** you do not have permission to see this link **Summary
Judaism, Islam and Christianity and their God(s) may not be real. They may be products of ancient empire scheming.
However Jesus is real and what’s more we have a Gospel with 114 of his teachings still available to this day.
** you do not have permission to see this link **The real gospel from the real Jesus.
I claim the real Gospel of Jesus is the inaccurately named Gospel of Thomas. This collection of 114 Jesus sayings has nothing to do with the spiritual teachings of Thomas. He is just the scribe. From here on I will refer to the ** you do not have permission to see this link **
There are two camps in scholarship when it comes to dating the Gospel of Jesus. ** you do not have permission to see this link **. If the late camp (140AD or later) is correct, then the Gospels of the New Testament(NT) are a source for the Jesus Gospel. If the early camp is correct, and I think it is, then the Gospel of Jesus is a source of parts of the NT Gospels.
A theory called ** you do not have permission to see this link ** of the discovery of the Jesus Gospel in 1945 AD at Nag Hammadi. Q Source suggests there was a list of Jesus sayings that were a source to the NT. This favours the early camp dating position.
The Muslims say that there was a Jesus Gospel. They call it ** you do not have permission to see this link **. I suggest the Injil is both Q source and the Gospel of Jesus (Thomas).
** you do not have permission to see this link **The religious texts must be God inspired and true to every word or they must be manmade with a human agenda. There are no other options.
At least two books of the Bible have been discredited by scholars. Scholars say the Books of Isaiah and Daniel are not completely written by whom they say they were written. Nor were they written when they suggest they were written.
But these scholarly findings fall short. If they are manmade, then who wrote them, when did they write them and why.
** you do not have permission to see this link **Dating the Book of Isaiah and Daniel by Scholars.
** you do not have permission to see this link **Dating Book of Isaiah
Source: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
“ While it is widely accepted that the book of Isaiah is rooted in a historic prophet called Isaiah, who lived in the ** you do not have permission to see this link ** The observations which have led to this are as follows:
- Historical situation → Chapters 40–55 presuppose that Jerusalem has already been destroyed (they are not framed as prophecy) and the Babylonian exile is already in effect – they speak from a present in which the Exile is about to end. Chapters 56–66 assume an even later situation, in which the people are already returned to Jerusalem and the rebuilding of the Temple is already under way.** you do not have permission to see this link **
- Anonymity → Isaiah’s name suddenly stops being used after chapter 39.** you do not have permission to see this link **
- Style → There is a sudden change in style and theology after chapter 40; numerous key words and phrases found in one section are not found in the other.** you do not have permission to see this link **”
Is it possible that it was written around 538 BCE as one body of works with possible multiple authors.
** you do not have permission to see this link **Dating Book of Daniel
Source:** you do not have permission to see this link **
“ The prophecies of Daniel are accurate down to the career of ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Further evidence of the book’s date is in the fact that Daniel is excluded from the Hebrew Bible’s ** you do not have permission to see this link **”
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I suggest that Both Isaiah and Daniel are examples of Post mortem “Prophecy”. It occurs when reports of real past historical events are surrounded by a story that suggests it was written before those historical events. Even though they weren’t. The prophecies of Isaiah and Daniel are two possible examples. Another is the Book of Revelations. The writing actually appears after the events but “says” it was written before the true historical events.
For example, the book of Daniel seems to predict real world events between 538 BCE and 160 BCE when it was written Circa 160BCE after the events had really occurred. Clear example of Post Mortem Prophecy
With the Book of Isaiah, it purports that Isaiah predicts assaults by the Assyrians and Babylonians as Yahweh’s anger against the Jewish captives pre 539BCE when it could easily be Post Mortem “Prophecy” written after 538 BCE Propaganda then promotes the text as “prophecy”.
** you do not have permission to see this link **Who , When and Why?
** you do not have permission to see this link **Who?
We have to go back to 539 B.C.E. to connect the dots.
I look at 5 text events (possible propaganda or fake news) and speculate on the who, when and why questions. Remembering that these texts survived under their ancient empires rule. They could easily be destroyed if the empire chose too. But they don’t.
Also remember that Scholars have confirmed that Both Daniel and Isaiah are manmade.
For anyone interested, there is an opportunity to explore the in between texts of the Old Testament
| Text | Originated -Assumed | Assumed Key sponsor | Near revolt. |
| ** you do not have permission to see this link ** | 539 B.C.E. | Cyrus the Great- Persian Empire | Shortly after Fall of Babylon 539 B.C.E |
| ** you do not have permission to see this link ** | 538 B.C.E | Cyrus the Great – Persian Empire | Shortly after Fall of Babylon 539 B.C.E |
| ** you do not have permission to see this link ** | 160 B.C.E. | Maccabees and Roman Empire | Shortly after Maccabean Revolt 160 B.C.E |
| The ** you do not have permission to see this link ** | Circa 69 – 71 A.D. | Roman Empire – lead architect Nerva for Flavius Dynasty | Shortly after fall of Jerusalem 70 A.D |
| ** you do not have permission to see this link ** | Circa 136 A.D | Roman Empire unkown author | Shortly after ** you do not have permission to see this link ** revolt 135 A.D. |
I say “shortly after” because the key sponsors of the texts were emperors.
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** you do not have permission to see this link **Why and When?
** you do not have permission to see this link **Patterns
Many ancient Leaders over millennia have often used Cult of Personality propaganda techniques , fake religious news, to make leaders appear divine or to have, a least, divine authority from the people’s Gods. This propaganda often sanctioned building works or other reforms and appeared at the end of conquests that saw a change in leader .
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“According to the British Museum, the Cyrus Cylinder reflects a long tradition in Mesopotamia where, from as early as the third millennium BC, kings began their reigns with declarations of reforms.** you do not have permission to see this link **” –
source: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
I suggest Cyrus motivations were control and power, inspired by Mesopotamian propaganda .
- Of the five “religious” texts I looked at they all emerged shortly after conflicts.
The Cyrus cylinder after the ** you do not have permission to see this link ** 539 BCE. - assuming that scholars are right about the dating of Isaiah and Daniel, then bulk of Isaiah was more likely to have originated around 538 BCE after the fall of Babylon. Further, if prophecy was faked by using Post Mortem Prophecy, I argue that the whole of Isaiah originated in 538 BCE. Cyrus has already shown a liking for Mesopotamian Propaganda in the Cyrus Cylinder.
- The book of Isaiah has some similarities to the ** you do not have permission to see this link ** Remember Scholars have cast doubt on Isaiah authorship and Cyrus is mentioned specifically(see below). Easy to create when it’s manmade and you are the sponsor and emperor
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Similarities between Isaiah and the Cyrus Cylinder include.- Mentioning Cyrus favourably to the God figure (both Yahweh and ** you do not have permission to see this link **)
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1 “This is what the LORD says to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him and to strip kings of their armor, to open doors before him so that gates will not be shut:
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13 I will raise up Cyrus in my righteousness: I will make all his ways straight. He will rebuild my city and set my exiles free, but not for a price or reward, says the LORD Almighty.”
- Mentioning Building Works
- see ** you do not have permission to see this link ** Lines 38–45: details of the building activities ordered by Cyrus in Babylon
- ** you do not have permission to see this link ** Your people will rebuild the ancient ruins and will raise up the age-old foundations; you will be called Repairer of Broken Walls, Restorer of Streets with Dwellings.
- Disparaging remarks about previous leaders
- Genealogy (Book of Kings uses the term Holy one of Israel first mentioned in the Book of Isaiah)
** you do not have permission to see this link ** - It also includes the re-invention of ** you do not have permission to see this link ** as the sole God of Judaism
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’I am the First and I am the Last: besides me there is no God’
- This saying could be designed to be like an “eye in the sky” affect.
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22 He “yahweh” sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.
- The book of Daniel originated between 167 BCE , based on ** you do not have permission to see this link **” passage from the Book of Daniel.
Daniel 9:27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week,** you do not have permission to see this link **the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”
It refers to one week and a war. One week is seven years in this context using the Bibles ** you do not have permission to see this link ** dies half way through the battle, 3 and a half years or half a week according to the Jubilee system.
The Roman empire was involved. In 161AD a ** you do not have permission to see this link ** between Rom e and the Jewish peoples was struck.
The book of Daniel would have had a target audience of the Hellenized Jews.
The first time Angel Gabriel is mentioned in the bible is in the Book of Daniel. As this is a manmade text according to Scholars, Angel Gabriel must be a fabrication. All religious texts that use this figure cannot be real.
- The New Testament and the works of Josephus Flavius emerges after the ** you do not have permission to see this link ** for a period that could be aligned to authorship of propaganda perhaps. Namely the New Testament and Works of Josephus.
- ** you do not have permission to see this link **, I say emerges after 136 AD following the third Jewish /Roman conflict (woe)known as the Bar Kokhba revolt . The following quote comes from the book of revelations followed by a quote from the Jewish Talmud. Both relate to a third woe or War.
Revelations 14:20 – The grapes were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress in a stream about 180 miles long and as high as a horse’s bridle.
The Jerusalem Talmud relates that the number of dead in Betar was enormous, that the Romans “went on killing until their horses were submerged in blood to their nostrils.”** you do not have permission to see this link **
The Talmud entry was made about Betar, a factor in theBar Kokhba revolt. The Bar Kokhba revolt was the third of three “Woes” or wars. The three woes are another parallel to the book of revelations.The target audience would have been the Jewish populations and possibly the Christians, reminding them how powerful their God is.
- Muslim connection. The ** you do not have permission to see this link ** of the Bar Kokhba revolt saw several conflicts between the Jews and the roman Empire up to 629AD after which Muslims carried on the battle with the Roman Empire
Because he’s dogmatic and fundamentalist, but has very little understanding of theology.
Honestly, if you could read that screed all the way through, my hat’s off to you.
Religion existed long before anyone could write. All these idiots tend to forget that.
And why shouldn’t religion have a human agenda? It’s about the relationship between humans and the divine, and if there were no human agenda, there’d be no point. At the simplest level it’s a quid pro quo–at the highest level, it’s about self-understanding. (Something the person who started this post will never achieve.)
What religious fundamentalists and their atheist counterparts fail to get is, most of us aren’t so numbingly literal-minded.
I differ from Godspell in the idea that religion existed long before x, y, or z. I somewhat agree with the author of Before Religion that the modern notion of religion, a personal experience with your soul and a deity or source of power, did not exist for the most part in ancient times.
Robert makes a fine point that you begin with quite a dogmatic approach. This means you might be contorting what you find to fit your beginning statement. I actually started with your same POV about 3 years ago. Through asking a lot of questions I hoped would yield answers in line with my original agenda (religion is man made and purposed to enslave), I have really learned a lot.
First, I would ask why you think the Cyrus scroll establishes a religion? My understanding is that it does quite the opposite. IT announces Cyrus’s intention that each people in his Empire be allowed to follow the habits and ways (religion?) of their own peoples. That is why Isaiah speaks of Cyrus in chapter 44.
I have researched Judaism for a bit now, trying to prove it was created. What I have found is that when the habits and ways (religion?) of the inhabitants of Jerusalem were in danger of being subsumed by Hellenism, a great violence broke out. Various writers wrote many things about who Judeans were, what there ancestors did, and where Judeans fit into the history of the world. As later Judeans tried to fit into upper society along with the Greeks in the cosmopolitan cities, they had to defend themselves as an ancient ethnicity. Josephus makes a great effort at this. By the time of Josephus we have some of the more ancient writings (or those perceived to be ancient) of Judeans collected. We call this the canon of the Hebrew Bible. ITs the basis for verifying the Judeans as ancient and chosen. ITs not a “religious” collection, initially, as much as it is a ethnic certification of belonging. So in this paragraph I have written a process whereby a people, defending their ways and habits, simply became a religion.
There is speculation that Serapis was intentionally created to help the Greek overlords of Egypt connect with their Egyptian peoples. This is probably the most likely candidate if there ever was one for a god or religion to be consciously invented for the sake of civilization getting along. Still, I have only heard of it as a hypothesis. No evidence so far.
Might as well argue there was no such thing as philosophy before the Greeks. Philosophy began when a hominid asked him or herself a question not directly related to food, shelter, reproduction, or defense. Religion and philosophy grew up together, and of course they evolved (or devolved) as we did. But with no religion or philosophy (both of which involve believing things that can’t be proven) there is no humanity.
Preliterate tribal societies had priests and priestesses, shamans, witch doctors. They had the concept that the entire tribal society is united through its worship of certain gods, and through the rituals that are practiced throughout the year, that create a connection to nature, which is perceived as godlike itself.
If this isn’t religion, what is it? And without it, we probably wouldn’t have survived, which I suppose might have been doing the planet a favor in the long run. But I’d like to think we’re not entirely irredeemable.
There are so many definitions of religion. Looking at religion today, we find a supernatural aspect that defies our five senses, our statistical and scientific notions, and thus requires faith. Its hard to compare that to El Sky, El Mountain, or El Thunder. When we think of gods we think of Thanos and Thor. Its really hard to say they had the same concepts with mountain battling thunder.
I would suggest that it is so hard to compare because they are not the same thing. One involves religion and the other is both proto-religion (there is no word in Hebrew to translate to religion) and proto-philosophy as well as proto-mythology. It is simply observations of what they can see and some things (Shoel) they cannot see but have concluded might exist.
I also think you cannot fail to include the advent and dissemination of writing as essential to a building block to more intricate ideas. I may be in the wrong place to talk about that need though, given the support “oral tradition” gets in these forums.
Imagination (the ability to lie?) may be foundational to humans becoming more than their ape cousins. But I am not sure of religion per se.
Ancient pre-literate people had named gods. I think you’re looking too exclusively at the Middle East. Simply because it was the birthplace three very important modern religions, doesn’t mean it was the birthplace of all religion. Hunter-gatherers the world over had a wide variety of deities, not to mention heroes and tricksters, and they told many stories, passed on through oral tradition. We obviously can’t find the originals today, though anthropologists can collect stories told in the recent past.
The Celts were somewhere in-between–pastoral cattle herders, who had writing, but felt it was sacrilege to write down stories about the gods. It was only because Christianity became established in Ireland that some of their stories were written down, with easily discernible Christian glosses, and it’s quite different from anything else we have a record of. But it’s religion, unquestionably.
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You said. First, I would ask why you think the Cyrus scroll establishes a religion? My understanding is that it does quite the opposite. IT announces Cyrus’s intention that each people in his Empire be allowed to follow the habits and ways (religion?) of their own peoples.
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The surviving inscription on the Cyrus Cylinder consists of 45 lines of text written in Akkadian cuneiform script. The first 35 lines are on fragment “A” and the remainder are on fragment “B”.** you do not have permission to see this link ** A number of lines at the start and end of the text are too badly damaged for more than a few words to be legible.
The text is written in an extremely formulaic style that can be divided into six distinct parts:
Extract from the Cyrus Cylinder (lines 15–21), giving the genealogy of Cyrus and an account of his capture of Babylon in 539 BC (** you do not have permission to see this link **, 1884).
- Lines 1–19: an introduction reviling ** you do not have permission to see this link **, the previous king of Babylon, and associating Cyrus with the god Marduk;
- Lines 20–22: detailing Cyrus’s royal titles and genealogy, and his peaceful entry to Babylon;
- Lines 22–34: a commendation of Cyrus’s policy of restoring Babylon;
- Lines 34–35: a prayer to Marduk on behalf of Cyrus and his son ** you do not have permission to see this link **;
- Lines 36–37: a declaration that Cyrus has enabled the people to live in peace and has increased the offerings made to the gods;
- Lines 38–45: details of the building activities ordered by Cyrus in Babylon.** you do not have permission to see this link **
“That is why Isaiah speaks of Cyrus in chapter 44.”
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I believe Isaiah is a separate text that targets the People of Judea. Cyrus appearance is by design not holy intervention and it doesn’t mention any hidden noble agenda. Neither does the Cyrus Cylinder. It is Babylon ( and Marduk) centric.
I believe that The Book of Isaiah is the birth place of modern Judaism
I only equate Jesus with the ** you do not have permission to see this link **
The golden rule.
25. Jesus said, “Love your friends like your own soul, protect them like the pupil of your eye.”
26. Jesus said, “You see the sliver in your friend’s eye, but you don’t see the timber in your own eye. When you take the timber out of your own eye, then you will see well enough to remove the sliver from your friend’s eye.”
7. Jesus said, “Lucky is the lion that the human will eat, so that the lion becomes human. And foul is the human that the lion will eat, and the lion still will become human.”
Substitute lion with ego and eat with consume.
8. And he said, “The person is like a wise fisherman who cast his net into the sea and drew it up from the sea full of little fish. Among them the wise fisherman discovered a fine large fish. He threw all the little fish back into the sea, and easily chose the large fish. Anyone here with two good ears had better listen!”
I had just finished reading a translation of the Cyrus cylinder before coming here. It is reminiscent of the language of the Deuteronomist, scolding false religious practices and recognizing The Most High as the One who called him to take Babylon.
The more I learn about the ANE, the more I understand how the Bible came to be.
As far as Isaiah being a starting point for Judaism, I would wonder what you would define as Judaism. Clearly Isaiah rails against a written Law and finds that people are ignoring the Law of God (written on our hearts?). Still, its not like he does anything to rectify the situation. I think the Deuteronomist, writing Dt and a book about the kings, may have unintentionally kicked off what eventually becomes Judaism.
Still, Isaiah is outstanding for his desire for the poor to be treated better and for linking inequality to God’s wrath. He also recognizes that his God is far superior to the kings who want to call themselves gods. These are written for posterity by a (prince/priest/prophet?) of Jerusalem and quoted often by Judeans including Jesus. His input definitely informs what becomes Judaism.
Ok, You talked me into it.
From Robert
But I’m asking why you think this assumption must be correct:
“The religious texts must be God inspired and true to every word or they must be manmade with a human agenda. There are no other options.”
Why couldn’t the authors of Q or of the gospel of Thomas also have a human agenda, even if they were also partly inspired by God or whom they believed to be God?
Reply:
The scholarly dating , see above article, of The books of Isaiah and Daniel means they were not written when they suggested they were written nor by whom they were written (Daniel and Isaiah). So, if the analysis by scholars is correct, these are mammade with a human agenda.
I agree that the Gospel of Jesus (Thomas) had a human agenda and that Jesus had a different interpretation of the living father.
3. Jesus said, “If your leaders say to you, ‘Look, the (Father’s) kingdom is in the sky,’ then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, ‘It is in the sea,’ then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father’s) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.
When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty.”
I don’t want to step on Robert’s response, but can I ask–if they were written at the time they were supposed to, and by the people said to have written them–wouldn’t they still be manmade with a human agenda? Isn’t everything ever written manmade with a human agenda?
And does a single book of any religious text (Jewish, Christian, whatever) claim to have been written directly by any divine being? Granted, the Ten Commandments are supposed to have been handed down by Yahweh on Sinai, but the text saying that happened is clearly supposed to have been written down by a human being.
Muhammad is said to be divinely inspired to write the Quran, but we’re not told he talked to Allah directly, but to the angel Gabriel, and I don’t believe all of the Quran is said to be divinely dictated–it’s still Muhammad writing, and you only have to read the history of the Arabian peninsula in that period to know that without doubt he had human agendas. (There is some niggling little degree of doubt among scholars as to whether Muhammad wrote every word of the text we now have, but that is not a subject under our purview here).
So what are you looking for here? Absolute purity, utter certainty?
These things are not for mortal clay.
rob Beasley
Judaism, Islam and Christianity and their God(s) may not be real. They may be products of ancient empire scheming.
Steefen
Please explain how Christianity and the God in Christianity is not real. Please explain how Christianity may be a product of ancient empire scheming.
rob beasley
However Jesus is real
Steefen
When was Jesus’ ministry? When did he die? How did he die? Why did he die? Where did he live?
rob beasley
and what’s more we have a Gospel with 114 of his teachings still available to this day. … I claim the real Gospel of Jesus is the inaccurately named Gospel of Thomas [which should rightly be known as the Gospel of Jesus].
Steefen
The Gospel of Jesus on weed.
After reading the other gospels for decades, when I came to the Gospel of Thomas, it came across like the gospels after a teenager had been smoking marijuana–over the summer before Freshman year in college.
Godspel “Isn’t everything ever written manmade with a human agenda? “
I agree. However both Books of Isaiah and Daniel (at least) are supposed to offer prophecies of future events. A god made event.Yet both books have been discredited in terms of the dating and authorship according to the majority of scholars ( see op.).
The one I find most interesting is the Book of Daniel. Prof Dale Martin claims it is authored circa 164 BC. But if we add the Seventy Sevens passage
7He shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall make sacrifice and offering cease; and in their place shall be an abomination that desolates, until the decreed end is poured out upon the desolator.
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One week in Jubillee counting is 7 years . One and half weeks is 3 1/2 Years. These are the durations of the Maccabean Revlolt and the passing of ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Now we can say that the new author date is post 160 BC the end of the Maccabean Revolt because the author new these events.
This means the 160 BC author had access to every “prediction”, as they were part of the historical knowledge.
Man made with a human agenda ( I suggest Roman) not God given prophecy from circa 538BC.
Godspel
If the Book of Daniel is man made fake, which I suggest it is, it is the first time Angel Gabriel is mentioned in the Bible.. Fake Book of Daniel, Fake Angel Gabriel.
I am looking to share my findings. These things are for mortal clay. For it is the truth that sets us free
Steefen
Please explain how Christianity and the God in Christianity is not real. Please explain how Christianity may be a product of ancient empire scheming.
Read the op.. In summary, Cyrus the Great created the Cyrus cylinder to control the Babylonians. I mean how did he know how to communicate with Marduk. And is Marduk real ?
The one year later he pulled a similar trick with the Jewish peoples with The Book of Isaiah. Using Yahweh the war God of the Israelites
Empires and high priests a common phenomena throughout history.
Then The Book of Daniel. DIscredited by most scholars. Aided by the Roman Empire. The empire was in town at the end of the Maccabean revolt. 161 AD
The Roman empire(Nerva) created the New Testament and Works of Josephus Flavius 69 AD
The Book of Revelations created by the Roman Empire 135 AD
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
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