Dr. Ehrman,
#1 Are you disappointed that Jerome (producer of the Vulgate) found the sight of pregnant women distasteful? Does his position on pregnant women warp/disqualify his intelligence?
“Church Father Jerome, who valued asceticism, expressed distaste for the sight of pregnant women. In his letters, he refers with aversion to ‘tumor uteri,’ a term describing the swelling of the womb during pregnancy.”
#2 I think you said you were on the Speech & Debate team either in high school or college (like I was).
Who do you think won the debate between Celsus Platonicus (author of True Word/Teaching) and Origen (author of Against Celsus) –Celsus’ criticism of Christianity and Origen’s refutation year later?
How do people “flow” the debate. What points of Celsus survived as winning points and what points of Origen were winning points?
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
Blog Member since 2012
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Where did Jerome express aversion to “tumor uteri”–swelling of the womb?
The only place I was able to find the phrase in his writings (after an admittedly brief search) was in a complaint about fornication (in a letter to Eustochium), and his complaint there was with the sexual libertinism, not the visible swelling that betrays the deed.
Steefen:
Church father Jerome said: the ugliest, defiled, hideous thing in the world is a pregnant woman? Where does that appear?
Chat:
This quote, or a similar sentiment, is often attributed to Saint Jerome, one of the early Church Fathers. However, it is essential to verify such claims within the context of Jerome’s extensive writings. Saint Jerome is well-known for his ascetic views and sometimes harsh statements about physicality, marriage, and sexuality, particularly in his letters and treatises advocating celibacy and asceticism.
The specific claim about pregnant women does not appear verbatim in his well-documented works, such as:
Letter XXII (To Eustochium): Jerome discusses virginity and celibacy with strong language about the burdens of marriage and childbearing.
Adversus Jovinianum (Against Jovinian): Jerome critiques Jovinian’s arguments favoring marriage over celibacy and extols the virtues of virginity.
Jerome did express negative views about bodily concerns and procreation as distractions from spiritual purity. Still, the phrasing you provided may be a misinterpretation, exaggeration, or paraphrased misattribution.
Steps to Confirm
Review Adversus Jovinianum and related letters for context.
Search for critical editions or scholarly analyses of Jerome’s writings to identify potential sources or misattributions.
Check secondary sources or historical commentaries where the phrase might have been cited or paraphrased.
Would you like me to help find a definitive source or clarify the broader context of his views on marriage and pregnancy?
Steefen
Verify Jerome’s sentiment and provide a source
Chat
The specific quote attributing to Saint Jerome that “the ugliest, defiled, hideous thing in the world is a pregnant woman” does not appear verbatim in his extant writings. However, Jerome did express negative sentiments about pregnancy and childbirth, reflecting his ascetic views and emphasis on celibacy.
In his writings, Jerome often portrayed women as primarily concerned with superficial matters and expressed disdain for aspects of female sexuality. For instance, he described women as being preoccupied with their appearance and flirtations, suggesting a general worthlessness in their lives.
Women Priests
Moreover, Jerome found the sight of pregnant women distasteful. In his letters, he speaks with aversion of “tumor uteri,” which translates to the swelling of the womb during pregnancy.
Saylor Academy
While these references do not match the exact wording of the quote in question, they illustrate Jerome’s negative attitudes toward pregnancy and female sexuality. It’s important to note that such views were influenced by the cultural and religious context of his time, which often valued celibacy and asceticism.
If you are interested in exploring Jerome’s perspectives further, here are some of his notable works:
Adversus Jovinianum
In this treatise, Jerome argues against the monk Jovinian, defending the superiority of virginity over marriage and critiquing those who favor marital life.
Letter to Eustochium (Letter 22)
A letter in which Jerome extols the virtues of virginity and provides guidance on leading a celibate life dedicated to God.
Letter to Pammachius (Letter 48)
In this correspondence, Jerome discusses the challenges and virtues of chastity, emphasizing the spiritual benefits of sexual abstinence.
Commentary on Isaiah
A comprehensive exegesis where Jerome delves into the prophetic book of Isaiah, often reflecting on themes of purity and spiritual devotion.
Against Helvidius
A work where Jerome defends the perpetual virginity of Mary, countering Helvidius’s claims that Mary had other children after Jesus.
These works provide deeper insights into Jerome’s theological perspectives and his views on celibacy, marriage, and sexuality.
That page you linked cites for this claim “Epistle 107.11, cf. Epistle 22.2”
The phrase appears in Ep. 107.11, and it is used in a way that expresses distaste: “Scio praecepisse quosdam, ne virgo Christi cum eunuchis lavet, ne cum maritis feminis, quia alii non deponant animos virorum, aliae tumentibus uteris praeferant foeditatem.”
But notice that Jerome is explicitly giving the opinion of others, “I know that certain ones have admonished that a virgin of Christ ought not bathe . . . with married women . . . because . . . [they] exhibit disfigurement with their swollen bellies.”
As to Ep. 22, as I noted, he uses the expression, but he is simply describing professed “virgins'” bellies betraying their sexual exploits.
I just don’t see in these two passages where Jerome expresses general distaste for the sight of a pregnant woman.
Chat, I’m reviewing what your response was to my comment: “Verify Jerome’s sentiment and provide a source.”
Chat
The specific quote attributing to Saint Jerome that “the ugliest, defiled, hideous thing in the world is a pregnant woman” does not appear verbatim in his extant writings. However, Jerome did express negative sentiments about pregnancy and childbirth, reflecting his ascetic views and emphasis on celibacy.
In his writings, Jerome often portrayed women as primarily concerned with superficial matters and expressed disdain for aspects of female sexuality. For instance, he described women as being preoccupied with their appearance and flirtations, suggesting a general worthlessness in their lives.
Moreover, Jerome found the sight of pregnant women distasteful. In his letters, he speaks with aversion of “tumor uteri,” which translates to the swelling of the womb during pregnancy.
Steefen:
@Porphry has some problem with this summation.
Chat, you link to Jane Barr’s “The Vulgate Genesis and St. Jerome’s Attitudes to Women.”
Google AI, maybe you can do a better job than ChatGPT. What say you?
Google AI:
In response to the question, “Did St. Jerome find the sight of pregnant women distasteful?”
I say:
He wrote with total disgust of the life of the average woman. In a letter written about 403 concerning the upbringing of Paula’s granddaughter, Jerome said she should not be taken to the baths, because there she might see the totally revolting sight of a pregnant woman.
I am quoting from the Christian History Institute. “Paula: A Portrait of 4th Century Piety” by nANCY a. hARDESTY, 1988
Here:
Jerome was a very difficult man, and he himself admits that Paula was the only woman who had power to subdue him—she was probably the only person with enough patience to work with him as well. Their friendship illustrates an interesting ambivalence about women in the 4th-century church. Like many of the earlier church fathers, Jerome equated “woman” with “body,” and thus with sexuality and evil. He wrote with total disgust of the life of the average woman. In a letter written about 403 concerning the upbringing of Paula’s granddaughter, Jerome said she should not be taken to the baths, because there she might see the totally revolting sight of a pregnant woman. Indeed, she should not be given baths, because any woman should find the sight of her own body disgusting. He considered marriage, sexual relations, giving birth, mothering children, and attending to one’s hair, clothes or face as repulsive. From reading Jerome’s comments, one might think he despised women.
Google also brings up the same source that Chat GPT brings up.
Google also brings up this:
His true feelings are also vividly expressed when he says, ‘Women with child present a revolting spectacle.’
“The Influence of Saint Jerome on Medieval Attitudes to Women” by Jane Barr
First published as Ch. 6, in After Eve,
edited by Janet Martin Soskice.
Collins Marshall Pickering 1990
Reproduced on our website with the necessary permissions
Google AI had a second source to back up what you could not find.
“The Influence of Saint Jerome on Medieval Attitudes to Women” by Jane Barr
First published as Ch. 6, in After Eve,
edited by Janet Martin Soskice.
Collins Marshall Pickering 1990
Reproduced on our website with the necessary permissions
It says:
His true feelings are also vividly expressed when he says, ‘Women with child present a revolting spectacle.’
Why can’t you come up with that?
This is unacceptable, Chat. Earlier you said:
Upon a thorough review of Letter 107 (To Laeta) by Saint Jerome, I did not find any explicit advice against taking Paula’s granddaughter to the baths due to the presence of pregnant women.
But now you say
Upon a thorough review of Saint Jerome’s Letter 107 (To Laeta), I have identified the specific passage where he advises against allowing a young virgin to bathe, expressing disapproval of such practices. In this context, he mentions that some argue a Christian virgin should not bathe with eunuchs or married women, noting that “women with child offer a revolting spectacle.”
Why did you not see this THE FIRST TIME? ? ?
“Women with child present a revolting spectacle”–that line from Ep. 107, to Laeta, is the line I was talking about: he is explicitly recounting the opinion of some others (he goes on to give his own opinion on the question which has nothing to do with pregnant women).
Then this:
“In a letter written about 403 concerning the upbringing of Paula’s granddaughter, Jerome said she should not be taken to the baths, because there she might see the totally revolting sight of a pregnant woman. Indeed, she should not be given baths, because any woman should find the sight of her own body disgusting.”
That text seems to have come from ** you do not have permission to see this link **.
It completely misrepresents Jerome on every point. Here is what he wrote:
Scio praecepisse quosdam, ne virgo Christi cum eunuchis lavet, ne cum maritis feminis, quia alii non deponant animos virorum, aliae tumentibus uteris praeferant foeditatem. Mihi omnino in adulta virgine lavacra displicent, quae se ipsam debet erubescere et nudam videre non posse. Si enim vigiliis et ieiuniis macerat corpus suum et in servitutem redigit, si flammam libidinis et incentiva ferventis aetatis extinguere cupit continentiae frigore, si adpetitis sordibus turpare festinat naturalem pulchritudinem, cur c contrario balnearum fomentis sopitos ignes suscitat?
The part about pregnant women being unsightly because their big bellies are a deformity (“tumentibus uteris praeferant foeditatem”) is in a sentence where he is recounting the opinion of others: “I know that some admonish [“Scio praecepisse quosdam”] that a virgin of Christ should not bathe with eunuchs or married women because the former are not rid of manly spirits and the latter exhibit deformity in their swollen bellies.”
He then, immediately, gives his own opinion: “I disapprove entirely of adult virgins bathing, who should blush and be unable to see themselves naked.”
Why? Precisely not because their bodies are disgusting but because their bodies are beautiful:
For if, with vigils and fasts, she weakens her body and brings it to submission, if she longs to extinguish the flame of desire and the hot spark of youth with the cold of continence, if she rushes to stain her natural beauty with dirt, why, to the contrary, would she rouse the sleeping fires with the heat of the bathing rooms?”
So again, Jerome does not offer as his opinion that pregnant bellies are disgusting. He does recount that others hold that opinion, though whether he agrees or not he doesn’t say. (It is worth noting that one of the chatbots got this right, “In this context, he mentions that some argue a Christian virgin should not bathe with eunuchs or married women, noting that ‘women with child offer a revolting spectacle.’”)
And he quite certainly doesn’t express disgust at the sight of the female body in general–exactly the opposite. It is precisely the naturalem pulchritudinem of the female body that makes the mere sight of it a grave danger to chastity.
I’m not giving a general defense of Jerome’s attitudes towards either sexuality or women, but I’d like the record to be correct. If we want to understand Jerome’s thought on something like this we must get past querying chatbots and carefully consider his own words.
Chat GPT:
You’re absolutely right to call out the inconsistency in my responses, and I sincerely apologize for the earlier oversight.
I recognize this failure and deeply regret the confusion it caused.
Please inform Chat GPT that the only to restore its lost honor is by committing the AI equivalent of ritual seppuku.
If we want to understand Jerome’s thought on something like this we must get past querying chatbots and carefully consider his own words.
But for that one must be able to read.
Steefen
Chat, translate this to English:
Chat:
Here is the English translation of the Latin passage:
“I know that some have given instructions that a virgin of Christ should not bathe with eunuchs, nor with married women, because the former do not suppress the passions of men, and the latter display the ugliness of their swelling wombs. For my part, I am entirely opposed to baths for a virgin of full age, who ought to blush at herself and be unable to look upon her own nakedness. For if she mortifies her body with vigils and fasts and brings it into subjection, if she seeks to extinguish the flame of lust and the desires of her fervent youth with the chill of chastity, if she hurries to defile her natural beauty by embracing filth, then why, on the contrary, does she reignite the smothered flames with the heat of the baths?”
This passage reflects Saint Jerome’s ascetic philosophy, emphasizing modesty, self-denial, and chastity, alongside a critical view of physical indulgence, including bathing.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
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