recommended this one and it was one of the most informative I’ve ever read)
2) “Paul, A Short Introduction” by Morna D. Hooker (One of the first books I read about 10 or so years ago after I determined I was no longer a Christian. First book related to the NT I ever read that treated it’s subject matter clinically and not with the tinted glasses of a theologian).
The two books I’m most looking forward to reading are:
1) “The Canon of the New Testament” by Bruce Metzger (just got it in the mail from Amazon yesterday and eagerly started reading last night!)
2) “The Historical Figure of Jesus” by E.P. Sanders (on my Amazon wish list, I want to see how it compares to Prof. Ehrman’s book on Jesus)
gmatthews said
rosekeister asked about getting a forum for listing our favorite books, but I’m impatient! I like to read and always have at least 5 or 6 books that I’m reading at the same time depending on where I’m at.
I’d like to have a list from others of:
1) Your two favorite all time books on any topic applicable to Prof. Ehrman’s forum. Topics like Biblical criticism (no need to restrict it to NT), history of the books of the bible, archaeology of the Biblical era, histories or biographies of anyone associated with the Bible or early church (eg., Origen, Iraneus, etc)
2) The one or two books you’re most looking forward to reading currently
3) Prof. Ehrman’s books DO NOT count. We already know about those obviously.
Please keep the number of books to 1-3. No need to name everything you’ve ever read
—————————————————————————————————————————
I’ll start by saying that my two favorites have been:
1) “Books and Readers in the Early Church: A History of Early Christian Texts” by Harry Y. Gamble (Prof. Ehrman recommended this one and it was one of the most informative I’ve ever read)
2) “Paul, A Short Introduction” by Morna D. Hooker
Thank for mentioning theHooker book. Ill have to order that one. Dale Allison mentions Hooker a few times and I always wanted to find somthing by this author
gmatthews said he is interested in books we have read applicable to The Forum content.
Search the Scriptures by Dr. Robert Greenblatt.
This book would seem to refute Dr. Ehrman’s comment somewhere here on the blog that science cannot lend explanations for some of the Bible stories.
Dr. Ehrman’s response to Todd (My Resentment at Moody Bible Institute/May 21, 2015): “My view is that modern science will never help us understand the Bible better, since its authors were completely ignorant of science.”
Dr. Robert Greenblatt’s Search the Scriptures does exactly that!
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I just a finished a good book to read before or after reading Prof. Ehrman’s latest. It is Biblical Literalism: A Gentile Heresy by John Shelby Spong. Bishop Spong uses the book of Matthew to present the idea of the gospels as stories modeled on the Jewish liturgical calendar. They were never meant to be thought of as history and the original Jewish listeners would have understood this. His ideas come from his friendship and study of the books of Michael Goulder. Bishop Spong wrote an earlier book on this topic in 1997 Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible with Jewish Eyes.
Biblical Literalism presents a minority challenge to the predominant view of actual events seen by eyewitnesses who told stories that entered into an oral tradition which were later collected into the gospels.
Rosekeister said
I just a finished a good book to read before or after reading Prof. Ehrman’s latest. It is Biblical Literalism: A Gentile Heresy by John Shelby Spong. Bishop Spong uses the book of Matthew to present the idea of the gospels as stories modeled on the Jewish liturgical calendar. They were never meant to be thought of as history and the original Jewish listeners would have understood this. His ideas come from his friendship and study of the books of Michael Goulder. Bishop Spong wrote an earlier book on this topic in 1997 Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible with Jewish Eyes.
Biblical Literalism presents a minority challenge to the predominant view of actual events seen by eyewitnesses who told stories that entered into an oral tradition which were later collected into the gospels.
A very intriguing title for Spong’s book. Biblical Literalism: A Gentile Heresy. That sounds worth reading – but does Spong focus on his theory without distracting the reader with church/pastoral concerns?
My view is that a Gentile Heresy, reading the gospel as literal history, came about once Jewish history faded from memory. i.e. Jewish readers would read the gospels and see reflections of their history within it’s pages (as well, of course, for ‘spiritual’ or philosophical insights) Once Jewish historical memory faded from view – the gospels became viewed literally, became viewed as history.
So, Spong and I might differ regarding what the Gentile Heresy was – but agree that a ‘heresy’ took place. If the book is scholarly and not tied up with his theological/church concerns I might consider ordering it….
So, Spong is indebted to Michael Goulder – Goulder was involved with ‘The Myth of God Incarnate’ book – the book that opened my eyes to the ideas of NT scholarship…
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