After you have watched the video, feel free to discuss how Bart’s book on Heaven and Hell contributes to the conversation.
His Chapter Four asks: “Will Justice Be Done?
The answer is, Yes. (What is Bart’s conclusion to Chapter Four?)
Recommendation: Also read Journey of Souls (1994) by Michael Newton, then his second book, Destiny of Souls (2000) by Michael Newton.
At least Christianity has a frame of culture and understanding that explains the mystery of life and death.
It’s not a logical frame but it’s reasonable.
Reincarnation or rebirth or transmigration is a religious belief that has an ancient tradition: i.e. Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, Sikhism.
Penny Kelly’s explanations of incarnation are a syncretic (and simplistic) potpourri of ideas picked up here and there.
I don’t see how to draw any comparison with Bart’s work.
On the other hand, I feel is much what Paul did in the first place with the disciples of Jesus, he mixed his own experience and personal views to create something distant from Judaism.
Penny Kelly’s ideas are as much incoherent as Paul’s.
janmaru
Christianity has a frame of culture and understanding that explains the mystery of life and death that is reasonable but not logical.
Steefen
Christianity’s frame of culture and understanding that explains life and death: Christian culture is to Love God, love your neighbor, regret your shortcomings, be merciful. When you die, you may continue to live, unless you are destroyed in the afterlife.
This is also a culture of misunderstanding and error about resurrection.
janmaru
Reincarnation or rebirth or transmigration is a religious belief that has an ancient tradition: i.e. Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, Sikhism.
Steefen
Old Souls: Compelling Evidence from Children Who Remember Past Lives by Tom Shroder is not a book of cases based on religious beliefs.
Children Who Remember Previous Lives by Ian Stevenson is not a book of cases based on religious beliefs.
This is the revised edition of Dr. Stevenson’s 1987 book, summarizing for general readers almost forty years of experience in the study of children who claim to remember previous lives. For many Westerners the idea of reincarnation seems remote and bizarre; it is the author’s intent to correct some common misconceptions. New material relating to birthmarks and birth defects, independent replication studies with a critique of criticisms, and recent developments in genetic study are included. The work gives an overview of the history of the belief in and evidence for reincarnation. Representative cases of children, research methods used, analyses of the cases and of variations due to different cultures, and the explanatory value of the idea of reincarnation for some unsolved problems in psychology and medicine are reviewed.
Journey of Souls [regarding Life between Lives] by Michael Newton is not a book of cases based on religious beliefs.
janmaru
Penny Kelly’s ideas are incoherent.
Steefen
You are unfamiliar with the material in this field which contributes to your errors in judgment. I will not reply to you on this subject until you do some reading that includes research methods used and analyses of cases in the three books mentioned above. We look forward to that and your amazon book reviews on the above three books. Until then, bye.
There’s a problem with the idea of reincarnation that renders it unlikely. Namely the fact of population growth. There are more people alive at once than at any other time in human history. And the population is growing exponentially. Thus for the overwhelming majority of people this has to be their first time. The only way you could have a situation where everybody has multiple incarnations is if the population is declining. Think about it.
Steefen
You are unfamiliar with the material in this field which contributes to your errors in judgment. I will not reply to you on this subject until you do some reading that includes research methods used and analyses of cases in the three books mentioned above. We look forward to that and your amazon book reviews on the above three books. Until then, bye.
Well, I don’t care whether you answer this or not.
Penny Kelly’s ideas smell like fish. At least for what I remember, being a vegetarian for ages.
No book would suffice practice and personal experience. I never stated that “reincarnation” is not true, I said that the ideas brought about in the video are confused and incoherent (I guess you would appreciate or understand the difference.)
I’m aware of how the Fifth Dalai Lama (for instance) recollects of his previous lives and also His successors. There’s no need to read any vacuous book like “Children Who Remember Previous Lives”.
Tibetan Buddhism has been a real science of the mind, for the method used and for the ability to define a protocol to discard what is illusory and what is factually proven. And you know what?
The Fifth Dalai Lama was recognized as Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen by Tsawa Kachu, as a second-rate reincarnation. Reincarnation itself, clearly it is not an award-based system, it’s not simple to find the person who is the actual reincarnation.
There are stories about one conscience been split into twice and been born as two different beings. (This to answer also @Stephen observation on the known problem of the number of beings being available from the start of time.)
The ideas presented in the video are a mix-up of different religions and creeds (mostly from east religion) and the Q&A really painful.
I was in the business for a while and I never heard of her, I should thank you for the call. Awakening of kundalini?
It must have been an ant crawling on her back.
All this speculation is moot for the simple fact that there is no evidence whatsoever that a human being consists of anything other than the material body. What happens is that upon death the substances that make up our bodies dissolve back into their component parts and rejoin the physical flow. Our conscious individuality ceases, a brief flicker in the endless dark. Deal with it.
I feel I’m misunderstood on this.
I just said that Penny Kelly is out of any league. She takes things here and there, and almost obviously without experiencing anything at all.
The point is not whether we do have a materialist point of view but if our views are somehow smashed in a coherent view of thinking.
I said that Christianity is not built on a logical frame but after all it’s reasonable. So I would say about Buddhism, etc…
What I’m not willing to accept is some wish wash thinking of people taking second-hand knowledge and selling out as an original view.
Incarnating into torture? Really?
Stephen said
All this speculation is moot for the simple fact that there is no evidence whatsoever that a human being consists of anything other than the material body. What happens is that upon death the substances that make up our bodies dissolve back into their component parts and rejoin the physical flow. Our conscious individuality ceases, a brief flicker in the endless dark. Deal with it.
There is no speculation. You just are not educated about these matters. You were given a reading list.
janmaru said
I feel I’m misunderstood on this.
I just said that Penny Kelly is out of any league. She takes things here and there, and almost obviously without experiencing anything at all.
The point is not whether we do have a materialist point of view but if our views are somehow smashed in a coherent view of thinking.
I said that Christianity is not built on a logical frame but after all it’s reasonable. So I would say about Buddhism, etc…
What I’m not willing to accept is some wish wash thinking of people taking second-hand knowledge and selling out as an original view.
Incarnating into torture? Really?
You’re not misunderstood. You admitted, “I never stated that “reincarnation” is not true.” Maybe you would not be misunderstood if you simply said reincarnation is a fact of life.
What is the question? People incarnate into a variety of life situations. You disagree with that?
Reincarnation is true for those who believe in it.
Ther’s no way to fact-check religions unless you’re proven through experience, in this case, meditation. In deep meditation is possible to enquire and discover your answer. And that’s just it, your answer. It doesn’t apply to others.
In fact, there’s no need to talk about it or to make a video talking about it.
Ther’s no way you can convey any existential experience through words.
But some, in history, have tried to do it (or mostly through their friends and disciples) out of compassion for others. And their misery.
That is the root of our commonly known religion (Paul with Christianity, Mahavira with Jainism, Muhammad with Islam, etc…).
They try to convey a personal religious experience and in time they have been constrained in a coherent way of thinking that, obviously, betrays the original meaning (and could not be different).
Now, going back to Penny Kelly, I feel the video offensive. It has nothing to do with Bart’s work on early Christianity.
And it has nothing to do with reincarnation.
Q: Is there a moment when anyone that is willing to reincarnate would say no. And nobody would incarnate? Could that happen?
A: Well, theoretically, yes!
Ahahahaha, come on gimme a break.
janmaru
Reincarnation is true for those who believe in it.
Steefen
Incarnation is true for those who believe it.
I tried your way of thinking and it is erroneous to me.
janmaru
Penny Kelly’s video has nothing to do with Bart’s work on early Christianity.
And it has nothing to do with reincarnation.
Steefen
The book description of Bart’s book Heaven and Hell: A History of the Afterlife asks the question, “what happens when we die.” The second sentence of the Preface that Bart wrote is: “…after I died, I would go to heaven or hell.”
Old Souls: Compelling Evidence from Children Who Remember Past Lives by Tom Shroder
Children Who Remember Previous Lives by Ian Stevenson
Journey of Souls [regarding Life between Lives] by Michael Newton
Penny Kelly
Others
The four people mentioned by name above and many others also discuss “what happens when we die” and they discuss heaven and hell.
We often criticize the notion of eternal damnation as a sentence for a life lived less than, say 120 years.
Reincarnation answers that criticism.
We also discuss a holding place before judgement for heaven or hell.
We often criticize the notion of hell as a place of fire.
Reincarnation into a life of torture could be just punishment/karma.
There is nothing offensive about this thread. janmaru, you have other people with whom to converse.
Do that: converse with other people while you are on my ignoring/adversary list.
I might oppose different ideas but I always respect people.
I participated in the thread and honestly gave my opinion about it.
I said that Penny Kelly’s ideas and Q&A on “reincarnation” were offensive.
Offensive to anyone with a bit of reasoning.
I didn’t say that the post in itself was offensive. Or that your closeness to Penny Kelly’s ideas was not reputable.
Creating an ignoring/adversary list makes me feel young. It remembers me when I was in kindergarten.
I have to confess that I have enough experience in groups and people to understand when the air is poisonous.
Even interactions with the “Big Guy” are quite disappointing. Today he dodged a question on Christianity and white supremacism. And I feel it is an argument on culture, preservation of the past, and at the end on the meaning of History itself.
Luckily I will survive all this since I still have a life.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert