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What was Christianity like before Paul
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Ignatius

5 Posts
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July 21, 2018 - 11:42 am

So if Paul didn’t write his first letter until 49 what was Christian doctrine and practice like before that? Wouldn’t this period (30-45 let’s say) represent true Christianity and Paul’s later contribution was heretical? We know that Paul converted about around 33 AD. I have read that Paul was converted by early Christians outside of Jerusalem who probably incorporated pagan elements into their beliefs. We know that most Jews did not accept the idea that Jesus was the Messiah so Paul’s revolutionary move was to evangelize non-Jews putting him in conflict with James and Peter. So was Paul’s primary motivation to win? We know he was driven and capable of radical psychotic religious violence. Was justification by faith and the idea of rebirth and salvation and eternal life a hybrid of pagan Jewish thought? 
Was Paul essentially a heretic?

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Kitsune

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July 22, 2018 - 11:28 pm

I don’t know historically speaking how much we can establish about Christianity before Paul.  But based on the fact that matters relating to Mosaic Law, the status of Gentiles were settled only after Jesus’ earthly ministry, and the fact that his closest followers still expected the restoration of Israel, it’s probably safe to say that whatever the very early movement looked like, it was fundamentally a Jewish movement. I usually describe Jesus as a Jewish reformer. 

I think one can argue that Paul’s influence challenged the beliefs and identity of Jesus’ earliest followers, but I tend to view Paul as the eschatological accelerator. Jews had always thought that Gentiles would fund righteousness through Israel’s repentance. Paul reversed the order. He perhaps thought he was preparing non-Jews to meet the Jewish God in the Jewish End of Days. 

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isal_m_a

16 Posts
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July 23, 2018 - 8:16 am

i think early christianity is Jewish Christian movement, Ebionite may resemble this

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Kitsune

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July 25, 2018 - 12:19 am

I agree the Ebionites probably reflected an early stage of the movement, but I wonder what made them “Christian”?  Apart from believing Jesus to be Messiah, they were essentially Jews like other Jews of their time.  I would even argue that the Ebionites, and more precisely the community based in Jerusalem whose members included Jesus’ family and apostles, likely reflected most accurately the core of Jesus’ teaching. They personally heard Jesus speak. They remained Jews as they did not understand Jesus to have taught them not to continue in Judaism. The Christian identity I think developed outside of this community. As Acts tells us, the first people to be called Christian were in Antioch, not Jerusalem. 

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prestonp
5
July 25, 2018 - 6:33 am

Ignatius said
So if Paul didn’t write his first letter until 49 what was Christian doctrine and practice like before that? Wouldn’t this period (30-45 let’s say) represent true Christianity and Paul’s later contribution was heretical? We know that Paul converted about around 33 AD. I have read that Paul was converted by early Christians outside of Jerusalem who probably incorporated pagan elements into their beliefs. We know that most Jews did not accept the idea that Jesus was the Messiah so Paul’s revolutionary move was to evangelize non-Jews putting him in conflict with James and Peter. So was Paul’s primary motivation to win? We know he was driven and capable of radical psychotic religious violence. Was justification by faith and the idea of rebirth and salvation and eternal life a hybrid of pagan Jewish thought? 
Was Paul essentially a heretic?  

No

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Pattylt

32 Posts
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July 25, 2018 - 12:11 pm

According to most (but probably not all) Jewish sects, yes. 

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Robert
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July 25, 2018 - 6:39 pm
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prestonp
8
July 28, 2018 - 12:46 am

“We know he was driven and capable of radical psychotic religious violence.”

He was? Paul was?

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isal_m_a

16 Posts
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August 1, 2018 - 5:19 pm

People who claim to follow Jesus, what we call Christianity is not Monolithic in first place, each group have their own Gospel

Ebionites may resemble early christianity as competitor for Orthodoxy, but also some of Ebionites may believe Docetism, believe Jesus is Messiah and Crucifixion is Illusion

At least we can have these 2 types:

1. Jewish Christianity Messianic Movement, not all may believe on crucifixion, some of them believe Jesus even not crucifed, crucifixion is illusion, some kind of Docetism

2. Pauline Christianity, This theology is widespread among gentiles

Jewish Christian may focus on Life of Jesus, follow Torah

Pauline focus more on death and ressurection of Jesus, abandon Torah

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Bartleby

13 Posts
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October 12, 2018 - 2:29 am

To learn some differences and similarities of the Nazarite or Nazoraean religion, spelled Nazarene or from Nazareth that, in part, became Christianity, look up “Mandaeans” or “Mandaeanism”. The Mandaeans are the descendants of John the Baptist. John the Baptist (Yahia Yohanna) is their most important prophet. The Mandaeans are called living Gnostics or the last Gnostics.

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