JAS said

CEJ said

Agreed.  In the 1800s, the Millerites believed Jesus was gonna return on a date certain in 1844.  It didn’t happen.  Their individual responses to that “Great Disappointment” varied widely.  But for most, it was not a return to normalcy.  Not a few merely set new dates for Christ’s return.  Others decided he did return on the expected date but did so invisibly.  Many joined the Shakers, a fringe religious group that abstained from sex and built furniture to take their minds of that deprivation. 

The Millerites will be proven correct . . . eventually . . . just not the right date. We simply have to be patient (as well as our descendants, and hopefully the descendants of our descendants of our descendants, etc.)

  

JAS said

CEJ said

Agreed.  In the 1800s, the Millerites believed Jesus was gonna return on a date certain in 1844.  It didn’t happen.  Their individual responses to that “Great Disappointment” varied widely.  But for most, it was not a return to normalcy.  Not a few merely set new dates for Christ’s return.  Others decided he did return on the expected date but did so invisibly.  Many joined the Shakers, a fringe religious group that abstained from sex and built furniture to take their minds of that deprivation. 

 

  

They were right, but it will happen in year 1844 of the Islamic Calendar, our 2410!

Robert said

mb1980 said

Robert said

I don’t think Paul believed in an eternal hell. His eschatology was probably more like that of Jesus. All of the wicked powers would be destroyed by God.

Probably he didn’t believe in eternal conscious torment but he preached imminent destruction; when members of the churches started dying before the arrival of the Kingdom he – or his disciples – had to find some way to comfort the righteous and to punish the “wicked” before the final judgement. The parable described by “Luke” where the poor Lazarus waits in the bosom of Abraham and the rich man is be tormented by flames is reminiscent of the myth of ** you do not have permission to see this link ** described by Plato in the last pages of the Republic, where the souls experience temporary punishment or bliss. Some however could not be released from underground. Murderers, tyrants and other non-political criminals were doomed to remain there forever.

Many Greek and Hellenized Jews probably knew this tale.

I’m more inclined to see it as a parable composed by Luke than by Paul or one of Paul’s direct disciples (which I doubt Luke was). If you’re interested, Bart has discussed this parable a few time here on the blog (** you do not have permission to see this link **) and in his book on heaven an hell. If I recall correctly, he does not interpret it literally as if Luke believed in eternal torment; rather it’s a parable with a moral lesson.

  

Thanks. I have read the book about afterlife (it was translated in Italian) written by prof. Ehrman.
Probably “Luke” was not a direct disciple but someone active at least one generation later, in the 80s or even later. The tale of Setne and Si-Osire has some similarities and could have influenced the writer (or a suchlike tale circulating in the ** you do not have permission to see this link ** Talmudic tradition), but Plato’s Republic was known by people with Hellenistic culture and the author was well trained in Greek*, so I wonder if he nodded at that too. Plato did not believe literally to the tale of Er and his purpose was to give a moral lesson.

*According to some scholars the author of Acts imitated Euripides’ ** you do not have permission to see this link **.