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Let's See If "How Jesus Became God" by Bart Answers Some of My Questions
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Steefen
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November 5, 2017 - 6:22 am

Let’s See If “How Jesus Became God” by Dr. Bart Ehrman Answers Some of My Questions

Question #1
How did Jesus earn godhood?

Question #2
When did Jesus earn godhood?

Question #3
Jesus as a Jewish man is recognized by Jewish people as a god?
Judaism recognizes Jesus as a god?

Question #4
We know that Jesus is Roman propaganda, a Jewish face on Julius Caesar, Augustus Caesar, Vespasian, Titus, and Domitian,
how does Jesus compare to these god-men?

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Steefen
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November 5, 2017 - 6:42 am

For me, the book begins on page 211 at Chapter 6: The Beginning of Christology.

Oh, well, this isn’t a 5 star book right off the bat. How did Jesus earn godhood could be answered by the question, Did people think Jesus was God. Bart doesn’t ask that question, he asks the question, Did Jesus think he was God at Chapter 3. This lack confirms my orientation that the book does not begin until Chapter 6. So, there is insufficient ground for the treatment of the subject matter.

The question, Did Jewish people and Roman people think Jesus was God is a very important question.

Like Julius Caesar, was Jesus included in the pantheon of existing non-human gods as well as the pantheon of humans who were god?
No, not in Jewish society, not in Roman society within the first 10 years of Jesus’ death.

Like Julius Caesar, were there deity honors before death, say at some festival, within the first 10 years of Jesus’ death?
No, not in Judea and not in Rome.

What is this?! God is not recognized as God immediately, not until 40 years later?!

Was there a priest of Jesus within the theocracy as Mark Antony, high up in the Roman Republic, was a priest of Julius Caesar?
No, not in Jewish government, not in Roman governorship of Judea, not in the Roman Empire.

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Steefen
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November 5, 2017 - 12:53 pm

Chapter 6: The Beginning of Christology: Christ as Exalted to Heaven

First Thessalonians 49-50 C.E.
Romans 1: 3-4

Chapter 7: Jesus as God on Earth

(One of My Comments: If Jesus is the Son of the God of Moses, then Jesus needs to at least be a military leader.)

Philippians 2, a pre-Pauline tradition – God exalts Christ Jesus
(One of My Comments: The Hebrew God exalts Julius Caesar in the guise of a Jewish man, Jesus.)

Philippians re-writes Isaiah 45: 22-23 It is to Yahweh (God of Israel) alone that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess.

(One of My Comments: so, Roman imperial cult usurps the Hebrew Bible. Roman Propaganda Mangod, Jesus, is exalted to Yahweh status, usurping reverence reserved for Yahweh and giving it to Julius Caesar and Augustus Caesar in the guise of Jesus. So, Jesus had an Octavian/Augustus Caesar complex.)

John 1: 1, 14, 17

= = =

So, you just have a bunch of writers who make Jesus God.
Certainly Jesus was not worshiped as God of the Jews at the Temple Mount, AD 31 – AD 70 or AD 33 – AD 70/73.

In Rome 100 BCE to AD 100, the theocracy did the deifying not just a bunch of propagandists.

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Steefen
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June 21, 2018 - 4:10 pm

Jeff K, amazon review: “We called you a man”
5-star review, 54 people found helpful

“I remember when this whole thing began. No talk of God then, we called you a man.”
–Judas, in “Jesus Christ Superstar” (1970)


According to Professor Ehrman, none of the disciples, nor Jesus himself, believed during His lifetime that He was God.

“King of the Jews,” yes. As an apocalyptic rabbi, He preached that the coming of the Son of Man was imminent, that evil and corruption would be abolished, and a new Kingdom of Israel established. The twelve disciples would be rulers over the twelve tribes. He, as their lord and master, would be their king on earth, the human successor of David. It was this claim that Judas betrayed to the authorities, and for this insurrectionist incitement that Pilate crucified him.

His followers made him God only upon his death and resurrection. Crucifixion nullified his ambition to be the earthly messiah foretold by the Hebrew Bible, so God raised him up and made him a different kind of messiah—ruler over the Kingdom of Heaven. That, at least, was the view of his earliest followers.

Nicene Creed of 325 AD – Jesus was “the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, … of one Being with the Father” who was “made incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man.”

Reconciling the early with the later positions is Professor’s Ehrman’s objective in this book. What happened between Jesus’s death in 30 AD and the advent of the last Gospel (John) in about 95 AD?

If He was a mere human until resurrection, as His disciples believed, what about the virgin birth, the water into wine, the healing of the sick, the loaves and the fishes, the raising of the dead, all of which occurred before or during His lifetime, as reported in the Gospels?

The New Testament was written by refined, educated Greek-speakers.

Steefen
Who after a hard-fought war (The Jewish Civil War and The Jewish Revolt) decided to take an interest in a Jewish oral tradition or took an interest in creating Noble Lie literature 1) to make Jews more Pro-Roman so there wouldn’t be a Second Jewish-Roman War or a Third Jewish-Roman War (failed on both counts), 2) to get people to worship Julius Caesar, his son of God, Augustus, and the Father & Son pair, Vespasian and Titus, and 3) to incorporate Jewish messianic bravery into Roman Religion by taking on the prestige of a religion that predated Hellenism but did not predate the antiquity of of the religion of Amun, Isis, and Osiris.

Jeff K
The earlier traditions of Jesus can be extracted from the New Testament writings, particularly from Paul and Acts, as what Ehrman calls “pre-literary hymns and creeds” embedded within them, and identified by their distinctive style and vocabulary. In none of these does Jesus or any disciple claim that he was God. They seem uniformly to assert that Jesus became God on his resurrection. So the Nicene view consists of elaborations on the earliest traditions.

The ancient Middle East was awash with God-men myths, from Romlulus to Hercules to Alexander the Great to Ceasar to Appolonius. It was natural for Jesus’s later followers to embellish his story with the tale of a maiden impregnated by God and delivering a divine human. It was a short step from that to the belief that he was ALWAYS God. The virgin birth was simply the mechanism by which he became, temporarily, God incarnate.

This evolution can be traced in the gospels themselves. Mark seems to assume that Jesus became divine at his baptism; Matthew and Luke indicate that he was the divine at birth; John—the latest of the Gospels, dating from about 95 AD—presents him as God eternal. That is the Nicene position.

 
Steefen
Question: So, the source for divine at resurrection is whom? The only one left after Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John is Paul.
 
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Stephen
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July 11, 2018 - 1:21 pm
Steefen
Question: So, the source for divine at resurrection is whom? The only one left after Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John is Paul.
 

 

Romans 1:1-6 Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, 4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, 5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles, for His name’s sake, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ.

 

Acts 13:22-23, 28-39 “And after He {God} had removed him {king Saul}, He raised up David to be their {Israel’s} king, concerning whom He also testified and said, ‘I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My heart, who will do all My will.’ 23 From the offspring of this man {David}, according to promise, God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus… 28 And though they {the Jews} found no ground for putting Him {Jesus} to death, they asked Pilate that He be executed. 29 And when they had carried out all that was written concerning Him, they took Him down from the cross and laid Him in a tomb. 30 But God raised Him from the dead 32 And we preach to you the good news of the promise made to the fathers, 33 that God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm,’ Thou art My Son; TODAY I have begotten Thee.’ 34 And as for the fact that He {God} raised Him {Jesus} up from the dead, no more to return to decay, He has spoken in this way: ‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.’ 35 “Therefore He also says in another Psalm, ‘Thou wilt not allow Thy Holy One to undergo decay.’ 36 For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep, and was laid among his fathers, and underwent decay; 37 but He whom God raised did not undergo decay. 38 Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you…”  

 

Hebrews 5:5-10 So too Christ (the Messiah) did not exalt Himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed and exalted by Him Who said to him, “You are My Son; TODAY I have BEGOTTEN You; 6 as He says also in another place, “You are a Priest appointed forever after the order & with the rank of Melchizedek. 7 In the days of his flesh Jesus offered up definite, special petitions for that which he not only wanted but needed and supplications with strong crying and tears to Him {the Father, God} Who was always able to save him out from death, and he was heard because of his reverence toward God; that is his godly fear, his piety, in that he shrank from the horrors of separation from the bright presence of the Father. 8 Although he was a Son, he learned active obedience through what he suffered; 9 and his completed experience making him perfect he became the Author and Source of eternal salvation to all those who give heed and obey him, 10 being designated and recognized and saluted by God as High Priest after the order & with the rank of Melchizedek. [Psalms 2:7; Psalms 110:4; Isaiah 45:17] AMP

 

Hebrews 7:1-3, 6, 11-19 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem and priest of the Most High God, met Abraham as he returned from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2 and Abraham gave to him a tenth portion of all the spoil. He is primarily, as his name when translated indicates, ‘king of righteousness,’ and then he is also, ‘king of Salem,’ which means, ‘king of peace.’ 3 Without record of father or mother or ancestral line, neither with beginning of days nor ending of life, but resembling the Son of God, he continues to be a priest without interruption and without successor… 7:6 this person who has not their Levitical ancestry received tithes from Abraham himself and blessed him who possessed the promises of God…7:11 Now if perfection, a perfect fellowship between God and the worshiper, had been attainable by the Levitical priesthood–for under it the people were given the Law–why was it further necessary that there should arise another and different kind of Priest, one after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one appointed after the order and rank of Aaron? 12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is of necessity an alteration of the law concerning the priesthood as well. 13 For the one of whom these things are said did not belong to the priestly line but to another tribe, no member of which has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is obvious that our Lord sprang from the tribe of Judah, and Moses mentioned nothing about priests in connection with that tribe. 15 And this becomes more plainly evident when another Priest arises who bears the likeness of Melchizedek, [Psalms 110:4.] 16 Who has been constituted a Priest, not on the basis of a bodily legal requirement an externally imposed command concerning His physical ancestry, but on the basis of the power of an endless and indestructible Life. 17 For it is witnessed of Him, “You are a Priest forever after the order & with the rank) of Melchizedek.” [Psalms 110:4.] 18 So a previous physical regulation and command is cancelled because of its weakness and ineffectiveness and uselessness–19 For the Law never made anything perfect–but instead a better hope is introduced through which we now come close to God.

 

Romans 8:29-30 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he (Jesus) might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (NIV)

 

Hebrews 12:22-24 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant.

 

1 Corinthians 15:3-4, 20-24 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures…20 But the fact is that Christ has been raised from the dead, and he BECAME the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death. 21 For since it was through a man that death came into the world, it is also through a Man that the resurrection of the dead has come. 22 For just as in Adam all people die, so also shall all in Christ be made alive. 23 But each in his own rank and turn: Christ is the firstfruits, then those who are Christ’s own will be resurrected at his coming. 24 After that comes the end (the completion), when he {Jesus the man} delivers over the kingdom to God the Father after rendering inoperative and abolishing every other rule and every authority and power. 

 

1 Peter 3:18-22 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you– not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience– through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him. NAS

 

Colossians 2:12-15 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

Ephesians 1:18-22 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might 20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church.

 

1 Corinthians 15:35-38, 40, 42-58 But someone will say, “How can the dead be raised? With what [kind of] body will they come forth?” 36 You foolish man! Every time you plant seed, you sow something that does not come to life germinating, springing up, and growing unless it dies first. 37 Nor is the seed you sow then the body, which it is going to have later, but it is a naked kernel, perhaps of wheat or some of the rest of the grains. 38 But God gives to it the body that He plans and sees fit, and to each kind of seed a body of its own… 40 There are heavenly bodies (sun, moon, and stars) and there are earthly bodies (men, animals, and plants), but the beauty and glory of the heavenly bodies is of one kind, while the beauty and glory of earthly bodies is a different kind… 42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead.   The body that is sown is perishable and decays, but the body that is resurrected is imperishable (immune to decay, immortal). 43 It is sown in dishonor and humiliation; it is raised in honor and glory. It is sown in infirmity and weakness; it is resurrected in strength and endued with power. 44 It is sown a natural (physical) body; it is raised a supernatural (a spiritual) body. As surely as there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 Thus it is written, ‘The first man Adam became a living being (an individual personality); the last Adam (Christ) became a life-giving Spirit restoring the dead to life. 46 But it is not the spiritual life, which came first, but the physical and then the spiritual. 47 The first man was from out of earth, made of dust (earthly-minded); the second MAN is the Lord from out of heaven. 48 Now those who are made of the dust are like him who was first made of the dust (earthly-minded); and as is the Man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven (heavenly-minded). 49 And just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, so shall we and so let us also bear the image of the Man of heaven. 50 But I tell you this, brethren, flesh and blood cannot become partakers of eternal salvation and inherit or share in the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable, (that which is decaying), inherit or share in the imperishable (the immortal). 51 Take notice! I tell you a mystery (a secret truth, an event decreed by the hidden purpose or counsel of God). We shall not all fall asleep in death, but we shall all be changed (transformed) 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the sound of the last trumpet call. For a trumpet will sound, and the dead in Christ will be raised imperishable (free and immune from decay), and we shall be changed (transformed). 53 For this perishable part of us must put on the imperishable nature, and this mortal part of us, this nature that is capable of dying must put on immortality, freedom from death. 54 And when this perishable puts on the imperishable and this that was capable of dying puts on freedom from death, then shall be fulfilled the Scripture that says, ‘Death is swallowed up; utterly vanquished forever in and unto victory. [Isaiah 25:8.] 55 O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting? [Hosea 13:14.] 56 Now sin is the sting of death, and sin exercises its power upon the soul through the abuse of the Law. 57 But thanks be to God, Who gives us the victory [making us conquerors] through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be firm (steadfast), immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord; always being superior, excelling, doing more than enough in the service of the Lord, knowing and being continually aware that your labor in the Lord is not futile it is never wasted or to no purpose.

John 12:23-25ff And Jesus answered them, “The time has come for the Son of Man to be glorified and exalted. 24 I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains (meno) just one grain; it never becomes more but lives by itself alone. But if it dies, it produces many others and yields a rich harvest. 25 Anyone who loves his life loses it, but anyone who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal. (Read verses 26-34)

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Steefen
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July 24, 2018 - 8:34 pm

So to Paul, you would like to add the author of Acts, Hebrews, 1 Peter. Colossians and Ephesians have not been established as authentically Paul’s.

1 Peter 3: 18 defines what resurrection is to him:
put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit

As for your 1 Peter reference and your Ephesians reference that Jesus is at God’s right hand, Bart Ehrman has yet to conclude Jesus was the Son of Man. Second, Jesus did not fulfill all he foretold about the Son of Man.

As for your John reference, is there a Son of Man mass in Catholicism? Is there a prayer card for the Son of Man? Is there a Son of Man feast day? What is the greatest Son of Man song in Catholic or Protestant hymnals?

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Stephen
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July 24, 2018 - 8:51 pm

You asked abut references in the NT to Jesus being made divine at the Resurrection.   I make no claim about the provenance of any of these passages.  Merely trying to be helpful.  Apparently for many folks early on this was a common view. 

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prestonp
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July 25, 2018 - 6:42 am

When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, He questioned His disciples: “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” 14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 “But what about you?” Jesus asked. “Who do you say I am?”…6 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Pretty clear and straight forward. 

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prestonp
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July 28, 2018 - 12:56 am

By definition, God always was and will be, God is eternal, everlasting, infinite, omniscient, immutable, omnipresent, omnipotent, etc. Jesus put off a few divine qualities while He hung out on earth. But, He always existed. He will always exist. He has always existed for the purpose of redeeming mankind. That is how important man is to Him. 

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Steefen
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August 1, 2018 - 8:16 pm

Stephen said
You asked abut references in the NT to Jesus being made divine at the Resurrection.   I make no claim about the provenance of any of these passages.  Merely trying to be helpful.  Apparently for many folks early on this was a common view.   

Thank you for the help.

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