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scared of going to hell
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Bgipson

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March 17, 2016 - 12:22 pm

There’s too much confusion I can’t get no relief.

 

About what, askadoodledoo?

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ask21771
22
March 17, 2016 - 12:25 pm

did jesus speak of a literal hell

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Bgipson

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March 17, 2016 - 12:52 pm

ask21771 said
did jesus speak of a literal hell

First there is the question of whether he actually said anything attributed to him. Second. Stephen pointed out that Hell is implied by Apocalypticism, but I think you want to be careful about reading modern ideas back into the early first century. In cases, we might point to (as you have to done to the least of my brothers, you have done to me) there’s something of a contradiction because salvation is said to be achieved without or in spite of deeds. ( conversely, eternal damnation occurs despite good or bad deeds.If that’s the case, then it’s very odd that Jesus is unaware of it. 

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ask21771
24
March 17, 2016 - 2:20 pm

I read the article erhman wrote and it sounds like jesus didn’t

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Bgipson

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March 17, 2016 - 2:57 pm

ask21771 said
I read the article erhman wrote and it sounds like jesus didn’t

Which article was that?

 

And that was pretty much my point

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ask21771
26
March 17, 2016 - 3:03 pm

** you do not have permission to see this link **

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ask21771
27
March 18, 2016 - 9:58 am

i’ve been studying universal salvation and am still unsure if it’s biblical

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Bgipson

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March 18, 2016 - 12:24 pm

ask21771 said
** you do not have permission to see this link **

Yet the article clearly states

 

“For apocalypticists there would be justice.  Not in this life or this age, but in the resurrection, in the age to come.  God would raise all people from the dead, bodily, to give them an eternal reward or an eternal punishment.  No one would escape.  Evil would not have the last word; God would have the last word.  And death would not be the end of the story.

So taught the early Jewish apocalypticists, and so taught Jesus.  The Kingdom of God was soon to appear with the coming of the Son of Man.”

 

Indeed, how could there be justice without reward and punishment?

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Bgipson

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March 18, 2016 - 12:36 pm

ask21771 said
i’ve been studying universal salvation and am still unsure if it’s biblical

Shouldn’t we start with salvation itself. Whether salvation, itself is biblical. After all, Jewish thought, initially has EVERYONE (good or bad) going to Sheol and living a rather dim cold existence.  I don’t see how you can, on the one hand have a deity who is omniscient but doesn’t seem to know about salvation until [what is it 6?]millenia later. Adam and Eve weren’t told that they could achieve salvation, they would simply return to the dust. 

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Judith

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March 18, 2016 - 12:46 pm

spiker said

ask21771 said
i’ve been studying universal salvation and am still unsure if it’s biblical

Shouldn’t we start with salvation itself. Whether salvation, itself is biblical. After all, Jewish thought, initially has EVERYONE (good or bad) going to Sheol and living a rather dim cold existence.  I don’t see how you can, on the one hand have a deity who is omniscient but doesn’t seem to know about salvation until [what is it 6?]millenia later. Adam and Eve weren’t told that they could achieve salvation, they would simply return to the dust. 

Ah, but “Dust thou art, to dust returnest, was not written of the soul.” A Psalm of Life by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow.

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Bgipson

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March 18, 2016 - 1:30 pm

Judith said

Ah, but “Dust thou art, to dust returnest, was not written of the soul.” A Psalm of Life by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow.

Makes sense considering Ancient Jews don’t seem to have believed in a soul, but I still do not see A&E being offered a chance at salvation. 

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Judith

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March 18, 2016 - 1:42 pm

…considering Ancient Jews don’t seem to have believed in a soul… interesting and gives pause – The OT does say man is in the image of God. Is that image the physical attributes of man or individual personality or the essence of each human spirit? As for A&E, I cannot speak to that. No tv! 🙂

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ask21771
33
March 18, 2016 - 2:02 pm

do scholars believe universal salvation is biblical

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Judith

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March 18, 2016 - 3:55 pm

Judith said
…considering Ancient Jews don’t seem to have believed in a soul… interesting and gives pause – The OT does say man is in the image of God. Is that image the physical attributes of man or individual personality or the essence of each human spirit? As for A&E, I cannot speak to that. No tv! 🙂

To further explain/question: The Bible says God made us of dust. Returning to dust (our physical selves) we can understand. But then in Jeremiah 2:5 is this: “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you (speaking of a prophet).” Is there something of us that existed before we were born? Was that the personality of each individual? Then there are scriptures (Job 33:4 for one) about God breathing life into each who is born. Would that be the soul? 

Sorry, ask21771 to interrupt but would appreciate answers if someone knows. 

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Bgipson

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March 18, 2016 - 10:51 pm

A&E is short for Adam and Eve.

As to the question of image. That’s harder to answer because we’re asking what ancient Jews meant by that. However, if we are created in the image of some being, it is likely that we are talking about a creation like a self portrait. 

 

And yea, I considered the breath of life, as it were to be the soul, but are.  we reading modern concepts into ancient judeaism(divine breath as a soul) ? Wouldn’t the breath of life be similar to CPR?

If I save someones life with mouth to mouth, do they then have  two souls? Did they get part of my soul?  I’m guessing divine breath is probably more about the life[oddly genesis literally has God creating life from non life, but fundies will tell you 1.) that is impossible and that 2.)is just Atheist ideology] 

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Bgipson

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March 18, 2016 - 10:54 pm

Ask

 

Im sure that is the case, but youre

going to a lot of trouble to validate a failed vision (Apocalypticism)

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Judith

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March 18, 2016 - 11:27 pm

spiker, Thanks for your reply and the laugh (A&E). It’s obvious I’m over my head here. Do you think we could get Greg back if I leave?

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Bgipson

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March 19, 2016 - 11:29 am

Judith:

 

 I don’t think Greg’s participation depends on your being involved. My answers are pretty speculative. I do not have a shred o evidence, but I have thought about the in his image line a lot.

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Judith

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March 19, 2016 - 11:40 am

Thanks, spiker, but my thought is The Forum has a number of you scholars and those such as myself might “dilute” the seriousness of the discussions. 

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Bgipson

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March 19, 2016 - 12:15 pm

Judith said
Thanks, spiker, but my thought is The Forum has a number of you scholars and those such as myself might “dilute” the seriousness of the discussions. 

Scholars!??? 
Yikes! I for one am a rank amateur. It has taken me some time to achieve that status. The only scholar here is B.D.E (not to be confused with B.E.T 😉  )

The only thing “diluting” the discussion are those who use insinuation, and rhetoric in the place of evidence.The intellectually dishonest (YES MOOSE, that means you) etc.

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