So I’ve been a Christian my entire life. I was raised Baptist but about a decade ago I researched the topic more and found out that to be Protestant was to reject the foundation of Christianity and the history. I could no longer reasonable say that everyone had it wrong for 1500 years after Jesus Christ’s ministry and now Martin Luther saved us from the wrong doctrines through the Reformation, so I became a Catholic.
Last year I started to research even more, dedicating my life to the issue, watching debates, reading books, and just thinking for myself. I have never spent more time on any other subject than this. I am consumed by it and still searching for the truth.
I have now become convinced that The Bible has so many errors, bad science, failed prophecies, and horrible immorality. The same goes for the Quran and any other proposed god concepts. I don’t believe in God anymore.
But I sometimes have this nagging and irrational fear of hell. It comes and goes. Its not really anything new since I always had this fear. It does seem less impactful now, but every now and again I have these horrible thoughts.
Does this eventually go away? How can I cope? Why do I still have this baggage on this one single topic even though I can say with certainty that all of the other spiritual stuff in the Scripture are wrong?
It really is something I still struggle with. I know it sounds like Pascal’s Wager, but that’s not really my intention, since that is a terrible argument that I never found to hold up to scrutiny. It’s an internal struggle that I just can’t seem to kick.
Thanks.
-Mark (29 years old)
Even from a Scriptural standpoint, the “eternal hell” doctrine isn’t expressed in the Bible as resoundingly as mainstream Christianity would have us believe. This deals with translational ambiguities, amongst other factors. (Mr. Ehrman could speak on this more authoritatively.)
When you come to understand that Source Creator is in all things, and that the ultimate goal is universal gratification and cosmic harmony, the fear of eternal torment subsides. Of course, you don’t seem to be believe in a Source Creator at this point, but nonetheless, eternal purposeless torment for any soul is not in the cards. Yes, there will be chastisement and severe judgment for many, but it has a purpose – to ultimately bring restoration.
“Source Creator” I have not heard that term before. But it sounds like you are referring to some sort of “Karma”. Is that true? And when you suggest severe judgement for some in order to bring restoration… where are you getting this information? I don’t mean this to be rhetorical or offensive, I am genuinely interested in your point of view.
But I sometimes have this nagging and irrational fear of hell. It comes and goes. Its not really anything new since I always had this fear. It does seem less impactful now, but every now and again I have these horrible thoughts.
Indoctrination runs deep. Fear is a matter of the glands not the intellect. I don’t know if this will help but ask yourself, are you afraid of the Islamic hell or the Buddhist hell? If not is it because to you they are just stories? To Muslims and Buddhists the Christian hell is just a story too. You only fear what you were taught.
And the Christian hell is absurd. Sure there are evil people in the world but how many deserve eternal torture? And by the logic of the position the vast majority of all the people who have ever lived are doomed to hell simply because they either never heard of Jesus or don’t worship him. And God set it up this way? Really? And God’s the good guy?
One other thing. your fear will fade over time. But you might find it mutating into something else – anger. Anger at the way you were taught and the way others are taught. Anger can eat you up too. Unfortunately many folks come out of religion and overcome the fear only to be consumed by anger. It’s a hard journey. No one escapes unscathed.
Congrats to you, and for what it’s worth remember one thing. You’re not alone.
Thank you, Stephen. I have pondered the fact that I don’t worry about other religions nearly as much as the one I was brought up in.
It reminds me of something Sam Harris said in one of his debates, I think against William Lane Craig. Something along the lines of (paraphrasing) “I don’t think we appreciate just how much sleep is NOT lost thinking about Islam’s hell.”
And yes hell does seem absurd. Punishment\Discipline is meant to teach a lesson, right? How can you ever learn your lesson if it is perpetual and never ending? It just seems like a vile thing.
marksutherin87 said
“Source Creator” I have not heard that term before. But it sounds like you are referring to some sort of “Karma”. Is that true? And when you suggest severe judgement for some in order to bring restoration… where are you getting this information? I don’t mean this to be rhetorical or offensive, I am genuinely interested in your point of view.
What you say could be considered somewhat correct. Monotheistic religion likes to classify “God” as a “person,” particularly a masculine “person.” And while Source Creator certainly does possess personhood, the non-personal laws of existence are every bit as much a part of “God” as Its personhood. Christ’s teachings in the Gospels regarding reaping what one sows are directly related to this; insomuch as the words, thoughts, and actions of individuals will be reciprocated upon them just as surely as a ball thrown up into the air will come back down in this earth-plane existence. Does God “make” the ball fall back to earth, or is the law of gravity an intrinsic part of God’s structure for this reality? In the highest regard, it is not an “either-or” situation. It simply is what it is.
A very important aspect of understanding these things can be found in studying “near-death experience” testimonials. Many have had BOTH heavenly and hellish experiences in the same NDE. Upon returning to earthly existence, they profess that one’s own ideas of “heaven” or “hell” shape their own experiences. If one lives a life of cruelty, deceit, and selfishness and subconsciously knows that such life-essence is “wrong,” he will be judged by what he has been suppressing; judged by his “conscience,” if you will.
But if “God” is identical to the “laws” of nature then why keep dragging all the “God” baggage along as we investigate the laws of nature?
Upon returning to earthly existence…
But what makes you think the person having the experience left “earthly existence” in the first place?
Stephen said
But if “God” is identical to the “laws” of nature then why keep dragging all the “God” baggage along as we investigate the laws of nature?
Upon returning to earthly existence…
But what makes you think the person having the experience left “earthly existence” in the first place?
Not sure the meaning of the first question. As for the second, have you ever put any time into researching NDE testimonials? People have been clinically, physically dead for significant periods of time (several minutes, at least) and resuscitated, thereafter telling of astral travels and transcendent experiences during their time of “deadness.”
Well I can’t speak for Stephen, but I have investigated into NDEs. I have also investigated out of body experiences and astral projection. I researched these things while learning to lucid dream. I love this stuff. I am a regular lucid dreamer maybe like once a week or so. I could more but recently I have been devoting more time into studying the nature of religion, God, and materialism.
Anyways. That being said. I can say with certainty that the claims for NDEs, OBEs, and APs have not met their burden of proof. Actually all of these things fall under lucid dreaming. There is no difference between them. They are all just lucid dreams. Everything happened inside their own mind and had no effect on anyone else’s existence or the rest of reality. It is nothing new. The only verifiable, testable, and approved phenomenon is lucid dreaming. All the others are just confusing and complex labels for the same thing.
I feel like the thread went into a different topic. I was asking about the god concepts. Not universal consciousness. I do appreciate your input though.
marksutherin
a couple of observations
1)
I have now become convinced that The Bible has so many errors, bad science, failed prophecies, and horrible immorality. The same goes for the Quran and any other proposed god concepts. I don’t believe in God anymore.
even if the Bible and Quran and other sacred texts have errors, . . . horrible morality, etc, that doesn’t imply either that God doesn’t exist nor that there can’t be a ‘proposed god concept’ without these.
It just means those texts were written with errors by people with, probably, horrible morals.
2)
But I sometimes have this nagging and irrational fear of hell. It comes and goes. Its not really anything new since I always had this fear.
If you are really sure of the impossibility of God’s existence, then it seems you wouldn’t have those fears.
there are religions without the concept of hell, and even christian denominations with the concept that all will be eventually reconciled with God (i.e. no everlasting hell)
Anyway, it probably behooves you to keep trying to figure it out.
…even if the Bible and Quran and other sacred texts have errors, . . . horrible morality, etc, that doesn’t imply either that God doesn’t exist nor that there can’t be a ‘proposed god concept’ without these.
Sure, but by and large Christians and Jews and Muslims are relying on these texts. And you still have the problem of evidence. Or its lack let me say.
…to keep trying to figure it out.
It all made perfect sense when I was a Christian. Now it makes no sense at all. But I wonder, did it stop making sense when I stopped being a Christian, or did I stop being a Christian when it stopped making sense?
magpie said
In physics, chemistry and mathematics you will find truth. Otherwise not so much.
Well if by truth you mean facts about the universe I agree with you. But there are truths to be learned through your own experience and the experiences of others, not facts but truths of human experience expressed through art and music and literature. You’ve given me the chance the quote William Carlos Williams –
It is difficult
to get the news from poems
yet men die miserably every day
for lack
of what is found there.
Aye, ’tis true, that. But in the final analysis is it not that the brain which generates these emotions operates on chemicals and electrical impulses? Just because what we “feel” and “believe” is due to a delightful complexity of biochemistry, electricity and physics does not make it less wonderess to experience.
Regarding how to deal with the nagging fear of hell, I have two suggestions. First, gallows humor. Mohammed says that “those who disbelieve in and reject My communications, they are the inmates of the fire, in it they shall abide.” Therefore, you’ll still go to hell if you accept Christ, but a different God will send you there. Damned if you do and damned if you don’t.
Second, the devil is in the details. Try googling “salvation of the heathen” and “salvation of infants.” Look at evangelical Christians struggling with the rules that send babies to hell, and becomes hard to take the whole thing seriously. For me, if heaven ain’t a lot like Texas, then I don’t want to go – especially my dog can’t get in.
If your fear of ‘hell’, a place that does not exist, is causing you pain you should talk to a clinical psychologist. I was raised as a Christian and understand this fear. It is not a fear of anything real. It should not cause you pain. Science has advanced to the point where there are techniques (and drugs) that can be used to eliminate the suffering caused by these cruel doctrines.
Thank you Alfred. I feel like over time the fear is fading away. Even by the time I made this post. I have thought it about it more, and contemplated some of the answers, and I feel like I am doing quite a lot better now! It doesn’t have a grasp on my life or anything. It’s more of a time-to-time thing, but it does indeed suck at times.
I used to have issues with this–I have had panic attacks, thinking I may be dying–and my thoughts would turn to, ‘what if my life ended, am I confident that there really is no hell?’
This has helped…in the past couple years, I’ve started keeping a running list of one reason after another, why Christianity almost certainly isn’t true. I’m up to about 100 reasons. I keep the best reasons near the top. They are usually just a brief sentence, often with a response to any counter argument. (Like I’m debating myself 😉
I used to have more ‘doubts’ about my lack of faith–but since keeping this list, off the top of my head, I can rattle off one reason after another. And if I hear some reason that seems to support Christianity (I honestly think there are some legitimate ones, that I can’t always answer right away, if ever), I just have to briefly look at the avalanche of evidence that makes Christianity highly unlikely. I have yet to hear a reason supporting Christianity that comes close to overcoming the opposing evidence.
I have also tried to listen to arguments from ‘the other side’, (from guys with as much education as Bart Ehrman, but who have come to different conclusions), against the reasons for my disbelief. If the most educated supporters of Christianity have really weak arguments, that really solidifies what I have concluded. (I don’t think all their arguments are weak, but for the really big reasons I think they are.) For example, the main reason I don’t believe is that the ‘salvation’ passages are nothing but a big mess of confusion, so much so that this was (I believe) the primary cause of the Protestant Revolution. So, I’ve listened to Catholics debate Protestants about salvation, faith vs ‘faith plus’–and while I think the Catholics win that debate, it’s not always clear, there are passages supporting both views, and it proves my point–the best minds in Christianity can’t even agree on how to be saved. And both groups are using the same source. The only explanation is, God is either incapable or unwilling to explain salvation to us. That’s all I need. There’s no hell.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
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