Robert. Intriguing ideas. Indifference being the new “antagonism” and how religion will respond to this. And the idea that the decline of religiosity could rejuvenate actually rejuvenate “religion”, as such, by purging it of disingenousness in a sense.
I am a bit more familiar with the spiritual history of India and with regard to the latter concept, not unexpectedly, the same pattern occurrs. Crests and troughs of religious vs spiritual emphasis in society. There were many sages who were catalysts of these correctives to religiosity. Shankara, Buddha, Sri Ramakrishna.
A few decades ago, a young man I knew told a story of the day he was ordained a Catholic priest. The local bishop stopped by during the luncheon following the ceremony and he asked if they had any questions. My friend asked:
“What can we do to nurture our congregants’ spirituality as opposed to their their religious engagement?”.
The bishop’s matter-of-fact response was: “They’re the same thing are they not?”
…my friend left the priesthood a few months later.
I believe the “sea change” you mention is occurring in the nature of the movement away from religion – indifference vs antagonism. But I hesitate to believe that large percentages of Americans are moving in that direction. (I would want to analyze the sampling methodology).
And, even if this is occurring, I think it is offset by the intensity – the radicalism – of those not making that move.
I say this because I am a gay man of a certain generation who keeps a close eye on the pervasiveness of religiously based hatred and bigotry. I belong to a group on Facebook that exists for gay men to offer support and compassion to each other. To share our struggles and, in particular, to share our stories. We have thousands of members of all ages from all over the country and the world. And I can say, anectodally from the stories I hear, that the degree and range of the population adhering to strong views of religiosity is not down. At least the incredulity is not dissipating. The markers that organizations who track religiously based hatred toward our people are actually showing an increase over the past three years in the number of people in America holding these views. And not just toward my people, but racism and hatred generally are accelerating in adherents.
Alas… back and forth the pendulum swings.
Dharma I agree there have been waves of religiousity in American history. Rodney Stark estimates that only about 17% of the citizenry were active church goers at the time of the revolution. So much for the Myth of Our Pious Ancestors! There were religious revivals in the 19th century and modern fundamentalism is a reaction to the development of modernism in the late and early 20th centuries.
But there does seem to be a qualtitative difference in the modern decline of general religiosity. But by all means look at the data.
The hardcore is always the last to go. (The reasonable folks accomodate.) And they won’t go quietly. But when the hardcore become the public face of Christianity they simply hasten their demise. The Religious Right can never understand this. All it takes to make people hate them is to put them in charge. It’s their success that destroys them.
Thank you Stephen. I see better what you are saying now. That the increase in hatred my sources report may be more reflective of an escalation in tone rather than numbers.
And with regard to the nature of the change itself, your statement that it is seems “qualitatively” different very much resonated with me. But I would have a hard time articulating how/in what way.
How would you describe in what way this change is qualitatively different?
In the context of our discussion, it seems to at least mean that this feels like the end of the ocillation of religiosity because more and more people are simply stepping away from the game/the ride itself. Would you agree?
How would you describe in what way this change is qualitatively different?
In the context of our discussion, it seems to at least mean that this feels like the end of the ocillation of religiosity because more and more people are simply stepping away from the game/the ride itself. Would you agree?
Yes. Less and less people are willing to even provide any form of lip service to the notion of Christian religiosity. I see a lot of worried Christian groups wondering what they’re doing wrong or how they can reverse these declines (even the formerly solid groups like fundamentalists are also declining now). But when asked to explain their views the so-called “Nones” reply that organized religion simply doesn’t seem relevant anymore. It doesn’t have any answers to their actual questions. And the demographics skew young. The younger people are, the less they are interested.
Let me describe my own experience in the little town in Georgia where I grew up and my family still lives. Sure, you have churches all over the place but what do you actually find? Congregations that used to number in the dozens if not hundreds that have dwindled down to a core of less than 30 or 40 members. What’s really ominous is the age range of these congregations. As I said they skew old. It’s rare to find many members in their 20s or 30s. The ones you do find are in most cases children of older members. You do have these mega-churches but in the cities and in the suburbs. And the decline is less precipitous in the black church for historical reasons.
I suspect the bottom will fall out when the last of the Boomers departs this world over the next 20 years or so. Will we ever achieve european levels of secularity? (Last time I checked 7% of Finns are active church goers!) Probably not. And we’re centuries away from a truly post-Christian society. These folks are not becoming atheists but what it does mean is that Christianity will have to compete for attention. It will become one among many. In the long run indifference is much more corrosive than persecution.
“… indifference is much more corrosive than persecution…”
It is indeed. Nail on head.
Similarly, I grew up in a small town in central west PA. There is a saying…
“in PA you have Pittsburgh, Philadelphia and Alabama in-between.”
This is even more the case in northern PA.
The area I grew up in is predominantly Catholic. And from what I’ve heard, attendence is poor just about everywhere…. Except the church in my little town of 150 people LOL. They must get lots of people from further away bc I hear that the masses are packed with young families, tons of crying babies, etc. In fact, about 15 years ago this little church in the middle of nowhere built a community center, with basketball courts, etc…
And I was impressed about them addressing the needs of the community in this way. (Drug use and poor economic conditions have risen over the years.). And I love to see how strong the community is here.
But, as you can imagine, I wish it could be that way without it being tied to an organization that promotes so much hate.
Of course, the Church promotes and supports good causes as well. And the people in town all help each other and watch over each other. It is really nice.
Like most things in life, the truth is a messy.
But, generally speaking, is religion necessary to imbue our children with these values? I don’t think so. The bigger problem imo is the percentage of young people who seem to have no skills in introspectively or reflection.
I believe these are more important for society than edicts of right and wrong.
It will be interesting to watch how this all unfolds…
Thank you so much for this exchange Stephen.
It will be interesting to watch how this all unfolds…
Yes indeed. The strengths of the church were its sense of community and its providing of an environment in which to consider matters of the “spirit”. I think that if people still need these things then they will create them.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
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