Thanks, Luke!
Yes I totally agree wit you – particularly this:
“Mohamed’s views were likely informed by the pre-Islamic Syriac holy text(s) used by a group of Jewish Christians who were generally considered heterodox at the time.”
Do you know if there has been any scholarly research into this?
Best wishes,
Hassan.
Do you know if there has been any scholarly research into this?
To my knowledge the religious scholars Karl-Heinz Ohlig and Christoph Luxenberg have both discussed the issue to varying degrees in both books and journal articles. Some of their major works(available on Amazon) that analyze the Aramaic influence on Islam include ** you do not have permission to see this link **.
Good to have you here Hassan, I enjoyed your video. Islam seriously needs the kind of workover that Judaism and Christianity have had from objective scholarship. The best overview (as you may know) is Tom Holland’s Islam: the Untold Story, which addresses, among other things, the problem that descriptions of the Prophet’s birthplace in the Qur’an accord do not describe Mecca. The far more likely location is Petra. Holland’s book In the Shadow of the Sword reveals that the stories about Jesus in the Qur’an are the same as folk legends circulating in the middle East in the 7th century CE. No-one really knows who Muhammad was.The Qur’an was compiled decades after his death and Bukhari’s Hadith some 200 years later. It seems that Islam was an attempt by 7th century warlords to unify the Arab tribes with a religion using available material from monotheistic sources. The unintentional consequence was that Islam overran the middle East, north Africa, central Asia, Spain, the Balkans, Indonesia and points east, becoming the world’s second most popular religion.
LukaPNW said
Do you know if there has been any scholarly research into this?
To my knowledge the religious scholars Karl-Heinz Ohlig and Christoph Luxenberg have both discussed the issue to varying degrees in both books and journal articles. Some of their major works(available on Amazon) that analyze the Aramaic influence on Islam include ** you do not have permission to see this link **.
Excellent, thank you!
DirkCampbell said
the problem that descriptions of the Prophet’s birthplace in the Qur’an accord do not describe Mecca. The far more likely location is Petra.
Yes I’ve heard about the Petra argument. As someone brought up with the traditional Islamic narrative it is quite a mind-blowing theory. I wonder though if there is much support for it amongst scholars?
hassanradwan said
DirkCampbell said
the problem that descriptions of the Prophet’s birthplace in the Qur’an accord do not describe Mecca. The far more likely location is Petra.Yes I’ve heard about the Petra argument. As someone brought up with the traditional Islamic narrative it is quite a mind-blowing theory. I wonder though if there is much support for it amongst scholars?
From what i understand there really isn’t and it’s still very much a fringe view. That being said isn’t there some very loose connections in Islam to Zoroastrianism and i do not mean the the whole Torah connection thing after the exile
I mean certain fundamental parts of the theology like for example isn’t it true there is something called the
As-Sirāt which a bridge thinner than a strand of hair and as sharp as the sharpest knife or sword as the last trial for people going into paradise and those who fail burn in hell
which in many seem to be similar to the Chinvat Bridge “bridge of judgement” or “beam-shaped bridge”) or the Bridge of the Requiter in Zoroastrianism is the sifting bridge , which separates the world of the living from the world of the dead. All souls must cross the bridge upon death. The bridge is guarded by two four-eyed dogs. A related theology is that of Yama , the Hindu ruler of Hell who watches the gates of Hell with his two four-eyed dogs.
DirkCampbell said
AztecDragon said
From what i understand there really isn’t and it’s still very much a fringe view.Sources? I’ve given mine! Check out ** you do not have permission to see this link **
LMFAO you do realize his views on this ARE THE FRINGE for the most part, right. If not i really can not help you in any meaningful way.
In fact you could probably compare his views to someone like Ibn Warraq and Robert Spencer and some other scholars even with regards to origins of Islam, the Qur’an and some other facets of Islam
However it should be noted most scholars on this issue , (I’M not sure if mine or yours fall into this category ), are not driven by actual scholarship it seems which they use it as a cover , but blatant and rampant Islamophobia or just plain blind unabashed hatred of Islam which makes there views on it very very hard to accept for pretty much all in that field.
AztecDragon said
hassanradwan said
DirkCampbell said
the problem that descriptions of the Prophet’s birthplace in the Qur’an accord do not describe Mecca. The far more likely location is Petra.Yes I’ve heard about the Petra argument. As someone brought up with the traditional Islamic narrative it is quite a mind-blowing theory. I wonder though if there is much support for it amongst scholars?
for example isn’t it true there is something called the As-Sirāt which a bridge…
Yes it’s true that in Islam there is a Sirat/bridge that everyone must cross to get to paradise and I’ve heard about the same thing in Zoroastrianism. (They also had 5 daily prayers similar to those in Islam)
DirkCampbell said
AztecDragon said
From what i understand there really isn’t and it’s still very much a fringe view.Sources? I’ve given mine! Check out ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Thanks, yes I’m aware of Tom Holland but I was wondering if other recognised scholars had expressed such views.
I don’t dismiss the idea, but I do think there would need to be more peer reviews before it could become a recognised theory.
Hi Hassan,
I actually created my account for this blog because of my interest in this subject. I am a Muslim and had the exact same thoughts as you when hearing Dr. Ehrman’s interviews for his new book. I have thought about the relation of Islam and Christianity for a couple of years. My interest has been on if Islam, as a sect of Christianity, had access to canonized scriptures and reinterpreted them or if they only had access to apocryphal texts. Using the Muslim stories as a source I believe that there was a sect of Christianity active during Muhammad’s life time that held these apocryphal beliefs.
As you know, there is a story of Muhammad visiting his wife’s cousin who is described as a Christian. I wonder then if this person was a member of this sect and influenced what would come to be Muslim views on Christ, hell, and the ideas of a judgement day. Anyways, thanks for the video!
Shade said
My interest has been on if Islam, as a sect of Christianity, had access to canonized scriptures and reinterpreted them or if they only had access to apocryphal texts. Using the Muslim stories as a source I believe that there was a sect of Christianity active during Muhammad’s life time that held these apocryphal beliefs.
Hi Shade,
Yes I have had the same thoughts. Some of the popular Islamic material we were brought up with makes it seem that the pre-Islamic Arabs were totally ignorant of the religious trends going on at the time, but this is simply not true. There were Arab tribes on the borders of the Roman Empire that had converted to Christianity. While tribes on the border the Persian empire had come into contact with Zoroastrian beliefs. There were of course Jewish tribes in the Hijaz and also Christians & Jews to the south in what is now Yemen. Another rather mysterious group of pre-Islamic Arabs are often referred to as Haneefs. They appear to have been strict monotheists who strongly rejected polytheism and associated themselves closely with the prophet Abraham. Muhammad was of course a well travelled merchant who regularly visited Syria. To imagine he would have not come into contact with the zeitgeist of this period is unthinkable.
AztecDragon said
LMFAO you do realize his views on this ARE THE FRINGE for the most part, right. If not i really can not help you in any meaningful way.
In fact you could probably compare his views to someone like Ibn Warraq and Robert Spencer and some other scholars even with regards to origins of Islam, the Qur’an and some other facets of Islam
However it should be noted most scholars on this issue , (I’M not sure if mine or yours fall into this category ), are not driven by actual scholarship it seems which they use it as a cover , but blatant and rampant Islamophobia or just plain blind unabashed hatred of Islam which makes there views on it very very hard to accept for pretty much all in that field.
Well of course it’s a ‘fringe’ view compared to standard Islamic scholarship which unquestioningly accepts the validity of the Qu’ran and the Hadith. Standard Islamic scholars don’t question their sources critically in the way that, for example, Bart Ehrman questions the source material of the Bible. We are on this forum because we appreciate Bart’s work and all the scholarship he draws on. There is nothing Islamophobic in critical scholarship of the Qur’an and the Hadith. It’s just examining the evidence and coming to rational conclusions. Just as Bart is not Christophobic in his examination of the Judaeo-Christian source material, he’s just trying to get at the truth.
So, what is the evidence that Muhammad was born in Mecca? The name is mentioned only once in the Qur’an. More common is the word Becca, meaning the place of weeping. Why would Mecca be the place of weeping? Petra was abandoned after an earthquake, making it a more likely candidate. More importantly, there are no physical correspondences between descriptions in the Qur’an of the city where Muhammad lived and Mecca. But there are a great many correspondences between the Qur’anic descriptions and Petra, as Tom Holland and Dan Gibson show. Lots of Muslims don’t like what they say for obvious reasons and you’ll find many attempts at rebuttal on line. But if you examine these attempts critically you’ll see that they all depend on standard Islamic exegisis. ‘I’m right because my source material is unassailable.’ That’s the kind of position Bart Erhman takes exception to. Examine the source material objectively and see where the evidence leads.
This story made me chuckle. I found it as I was following up info on Islamic textual criticism: Tabari prefaces his early commentary on the Qu’ran illustrating that the precise way to read the verses of the sacred text was not fixed even in the day of the Prophet. Two men disputing a verse in the text asked Ubay ibn Ka’b to mediate, and he disagreed with them, coming up with a third reading. To resolve the question, the three went to Muhammad. He asked first one man to read out the verse, and announced it was correct. He made the same response when the second alternative reading was delivered. He then asked Ubay to provide his own recital, and, on hearing the third version, Muhammad also pronounced it ‘Correct!’. Noting Ubay’s perplexity and inner thoughts, Muhammad then told him, ‘Pray to God for protection from the accursed Satan.’
Yeah you can find it all in the wikipedia page on Hagar. Quite interesting actually. In Exodus Abraham sends Hagar and Ishmael away to wander in the desert of Beersheba which is in modern day Israel. That’s where the angel appears and shows her the well. Then she finds Ishmael an Egyptian wife and the three of them settle in Paran. This is where some confusion arises. Where is Paran? Arabic traditions hold that the wilderness of Paran is, broadly speaking, the Hejaz, which includes Mecca. But The Arab geographer Al-Muqaddasi says that the Red Sea branches into two at the extremity of al-Hijaz at a place called Faran. This would be on a latitude with Sinai, not Mecca. Jewish scripture (1 Kings 11:17-18) states that when Haddad the Edomite fled from Edom to Egypt, he passed through Midian and Paran on the way to Egypt. Well that can’t be Mecca because it’s not on the way to Egypt. Sebeos, the Armenian Bishop and historian, describing the Arab conquest of his time, wrote that the Arabs ‘assembled and came out from Paran’. Which couldn’t have been Sinai. So it’s all a bit vague.
Thanks Dirk,
Regarding Paran, Muslims often say Muhammad was prophesied in Habakkuk 3:3 where they say the “Holy One” is Muhammad and Paran is Mecca.
But the “Holy One” is referring to God not to a man and Paran is linked to Teman (could someone explain what or where Teman is?)
This is the passage and as is the custom of this type of poetry the couplets are just a rewording of each other:
God came from Teman
The Holy One from Mount Paran
His glory covered the heavens and
His praise filled the earth.
His splendor was like the sunrise;
Rays flashed from his hand…
Plague went before him;
Pestilence followed his steps.
He stood, and shook the earth;
He looked, and made the nations tremble.
The ancient mountains crumbled and
The age-old hills collapsed.
DirkCampbell said
Well of course it’s a ‘fringe’ view compared to standard Islamic scholarship which unquestioningly accepts the validity of the Qu’ran and the Hadith. Standard Islamic scholars don’t question their sources critically in the way that, for example, Bart Ehrman questions the source material of the Bible. We are on this forum because we appreciate Bart’s work and all the scholarship he draws on. There is nothing Islamophobic in critical scholarship of the Qur’an and the Hadith. It’s just examining the evidence and coming to rational conclusions. Just as Bart is not Christophobic in his examination of the Judaeo-Christian source material, he’s just trying to get at the truth.
So, what is the evidence that Muhammad was born in Mecca? The name is mentioned only once in the Qur’an. More common is the word Becca, meaning the place of weeping. Why would Mecca be the place of weeping? Petra was abandoned after an earthquake, making it a more likely candidate. More importantly, there are no physical correspondences between descriptions in the Qur’an of the city where Muhammad lived and Mecca. But there are a great many correspondences between the Qur’anic descriptions and Petra, as Tom Holland and Dan Gibson show. Lots of Muslims don’t like what they say for obvious reasons and you’ll find many attempts at rebuttal on line. But if you examine these attempts critically you’ll see that they all depend on standard Islamic exegisis. ‘I’m right because my source material is unassailable.’ That’s the kind of position Bart Erhman takes exception to. Examine the source material objectively and see where the evidence leads.
I think your confusing standard Islamic scholarship in muslim countries in which you can not question anything or you get labelled as apostate be thrown in jail and or killed from the standard scholarship practiced in the west on islam of which there can be slight overlap but there really isn’t perse as while nobody is questioning whether muhammad existed was born in mecca or the fact the hadiths were written hundreds of years later and some other tidbits of his life you can actually question stuff here for the most part and not have the penalty
the problem with the petra and/or the mosque orientation hypothesis while in may have some interesting thoughts adn possibly a basis the 2 people who originally had the basis of this hypothesis Rebecca crone and Micheal cook largely retracted it
not to mention one of there major sources they use as the crutch of there argument came 1000 years AFTER Muhammad’s death not to me mention while Most Muslims believe Mecca and Bakkah are synonyms, but to Muslim scholars there is a distinction: Bakkah refers to the Kaaba and the sacred site immediately surrounding it, while Mecca is the name of the city in which they are both located not to mention it being used as the city of weeping comes from Baca in hebrew which many or man not be valid
not to to mention read this ** you do not have permission to see this link **
I think those two links will help on explaining the flaws and holes in both there scholarship
not to mention while this ** you do not have permission to see this link ** from and Islamic website this rebuttal has really good scholarship in that in point ofut the fact there is are no nebatean loan word while there are roughly 200 from Ethiopian among other tidbit however it also says there is actually no clear evidence either way to know whether its origins were in mecca or petra
the sad thing is though is while i agree with scholarship like this l its largely has become the bastion of Islamophobia mostly for the fact is now wildly used by far right western eurocentric nutcases many of them who may or not be Christian and many of who are drawn to people like Pamella Geller for there own purposes which is what i meant by my prior statement
which actually fundamentally undermines this scholarship all together
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert