Just how foolish am I? I spent 30 years as a member of protestant churches. I listened and even read the stories that are told in church but questioning anything was unthinkable.
So after believing something for 30 years, I took the time to read the bible cover to cover and feel like such an idiot for not having done it sooner. How could I have claimed to be a Christian without ever having read the handbook for Christianity. A few of my opinions from doing such:
1. Any Middle School English Teacher, who even tries to catch plagiarism from her students, could read the 4 gospels and determine they were not written independently. I lead a pretty boring life but if four people independently wrote about my life over the past couple of years the stories would have more variations then the Gospels.
2. The doctrine of every church I have been a member of was based almost entirely on Paul’s ideas yet Paul comes across to me as a drama queen with a serious inferiority complex.
3. The absurdity of some of the stories are just over the top and so much of these stories is conveniently ignored in church.
4. Christianity shouldn’t even exist in my mind. If someone believes the Bible (OT or NT) they should be Jewish.
5. If God is outside of time and space then why in a matter of a couple thousand years does he change so much. The God of the Old Testament is not the God of the New Testament.
6. The argument that everyone wants to use to defend what is in the Bible is that I have to understand the context. If the Bible is God’s Holy Word then the only context should be truths….not that slavery is OK, stoning a child is OK or that Genocide is OK.
I have begun reading Dr. Bart Ehrman’s books and I guess my questions are how do I now stop worrying that I am making a serious mistake and am going to find my self in Hell for a couple trillion years?
if I speak a word of this to anyone in my family they are going to want to have a prayer intervention and be convinced that its the devil doing this to me so how can I possibly be honest with them?
How do I forgive myself for being a sheep who willfully chose to follow the herd and not think for myself?
Thank you in advance for any responses
God is not stupid, but humanity is….. I highly recommend this book written by a late 19th century editorialist and lecturer as he confronts the issues that you (and I) see. He maintains his profound belief in God, while brushing off how humanity tries to put God uniquely in their own definitions and rules.
croquemore, don’t be so hard on yourself. And don’t waste time self-flagellating. Millions of people have gone through what you’re going through, more and more every day. I was raised by hard core fundamentalists and it was only when I moved away to school that I encountered authority figures who thought substantially different that the people who raised me. Everybody starts somewhere. The important thing is to keep moving.
It’ll take a while to get over the indoctrination. But it does tend to fade with time. And you’re doing the right thing. Increasing your knowledge. It does work.
Coming out to your family and friends can be dicey. Not everyone is ready for the truth. I would recommend that you not make it a crisis or treat it like an intervention. Just broach the subject at first by indicating you’re having questions. Kind of feel your way forward.
Good luck to you. Hope this helped.
croquemore said
Just how foolish am I? I spent 30 years as a member of protestant churches. I listened and even read the stories that are told in church but questioning anything was unthinkable.So after believing something for 30 years, I took the time to read the bible cover to cover and feel like such an idiot for not having done it sooner. How could I have claimed to be a Christian without ever having read the handbook for Christianity. A few of my opinions from doing such:
1. Any Middle School English Teacher, who even tries to catch plagiarism from her students, could read the 4 gospels and determine they were not written independently. I lead a pretty boring life but if four people independently wrote about my life over the past couple of years the stories would have more variations then the Gospels.
2. The doctrine of every church I have been a member of was based almost entirely on Paul’s ideas yet Paul comes across to me as a drama queen with a serious inferiority complex.
3. The absurdity of some of the stories are just over the top and so much of these stories is conveniently ignored in church.
4. Christianity shouldn’t even exist in my mind. If someone believes the Bible (OT or NT) they should be Jewish.
5. If God is outside of time and space then why in a matter of a couple thousand years does he change so much. The God of the Old Testament is not the God of the New Testament.
6. The argument that everyone wants to use to defend what is in the Bible is that I have to understand the context. If the Bible is God’s Holy Word then the only context should be truths….not that slavery is OK, stoning a child is OK or that Genocide is OK.
I have begun reading Dr. Bart Ehrman’s books and I guess my questions are how do I now stop worrying that I am making a serious mistake and am going to find my self in Hell for a couple trillion years?
if I speak a word of this to anyone in my family they are going to want to have a prayer intervention and be convinced that its the devil doing this to me so how can I possibly be honest with them?
How do I forgive myself for being a sheep who willfully chose to follow the herd and not think for myself?
Thank you in advance for any responses
You might live in a clan / inner circle which will, no doubt, abandon you.
Keep what you’ve learned to yourself. Be grateful for this forum that you are not totally isolated.
I feel where you are coming from. I am from a fundamentalist background, and was a firm believer in hellfire and brimstone. And I had read the Bible back to back multiple times.
It takes a long time to finally break the chains of what you originally believed in full. My best suggestion is to explore Metaphysical, Epistemological, and Ontological philosophy. Those are what eventually settled things down for me, especially when you see how much of the New Testament was influenced by Greek philosophy and religious notions.
The first thing to do is forgive yourself. It isn’t your fault for being a believer. Psychologically we are actually inclined to do so.
As far as coming out to family members, try and find individual family members you can trust. I personally have not outed myself to my own family, and its been a couple years since I had my own “fall from grace”, to use Christian terminology.
Thank you all for the responses and suggestions. I will look into each and every one of them. I will keep my thoughts quiet with the family until I get past the newness of it all and can really explain my position. As for just keeping it to myself permanently, I cant help but think that the only way to make the fundamentalist church any sillier is if it were full of people who didn’t really believe what they were saying/hearing but were afraid of being the first to admit it.
I wonder if some churches are already in that situation…..
Stephen said
Keep what you’ve learned to yourself. Be grateful for this forum that you are not totally isolated.Rubbish. There are plenty of folks out in the real world who have escaped. More and more every day!
Bad advice. The original poster can be abandoned by his family and relatives. The original poster is not talking about strangers out in the real world. Because you are talking about plenty of strangers in the real world who have escaped, one isn’t abandoned by strangers. That’s not the risk. The risk is being abandoned by those who have been acquainted with you for decades.
The original poster can be abandoned by his family and relatives.
True, and in my original response I did recommend caution. But ultimately you are saying we should live a lie to assuage the tender sensibilities of our relatives and friends who are believers. Many do this to their frustration. Me, I lost some friends and have some relatives who think me damned. But if they can’t love me and accept me for who I am and require me to deny what I truly believe then no great loss. There are pains on the path to enlightenment but they are growing pains. Silence is a kind of death. But each one must find his or her own way.
Well, if you have to break free of parochialism, know this:
Globalization and Global Mobility for All and Astrology:
With globalization and global mobility you can experience your best life through Astrocartography.
Without globalization and global mobility you cannot experience your best life through Astrocartography.
You may be able to have philanthropy and programs but they will never match what a planetary angle can give you:
Jupiter on the MC – dream home
Jupiter on the IC – “Life given by the God you always wanted”
Sun on the DS – Perfect relationships
Sun on the IC – Parenthood and Rertirement Excellence
Mercury on the AC – Physical Agility
North Node on the MC – Unload Clutter
Venus on the MC – Social and Artistic Success
Well, if you have to break free of parochialism, know this:
Globalization and Global Mobility for All and Astrology:
With globalization and global mobility you can experience your best life through Astrocartography.
Without globalization and global mobility you cannot experience your best life through Astrocartography.
You may be able to have philanthropy and programs but they will never match what a planetary angle can give you:
Jupiter on the MC – dream home
Jupiter on the IC – “Life given by the God you always wanted”
Sun on the DS – Perfect relationships
Sun on the IC – Parenthood and Rertirement Excellence
Mercury on the AC – Physical Agility
North Node on the MC – Unload Clutter
Venus on the MC – Social and Artistic Success
Uh…well…I have no idea what this is, sorry. I don’t believe in god or astrology.
Also know, those who do not agree with you will not honor your final wishes and will seek to triumph in family politics with viciousness.
Giving us a chance to return good for evil and shame the Christians.
Croquemore-
There is no reason to beat yourself up. We all were raised to believe in concepts that later proved to be not factual: Santa, The Easter Bunny, The Tooth Fairy, Jack Frost….etc. No adult beats themselves up over these saying ” Woe is me, why did I believe in these things?” The answer is simple, we believed in these things because as children, we were told these things were fact.
I believe Bart Ehrman (and others) are doing a great service to humanity. Believing in facts and the preponderance of all available evidence is a gift. Personally, I was never comfortable with the oft quoted saying of “take this on faith (insert miracle here; that Jesus rose from the dead, turned water into wine etc).” Faith without salient facts in which to back it up is (to me) simply a belief; an attitude. And it is so true the saying, “Facts do not change attitudes”. To me, facts are substantiated evidence and attitudes are beliefs or feelings, longings, which may not have any basis in fact at all.
You have much company Croquemore! Do not think for one iota that you are alone!
Hey, go easy on yourself.
We are all influenced by our culture and institutions. The structure of many of our institutions is strongly hierarchical and deference to authority is something that is strongly emphasized and expected. It is something that we are taught over and over in our public schools. We are essentially conditioned not to question or challenge the powers that be.
In short, most of us are not encouraged to think critically until we enter a college or university. But even then, critical thinking is not always given sufficient emphasis – and the university system itself remains hierarchical. Students are often afraid to question a professor or to give negative feedback on a course evaluation.
If authoritarian tendencies present themselves in the majority of our institutions, how much more so is deference to tradition and ministerial authority expected in the church.
So, to me, it is amazing and wonderful that you did begin the process of questioning that which must not be questioned. This is liberation and freedom in its most essential form. You need to celebrate it and I will drink a toast to your courage and honesty!
Let me grab my wine bottle!
Agreed. I don’t think you were foolish or a sheep – indoctrination, especially when started at a young age – is extremely powerful. In fact, most people who were indoctrinated would not be able to see through the contradictions of the Bible, so you’re one cut above the rest when it comes to critical thinking.
I recommend you listen to this:
It might be helpful. Atheist Experience in general is a good resource.
I hope you get to read this, croquemore, even though it’s been written quite a while after your original post.
1. No one ever claimed these Gospels were entirely independently written. Mark likely wrote his Gospel first and Luke and Matthew took portions of his work. Luke and Matthew also share some other material in common not found in Mark likely from another source often called Q. But there is much information in each not found in the others. Mark has the least unique to itself and John has the most but then John may have been writing in order to specifically provide information not found in the Synoptics.
2. I don’t see Paul as “a drama queen with a serious inferiority complex.” I’d need to look at the passages you find this in.
3. 4. Why? If there is a God, you don’t think God could give someone the ability to walk on water or come back from the dead? And you think the NT miracles are somehow less credible than parting the Red Sea or making an ax head to float?
5. I don’t think you can show the OT God is different from the NT one. If you get to see this post and you’re interested, we could look at specific passages.
6. There were some OT laws which were allowed, Jesus said, because of the hardness of the people’s hearts. God settled to give them some less than perfect laws because they wouldn’t accept or live by better ones, ones rejecting slavery or child stoning. And that’s only a part of the answer. The genocide question is more complicated. But I think that if you look into it enough you will find the OT God cannot be accused of evil for commanding this. If you want, check out my book Human Suffering and the Evil of Religion (ch 20). I do discuss it more there.
I think that the biblical doctrine of hell is more about God allowing just punishment to those who knowingly reject what they know is true about God and God’s offer of salvation or if they reject merely the possibility that God is there without seeking God or seeking the truth from God. It’s not forever, but God will be just. I’ll offer another book arguing this point if you’re interested.
You should never have been a sheep just following what others told you to believe. But don’t presume there are no good answers to your questions until you’ve looked at the Christian responses. If you refuse to look at those answers, how would you be any less of a sheep?
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert