Steefen said
gmatthews said
Steefen said
Could he really write a history of without writing about one of the most famous men of Galilee?The implication of your question is that Justus SHOULD have written something about “one of the most famous men of Galilee”. I’m asking you why you think he should have. Just because they were from the area of Galilee you think Justus should have written about Jesus, but there could be any number of reasons why he wouldn’t have. You sound like you’re exasperated that it didn’t happen. Maybe Jesus just wasn’t all that big of a deal.
In my video, I give evidence that components of Jesus were
King Izates, son of Queen Helena who gave iconic pieces of gold to the Temple. Big deal.
King Izates, who along with his mother, saved Judea from famine. Big deal.
King Izates, who was called “only begotten son” by his father. Big deal.
King Izates, whose father was a personal friend of Octavian – Augustus. Big deal. (His father’s wisdom appears in the gospel “store your riches in heaven.”
Is this theory some sort of variation on the theory of Ralph Ellis? Or are you Ralph Ellis?
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Jesus, King of Edessa: Ralph Ellis….on amazon.
** you do not have permission to see this link **
** you do not have permission to see this link **
maryhelena said
Steefen said
gmatthews said
Steefen said
Could he really write a history of without writing about one of the most famous men of Galilee?The implication of your question is that Justus SHOULD have written something about “one of the most famous men of Galilee”. I’m asking you why you think he should have. Just because they were from the area of Galilee you think Justus should have written about Jesus, but there could be any number of reasons why he wouldn’t have. You sound like you’re exasperated that it didn’t happen. Maybe Jesus just wasn’t all that big of a deal.
In my video, I give evidence that components of Jesus were
King Izates, son of Queen Helena who gave iconic pieces of gold to the Temple. Big deal.
King Izates, who along with his mother, saved Judea from famine. Big deal.
King Izates, who was called “only begotten son” by his father. Big deal.
King Izates, whose father was a personal friend of Octavian – Augustus. Big deal. (His father’s wisdom appears in the gospel “store your riches in heaven.”
Is this theory some sort of variation on the theory of Ralph Ellis? Or are you Ralph Ellis?
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Jesus, King of Edessa: Ralph Ellis….on amazon.
** you do not have permission to see this link **
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Queen Helena and King Izaates appear in the works of Josephus.
As a person interested in the accounts of Josephus, I am interested in reading works where those works bring clarity.
Ralph Ellis has tried to understand what is the place Adiabene–Queen Helena was Queen Helena of Adiabene.
If Tom Verenna has tried to understand the place Adiabene, your links could be interesting.
I am not Ralph Ellis.
What Josephus has written about Queen Helena is important. I’m glad Ralph Ellis made an effort to give this great woman of history some thought.
Steefen said
maryhelena said
Steefen said
gmatthews said
Steefen said
Could he really write a history of without writing about one of the most famous men of Galilee?The implication of your question is that Justus SHOULD have written something about “one of the most famous men of Galilee”. I’m asking you why you think he should have. Just because they were from the area of Galilee you think Justus should have written about Jesus, but there could be any number of reasons why he wouldn’t have. You sound like you’re exasperated that it didn’t happen. Maybe Jesus just wasn’t all that big of a deal.
In my video, I give evidence that components of Jesus were
King Izates, son of Queen Helena who gave iconic pieces of gold to the Temple. Big deal.
King Izates, who along with his mother, saved Judea from famine. Big deal.
King Izates, who was called “only begotten son” by his father. Big deal.
King Izates, whose father was a personal friend of Octavian – Augustus. Big deal. (His father’s wisdom appears in the gospel “store your riches in heaven.”
Is this theory some sort of variation on the theory of Ralph Ellis? Or are you Ralph Ellis?
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Jesus, King of Edessa: Ralph Ellis….on amazon.
** you do not have permission to see this link **
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Queen Helena and King Izaates appear in the works of Josephus.
Yep. However, do you have any independent, outside of Josephus, historical evidence for King Izaates?
As a person interested in the accounts of Josephus, I am interested in reading works where those works bring clarity.
If that is so you would not want to miss reading these three books: Daniel Schwartz: Reading the First Century; Rebecca Gray: Prophetic Figures in Late Second Temple Jewish Palestine – The Evidence from Josephus; Robert Karl Gnuse: Dreams and Dream Reports in the Writing of Josephus, A Traditio-Historical Analysis. (I don’t have this last book but there has been a good view of it on google books…..)
Ralph Ellis has tried to understand what is the place Adiabene–Queen Helena was Queen Helena of Adiabene.
** you do not have permission to see this link **
If Tom Verenna has tried to understand the place Adiabene, your links could be interesting
If Tom Verenna is not your cup of tea – try this link:
King Jesus of Edessa by Ralph Ellis – Er…What?
** you do not have permission to see this link **
I am not Ralph Ellis.
OK, I’ll take your word for that……it would be interesting though to know what your connection with Ralph Ellis is – since your theory looks to be indebted to his…..and the man himself has been harassing Tom Verenna because of his negative reviews of Ralph Ellis’s theory.
** you do not have permission to see this link **
What Josephus has written about Queen Helena is important. I’m glad Ralph Ellis made an effort to give this great woman of history some thought.
Everything that Josephus wrote is important. The big deal however is to distinguish between his historical writing – which has to be independently verified – and his own ‘take’ on his people’s history.
Robert Karl Gnuse: ”As a priest Josephus is a custodian of his people’s traditions, and by continuing that history in the Jewish War and subsequently by rewriting it in his Antiquities, he is a prophet. For Josephus prophets and historians preserve the past and predict the future, and he has picked up the mantle of creating prophetic writings. Perhaps, in his own mind he is the first since the canonical prophets to generate inspired historiography….”
Daniel Schwartz review of Rebecca Gray’s book: Prophetic Figures in Late Second Temple Jewish Palestine: The Evidence from Josephus.
(The Jewish Quarterly Review: New Series, Vol. 87, No.1/2)
”……It should henceforth be very difficult to claim that this first-century Jewish writer who referred so often to contemporary prophets and prophecy did not mean it, to ignore the fact that he did, or to refuse to draw the relevant conclusions for ancient Judaism and Christianity”.
Mary Helena,
Queen Helena is established archeologically with a palace and a tomb before Josephus further established her historically in his history books.
Josephus goes on to speak not just about her son but siblings and family tree and their involvement with the Jewish Revolt.
You wrote: The big deal however is to distinguish between his historical writing – which has to be independently verified – and his own ‘take’ on his people’s history.
You doubt she had a son who helped her obtain and distribute food during the famine of 47?
You doubt King Monobazus and Queen Helena produced at least two sons (princes), at least one of whom became a king after their father died?
You raise doubt about the existence of her sons. Let’s hear your case.
Steefen said
Your first link from Tom was a complete waste of time.Tom adds nothing to the issues I already have with Ralph Ellis and takes away nothing the Ralph Ellis has earned.
I noticed you made no reply to my question re what is your connection to Ralph Ellis?
Steefen said
Mary Helena,Queen Helena is established archeologically with a palace and a tomb before Josephus further established her historically in his history books.
Josephus goes on to speak not just about her son but siblings and family tree and their involvement with the Jewish Revolt.
You wrote: The big deal however is to distinguish between his historical writing – which has to be independently verified – and his own ‘take’ on his people’s history.
You doubt she had a son who helped her obtain and distribute food during the famine of 47?
You doubt King Monobazus and Queen Helena produced at least two sons (princes), at least one of whom became a king after their father died?
You raise doubt about the existence of her sons. Let’s hear your case.
You side-stepped my specific question: Do you have any independent, outside of Josephus, historical evidence for King Izaates? A simple answer will suffice – yes or no?
maryhelena said
Steefen said
Your first link from Tom was a complete waste of time.Tom adds nothing to the issues I already have with Ralph Ellis and takes away nothing the Ralph Ellis has earned.
I noticed you made no reply to my question re what is your connection to Ralph Ellis?
I read books that he wrote.
maryhelena said
Steefen said
Mary Helena,Queen Helena is established archeologically with a palace and a tomb before Josephus further established her historically in his history books.
Josephus goes on to speak not just about her son but siblings and family tree and their involvement with the Jewish Revolt.
You wrote: The big deal however is to distinguish between his historical writing – which has to be independently verified – and his own ‘take’ on his people’s history.
You doubt she had a son who helped her obtain and distribute food during the famine of 47?
You doubt King Monobazus and Queen Helena produced at least two sons (princes), at least one of whom became a king after their father died?
You raise doubt about the existence of her sons. Let’s hear your case.
You side-stepped my specific question: Do you have any independent, outside of Josephus, historical evidence for King Izaates? A simple answer will suffice – yes or no?
Evidence for the family of Queen Helena is sufficiently established. You haven’t made a provocative assertion to warrant further attention.
A person more important than Izaates is Manu VI in this cast of royals.
Abgar V Ukkama bar Ma’nu (Abgarus of Edessa) (4 BC–AD 7)
Ma’nu IV bar Ma’nu (AD 7–13)
Abgar V Ukkama bar Ma’nu (13–50)
Ma’nu V bar Abgar (50–57)
Ma’nu VI bar Abgar (57–71)
Abgar VI bar Ma’nu (71–91)
Sanatruk (91–109)
Abgar VII bar Ezad (109–116)
Osroene, also spelled Osrohene and Osrhoene (Ancient Greek: Ὀσροηνή; Classical Syriac: ܡܠܟܘܬܐ ܕܒܝܬ ܐܘܪܗܝ Malkūṯā d-Bayt ʿŌrhai) and sometimes known by the name of its capital city, Edessa (modern Şanlıurfa, Turkey), was a historical Neo-Assyrian kingdom located in Upper Mesopotamia, [1] which enjoyed semi-autonomy to complete independence from the years of 132 BC to AD 244.[2][3] It was a Syriac-speaking kingdom.[4]
Osroene, or Edessa, acquired independence from the collapsing Seleucid Empire through a dynasty of the nomadic Nabatean tribe called Orrhoei from 136 BC. The name Osroene is derived from Osroes of Orhai, a Nabatean malka who in 120 BC wrested control of this region from the Seleucids in Syria.[5] Most of the kings of Osroene are called Abgar or Manu who settled in urban centers.[6] Under its Nabatean dynasties, Osroëne became increasingly influenced by Syriac-Assyrian culture and was a centre of national reaction against Hellenism. By the 5th century, Edessa had become the headquarters of Syriac literature and learning. In 608, Osroëne was taken by the Sāsānid Khosrow II, and in 638 it fell to the Muslims.
The kingdom’s area, the upper course of the Euphrates …
# # #
If you have reason to think that when Josephus spoke of help from beyond the Euphrates, he was not talking about Manu royalty, let us know.
Jesus, Em-Manu-El, is Izaates and Manu VI, the former for his devotion to Judaism, the latter for providing military support for El and the people of El and for trying to save Jerusalem from the Romans, for the sake of the God of Israel.
Steefen said
maryhelena said
Steefen said
Mary Helena,Queen Helena is established archeologically with a palace and a tomb before Josephus further established her historically in his history books.
Josephus goes on to speak not just about her son but siblings and family tree and their involvement with the Jewish Revolt.
You wrote: The big deal however is to distinguish between his historical writing – which has to be independently verified – and his own ‘take’ on his people’s history.
You doubt she had a son who helped her obtain and distribute food during the famine of 47?
You doubt King Monobazus and Queen Helena produced at least two sons (princes), at least one of whom became a king after their father died?
You raise doubt about the existence of her sons. Let’s hear your case.
You side-stepped my specific question: Do you have any independent, outside of Josephus, historical evidence for King Izaates? A simple answer will suffice – yes or no?
Evidence for the family of Queen Helena is sufficiently established. You haven’t made a provocative assertion to warrant further attention.
I asked for historical evidence for the existence of King Izates. Looks like, to me, that you don’t have any! Why then should anyone take the theory of Ralph Ellis seriously? You and he are building castles on sand. The first wave of questioning and your theory is a wash.
A person more important than Izaates is Manu VI in this cast of royals.
Why would anyone want to take this further when you can’t supply historical evidence to support a fundamental claim of this theory? No historical evidence for King Izates and your theory does not get off the ground….
Ralph Ellis: ”And when tracking the history of that same infant within the many chronicles of Josephus Flavius, it was apparent that he grew up to become King Izas of Adiabene in these texts. And so we at last knew who (King) Jesus was – he was King Izas, a minor prince and king of a land called Adiabene.King Izas had no city, no palace, no mosaic images, no records, and not even a contemporary coin to his name. And where was this mythical land called Adiabene? It certainly did not sound like the location in Iraq to which it was ascribed. Thus King Izas was merely a phantom of literature, from the not entirely reliable quicksilver-quill of Josephus Flavius; and as such he could be dismissed by academics as a literary apparition, created by Josephus for his own nefarious purposes”.** you do not have permission to see this link **Whatever the purpose of Josephus in creating/recording a story about Queen Helena of Adiabene and her son Izates was – he would probably be turning in his grave to hear that Ralph Ellis has carted Queen Helena and Izates off to Edessa…
I asked for historical evidence for the existence of King Izates. Looks like, to me, that you don’t have any! Why then should anyone take the theory of Ralph Ellis seriously? You and he are building castles on sand. The first wave of questioning and your theory is a wash.
# # #
My interest is in Josephus’ accounts and I’m happy with that.
Josephus’ works, contributions to helping us understand the 1st century of Israel is well established, far from building castles on sand.
Second, to me, Ralph is making a case. You see it as a theory. As a judge of his book, King Jesus, and his book Jesus, King of Edessa, I flow the points he put forward and judge them. Many of his points are worth raising. Many of his points are informative. Many of his points are a good read of Josephus’ works, bringing rock solid clarity to the Works of Josephus.
maryhelena said:
I asked for historical evidence for the existence of King Izates. Looks like, to me, that you don’t have any! Why then should anyone take the theory of Ralph Ellis seriously? You and he are building castles on sand. The first wave of questioning and your theory is a wash.Steefen:
# # #
My interest is in Josephus’ accounts and I’m happy with that.
Josephus’ works, contributions to helping us understand the 1st century of Israel is well established, far from building castles on sand.
Second, to me, Ralph is making a case. You see it as a theory. As a judge of his book, King Jesus, and his book Jesus, King of Edessa, I flow the points he put forward and judge them. Many of his points are worth raising. Many of his points are informative. Many of his points are a good read of Josephus’ works, bringing rock solid clarity to the Works of Josephus.
‘….rock solid clarity to the Works of Josephus’?
I have raised one issue, just one issue, regarding the Josephus figure of Izates, asking you to support your theory, and that of Ralph Ellis, regarding Izates:
Ralph Ellis: ”And when tracking the history of that same infant within the many chronicles of Josephus Flavius, it was apparent that he grew up to become King Izas of Adiabene in these texts. And so we at last knew who (King) Jesus was – he was King Izas, a minor prince and king of a land called Adiabene.
You were unable to supply historical evidence for this figure. And you want to claim that Ralph Ellis has ‘rock solid clarity to the Work of Josephus’!!
That there is no historical evidence for Izates does not mean that this Josephan figure did not exist. What it does mean is that one should not be building speculative theories on a figure in an ancient source whose existence cannot be historically verified.
If a historical theory does not have a foothold in reality – if it has no historical substance – then, indeed, that theory is building on sand. It’s nothing more than speculation upon speculation. Playing the *if* game – if such and such happened then such and such can be build upon it, can follow on from it – might well stretch ones imagination but it won’t benefit ones historical research.
Steefen said
There is no if or speculation about Queen Helena being a mother and there being descendants from the King Monobazus – Queen Helena union.
Evading the question once again……
I realize you have a book to sell and answering the question in the negative is not to your favor. I know its very hard to face the reality that the theory of Ralph Ellis has no historical foundation i.e. there is no historical evidence for the Josephan figure of Izates. I also notice that right now you are the top poster on this forum – the poster with the most posts to his name. You therefore have a vested interested not only in selling your book but also in your reputation on this forum. Consequently, rather than acknowledging the obvious – no historical evidence for the Josephan figure of Izates – you continue to side-step the question.
I have not raised, in exchanges with you, any issue re Queen Helena and King Monobazus – they could have had a dozen or more children for all anybody knows – the issue that I raised with you concerns Izates. It is this figure that is central to your theory and that of Ralph Ellis. It is this figure that I asked you to provide historical evidence for. You did not provide such evidence – you cannot provide such evidence.
Ralph Ellis: ”And when tracking the history of that same infant within the many chronicles of Josephus Flavius, it was apparent that he grew up to become King Izas of Adiabene in these texts. And so we at last knew who (King) Jesus was – he was King Izas, a minor prince and king of a land called Adiabene.
maryhelena said
Steefen said
There is no if or speculation about Queen Helena being a mother and there being descendants from the King Monobazus – Queen Helena union.Evading the question once again……
I realize you have a book to sell and answering the question in the negative is not to your favor. I know its very hard to face the reality that the theory of Ralph Ellis has no historical foundation i.e. there is no historical evidence for the Josephan figure of Izates. I also notice that right now you are the top poster on this forum – the poster with the most posts to his name. You therefore have a vested interested not only in selling your book but also in your reputation on this forum. Consequently, rather than acknowledging the obvious – no historical evidence for the Josephan figure of Izates – you continue to side-step the question.
I have not raised, in exchanges with you, any issue re Queen Helena and King Monobazus – they could have had a dozen or more children for all anybody knows – the issue that I raised with you concerns Izates. It is this figure that is central to your theory and that of Ralph Ellis. It is this figure that I asked you to provide historical evidence for. You did not provide such evidence – you cannot provide such evidence.
Ralph Ellis: ”And when tracking the history of that same infant within the many chronicles of Josephus Flavius, it was apparent that he grew up to become King Izas of Adiabene in these texts. And so we at last knew who (King) Jesus was – he was King Izas, a minor prince and king of a land called Adiabene.
Again, you are not adding value to this conversation. Any person reading the works of Josephus comes across his accounts about Queen Helena and King Monobazus which includes the birth of his son, Izaates. You have a problem with the account only when the child born is named Izaates.
You write: I have not raised any issue re: Queen Helena and King Monobazus – they could have had a dozen or more children.
You have not communicated what in Josephus’ account about this particular child from birth through the end of his life that raises a flag for you.
Let me provide you some guidance: quote someone else other than Ralph Ellis about your issue with Izaates.
“It is this figure, Izates, that is central to your theory and that of Ralph Ellis.” The content of your posts do not indicate you have watched my 2 hour, 44 minute video presentation.
I probably will stop entertaining your comments because you do not know what is central to my presentation and you are not providing cause to doubt there was a famine in Israel for which Queen Helena and at least one of her offspring distributed food. Second, you have not provided cause to doubt that Queen Helena converted to Judaism.
Third, the account in Josephus is that Queen Helena converted to Judaism, at least one of her offspring converted to Judaism. We have two generations of proselytes. At the time of the Jewish Revolt, her offspring and her grandchildren sided against Rome. If you have something against these accounts, they will be considered.
Steefen said
maryhelena said
Steefen said
There is no if or speculation about Queen Helena being a mother and there being descendants from the King Monobazus – Queen Helena union.Evading the question once again……
I realize you have a book to sell and answering the question in the negative is not to your favor. I know its very hard to face the reality that the theory of Ralph Ellis has no historical foundation i.e. there is no historical evidence for the Josephan figure of Izates. I also notice that right now you are the top poster on this forum – the poster with the most posts to his name. You therefore have a vested interested not only in selling your book but also in your reputation on this forum. Consequently, rather than acknowledging the obvious – no historical evidence for the Josephan figure of Izates – you continue to side-step the question.
I have not raised, in exchanges with you, any issue re Queen Helena and King Monobazus – they could have had a dozen or more children for all anybody knows – the issue that I raised with you concerns Izates. It is this figure that is central to your theory and that of Ralph Ellis. It is this figure that I asked you to provide historical evidence for. You did not provide such evidence – you cannot provide such evidence.
Ralph Ellis: ”And when tracking the history of that same infant within the many chronicles of Josephus Flavius, it was apparent that he grew up to become King Izas of Adiabene in these texts. And so we at last knew who (King) Jesus was – he was King Izas, a minor prince and king of a land called Adiabene.
Again, you are not adding value to this conversation. Any person reading the works of Josephus comes across his accounts about Queen Helena and King Monobazus which includes the birth of his son, Izaates. You have a problem with the account only when the child born is named Izaates.
You write: I have not raised any issue re: Queen Helena and King Monobazus – they could have had a dozen or more children.
You have not communicated what in Josephus’ account about this particular child from birth through the end of his life that raises a flag for you.
Steefen – what Josephus wrote is not in dispute. What is in dispute is Ralph Ellis’ interpretation of what Josephus wrote. i.e. Josephus mentioned a figure by the name of Izates. Ralph Ellis writes that this Josephan figure is (King) Jesus.
Ralph Ellis: ”And when tracking the history of that same infant within the many chronicles of Josephus Flavius, it was apparent that he grew up to become King Izas of Adiabene in these texts. And so we at last knew who (King) Jesus was – he was King Izas, a minor prince and king of a land called Adiabene.
Once one does that i.e. seeks to identify the Josephan figure of Izates with (King) Jesus – then one has to be able to demonstrate the very first step ie. provide historical evidence that this Josephan figure is historical. You have failed to do this. Ralph Ellis is building a theory upon speculation not historical reality. Without historical evidence for Izates then speculating that this figure was (King) Jesus has no value whatsoever for any historical research into the NT.
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