… Even if the day we celebrate it on, December 25th, was originally a Roman Holiday for their Sun God, to bring pagan and Christian alike into a more happily felt unity. Since I recently watched a video on the topic, but was never given an actual citation about Mithra, if anyone has it, this might be a good place to share it, and I Thank you!
Saturnalia is an ancient Roman festival and holiday in honour of the god Saturn, held on 17 December of the Julian calendar and later expanded with festivities through to 25 December. The holiday was celebrated with a sacrifice at the Temple of Saturn, in the Roman Forum, and a public banquet, followed by private gift-giving, continual partying, and a carnival atmosphere that overturned Roman social norms: gambling was permitted, and masters provided table service for their slaves as it was seen as a time of liberty for both slaves and freedmen alike.[1] A common custom was the election of a “King of the Saturnalia”, who gave orders to people, which were followed and presided over the merrymaking. The gifts exchanged were usually gag gifts or small figurines made of wax or pottery known as sigillaria. The poet Catullus called it “the best of days”.[2]
= Wikipedia
Even if . . . December 25th, was originally a Roman Holiday for their Sun God,
‘Twasn’t though.
The Christian feast of Christmas was not based on Saturnalia or Sol Invictus. There are lots of historians out there who will gladly explain why (e.g., ** you do not have permission to see this link **). It’s funny because the actual story of how they came up with the 25th as the date is hardly more favorable.
WOW… neat connections Steefen! There was also something about a Pope named Julian around 350 using the day as Jesus birthday simply because no one knows what it really was, and this way at least we get to recognize it and offer appreciation too… sort of like a Happy Birthday prayer, or even generosity giving… imagine if it meant you were supposed to love someone different in his name… as they wanted, of course!
Hi Porphyry:
Thanks for the interesting video… it seems like many were trying to come up with a birthday for Jesus and using all kinds of examples to associate it with… be it Saturnalia, either actual or imposed, or people custom blurred, but also as cited in the video, the idea that Jesus conception was determined to be March 25th… again, the writers who put that in may ALSO have simply wanted to bring more practicality to what they were writing about. Nine months from the conception date, Poof, we have a birth! Makes sense but… He said she said? Lots of possibilities here. Isn’t it interesting that whether it’s true or not it doesn’t actually matter because we mostly treat it as if it was, and the spirit of this season just can’t be beat, anywhere else in the year, regardless… eh?! I think of Constantine though, wanting One God (him) and letting the Church know that they needed to do something to bring the larger percentage of different God loving (pagan type) people into the new One God Christian version, little by little from his victory on that bridge, till about 50 years later, so much so that by 379 Christianity was put in place AS the Religion of all Romans… whether they wanted it to be that way or not, they best not chance angering the very alive emperor-God! The value of a belief being so real that just the communal agreement makes it seem like indisputable reality!
Sorry, I had trouble following that. But in particular,
I think of Constantine though, wanting One God (him) . . . whether they wanted it to be that way or not, they best not chance angering the very alive emperor-God!
Are you saying Constantine insisted that the Church worship him as the one God?
Hi Porphyry:
I’m asking you to think with me as to what emotional gymnastics Christians with their first chance to avoid persecution in 300 years must have gone through when Constantine (who indeed thought of himself as a God who was actively working to be the One person the entire empire answered to, including the Church, whose ideology of one God suited Constantine’s purposes quite well, if surreptitiously so.) took over. I doubt there was any such separation of Church and State at that time as there is today, and in some cases it became quite evident that when Constantine attended the Council of Nicea in 325 the government could be seen actually making decisions for the Church… Arianism and letting those Christians who denied their Faith during the prosecutions come back, were difficult topics that were disagreed upon. Then think of how many of the pagan holidays, a normal part of Roman life for centuries, were used to feign Christian God purposes for ALL citizens… I doubt Jesus, or anyone really speaking for him, would have said his followers should be led by power (though it certainly can be helpful at times, in the right context). So I’m asking us, Porphyry, to think through what it must have been like if we had been there in those times and situations… imagine if you were the Church leaders, and given power that (like today) depends on keeping the people who gave it to you happy. Quite possibly, though we’ve never been told to see it this way before, but as one video I saw on the subject declared… the “Prince of Peace” (the real Jesus’ interests and Way of Life) was quickly changing to a “God of War” (led behind the scenes by the powers and pressures of the Emperor himself). We may be reading between the lines a bit here, but What do you think actually was happening in those days?
Jeremiah 52 Jeconiah is raised up by Ewel Marduk, on the 12th month, 25th day. He trades in his rags for more proper attire, and his put at the head of the table of kings.
I think this tale is reworked to create the story of Jesus Jehozadak in Zechariah 3, especially where the change of robes seems to indicate the forgiveness of sins of all of Israel.
And of course Jesus Jehozadak seems to be fodder for later Christ Jesus, especially the book of Hebrews.
Could 12/25 actually be a date borrowed from the earliest sources used later to describe Jesus of Nazareth?
Thanks for the very relevant and recent video you shared (Nothaft) Robert. It covers the subject in depth and gives many differing possible associative reasons for using December 25th to mark Jesus Birthday. It just plain makes sense to me, coming from the mentality of both the Christian Leaders and the Roman people’s then traditions to match up. Given the most probable fact that no one actually knows the actual birthday of Jesus anyway, so that just calling any day his birthday, but giving it more festive and celebratory reasons than by itself alone did also work to bring the 90 or so percent Pagan Population into a more unified sense of a common populace with the Christian leaders trying to share the message in any way they could given the circumstance they found themselves in. We have to understand, of course, that Pagans should not be looked as as if they were a “dirty word”… but in fact were honestly admitting their own subservience to forces around them they could not control, and were trying to admit their subordination by trying to “communicate” with it as a servant to be saved, as it were, by giving those forces names and trying to personify them (calling them Super-human, (Gods) which indeed the forces were, though in a different sense than the way Hebrews and Christians defined a “God”) in order to help them deal with the fears associated with those forces. Comparatively speaking, the Pagans (just a name for the ordinary people of that day and place, possibly like the regular citizen of today) thinking they should offer sacrifices to those Gods to avoid things beyond their control ruining their lives, just as the Christians later wanted to give homage to the creator of the world, and be together with the forces of creation, no matter what your perception of them and how to accomplish it. Paul was actually following that mind frame, though one God fearing Jew that he was, in persecuting Christians because he thought they were making his God so angry that he might get rid of all of the 12 tribes (10 were already gone) if they didn’t appease him.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert