How did the cult of Jesus Christ gain so much traction after the death of its leader? Why did that cult make it big, and not any number of other cults? I’m mainly thinking about the period within a generation or two of Jesus’ death. Beyond the popular understanding of Jesus being resurrected and exalted, what other unique conditions were present after the death of Jesus that allowed his legacy to continue and grow? Would you rate the extension of Jesus’ salvation to both Jews and gentiles as an important factor to this end? Perhaps the continuously regressing point of Jesus’ exaltation (in Christological terms) aided in reinforcing the gravity of his legacy as time went by and his stories spread? What else?
I am essentially asking, what did Jesus and his followers do that David Koresh and his following failed to accomplish (operating in an environment with no religious freedom at that)?
Also, was it mainly Jesus’ eleven remaining disciples that did the legwork of spreading the word?
Thanks!
Elias
How did the cult of Jesus Christ gain so much traction after the death of its leader?
Why did that cult make it big, and not any number of other cults?
I’m mainly thinking about the period within a generation or two of Jesus’ death.
Beyond the popular understanding of Jesus being resurrected and exalted, what other unique conditions were present after the death of Jesus that allowed his legacy to continue and grow?
Would you rate the extension of Jesus’ salvation to both Jews and gentiles as an important factor to this end?
Perhaps the continuously regressing point of Jesus’ exaltation (in Christological terms) aided in reinforcing the gravity of his legacy as time went by and his stories spread?
What else?
Also, was it mainly Jesus’ eleven remaining disciples that did the legwork of spreading the word?
Thanks!
Steefen
author of The Greatest Bible Study in Historical Accuracy
The religion around a non-violent Messiah, Christianity, made it big because it stands in contrast to militant messianism.
Militant messianism played a factor in Jews being a problem for Rome.
The gospel of Mark appears on the scene at the beginning of the Jewish revolt against Rome. In the aftermath, three additional gospels were written, probably as Roman propaganda, again, to give language to what Romans wanted from Jewish messianism (no disturbances).
The quick answer I usually give myself and other people about why Christianity “made it big” is that Jesus had good PR people after his crucifixion. That is of course oversimplified but essentially true. Starting with Paul and his realization (conversion vision and belief) that “Jesus died for ours sins” and that through him “we can have everlasting life”. This, along with John’s “for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son” are really compelling “feel good” statements that sway many people into belief. Also, Matthew’s long list of prophesy fulfillment’s often sway people who may otherwise be skeptical. If we just had Mark and Luke’s gospels, Christianity would never have “made it big”.
I don’t think any other conditions were so unique in the time of Jesus, except that the Roman Empire allowed lots of travel and communication across large areas so that word could spread about a new religion. Mostly Christianity spread because it has a “feel good” message that cannot be disproven (how do you disprove everlasting life?) with lots of stories of miracles and prophesy fulfillment to back it up. Plus the exclusiveness and missionary (spread the Good News!) tendency of Christianity helped. The closest parallel is Islam. Why was Islam able to spread and flourish? Many of the same answers.
The one question is a no-brainer. If Jesus’s salvation was just for Jews Christianity would have died a long time ago, or been limited to very few people.
We hear almost nothing about most of the 11 disciples so it seems obvious that many of them played no role. Peter and James seem to have played the biggest role in “spreading the word” of the people that actually knew Jesus, otherwise it was Paul and others who were recruited later but really did most of the work.
Sorry Steefen but I don’t think Jesus’s “contrast to militant Jewish messianism” has anything whatsoever to do with the spread of Christianity.
If I were to start a brand new religion today, I would use as a basis some older spiritual tradition, perhaps some Native American belief with a tradition of loving and supporting gods (get away from monotheism for contrast). I would greatly fill in the story based on my own direct communication with these gods and preach of a highly hopeful current life and afterlife. I would need to make up some believable prophesies and demonstrate some miracles (con-jobs really) to show supernatural backup. And I would be careful not to espouse something that would be demonstrably false. This may be tricky in these days of instant world-wide communication and fact-checkers, but then again fact-checkers are often not believed by many people when they contradict what someone really wants to believe. And there you have the basis for Christianity “making it big”.
mreichert
Jesus, after his crucifixion, had good PR people [Paul, John the Evangelist, and Matthew].
Starting with Paul and his realization (conversion vision and belief) that “Jesus died for ours sins” and that through him “we can have everlasting life”.
This along with John’s “for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son” are really compelling “feel good” statements that sway many people into belief.
Steefen
Jesus does not only appear in the Gospels and the Letters of Paul but also in the historical works of Josephus.
The Hebrew God gave his son to be betrayed by Jews and crucified by Romans.
The Hebrew God also gave his city and his Temple in AD 70. What did we get for those second and third gems?
mreichert
Also, Matthew’s long list of prophesy fulfillment’s often sway people who may otherwise be skeptical.
Steefen
You are talking about this:
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Let’s look at the first one
Matthew 1:22 – The apostle cited Isaiah 7:14 and declared that the supernatural conception of Mary, as a virgin with whom Joseph had not been intimate, was that which fulfilled what the Lord had spoken “through the prophet” in foretelling the nature of Jesus’ birth.
That prophecy was limited, it was not open ended for fulfillment hundreds of years later.
You are in error. Please read the two pamphlets by Thomas Paine entitled Age of Reason (parts one and two).
mreichert
I don’t think any other conditions were so unique in the time of Jesus, except that the Roman Empire allowed lots of travel and communication across large areas so that word could spread about a new religion. Mostly Christianity spread because it has a “feel good” message that cannot be disproved (how do you disprove everlasting life?) with lots of stories of miracles and prophesy fulfillment to back it up. Plus the exclusiveness and missionary (spread the Good News!) tendency of Christianity helped.
Steefen
The time of Jesus would be his life until the time of his prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem.
In that time frame the Jews attacked a Roman legion, had civil wars, started a revolt, had rebels taking over Israel and Judah, underwent famine, had at least two of their high priests killed by rebels from Idumea, had Rome come in to stop the disturbances, lost their Temple, and had their city destroyed.
You are in error.
mreichert
I don’t think Jesus’s “contrast to militant Jewish messianism” has anything whatsoever to do with the spread of Christianity.
Steefen
A call for nonviolence had nothing whatsoever to do with the spread of Christianity after violence led to an attack on a Roman legion, a violent civil war, a violent revolution attempt, the death of a Jesus from Galilee and his mariners during the battle of Galilee?
You are in error.
Aaron Hernandez had no drugs in his system when he killed himself in his prison cell on April 19, and “John 3:16” was written in “a substance consistent with blood” on the wall, authorities said Thursday.
Those new details were contained in a five-page report on the death of Hernandez, a former New England Patriots star and convicted killer found hanging in his cell early on the morning of April 19 at Souza-Baranowski Correctional Facility in Shirley.
The report reiterated details released previously, including that Hernandez had the same Bible citation written in ink on his forehead, as well as “a large circular blood mark” on each of his feet when correction officers found him in his single cell.
The report also said cardboard had been shoved into the door tracks to prevent it from opening and there was “a large amount of shampoo on the floor, which made it very slippery.” Hernandez was discovered naked as he hung from a bedsheet.
State Police Trooper James J. Foley also wrote in the report that Hernandez’s blood “came back negative for all substances tested to include synthetic cannabinoids.”
In the King James Bible, John 3:16 reads, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
No details were released about the three letters found in Hernandez’s cell at the time of his death. The Globe has reported previously that two were addressed to his fiance and 4-year-old daughter.
He was serving a life sentence for the murder of Odin Lloyd in 2013 but had been acquitted days earlier of a double murder in Boston in 2012.
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Well Steefen, seems like we are not quite on the same page as far as why Christianity “made it big” but I’m not sure why. I’m not sure what the point of your latest post is except that passages like John 3:16 hold a lot of meaning for many people. I think we agree on that but I’m not sure.
Back to your previous post. Yes the name of Jesus shows up in Josephus but I don’t know what that has to do with anything. Josephus certainly didn’t have anything to do with Christianity making it big, nothing like the much more compelling words of John and Paul. And what does the sacking of Jerusalem and the Temple have to with Christianity? What are we supposed to “get for those second and third gems?”
And the point of Matthew and prophesy fulfillment is not that these prophesies stand up to Reason, just that many people BELIEVE that the prophesies were fulfilled. It is belief that gets people to convert to and stay with Christianity, not a deep examination of the validity of the prophesies. You cannot tell me that Christians as a whole do not actually believe that prophesies have not been fulfilled. I can go to several relatives of mine right now and have them disagree with you. And it seems nothing I or you would say would change their minds, even if I was inclined to try.
Overall you seem to think that the destruction of the Temple etc. played a big part in the initial spread, and continued popularity?, of the Christian faith. It would take some very convincing arguments to sway me that direction, something you have not provided yet. The New Testament says nothing about the Jewish revolt of CE 70 (not that I know of anyway) and most Christians know little if anything about said revolt. And yet they are Christians anyway. How can that be if said revolt was so important to the spread of Christianity?
A man believed John 3:16 would save him from his two sins:
a) killing another man so his wife would not know he, the husband, was bisexual, and
b) killing himself.
The pictures show he had attained some success in life and more importantly (even without that success) the pictures put a face and a body to the life that was lost.
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
John 3:16
First, the Parable of the Wicked Tenants does not tell us that the Land Owner (God, Giver of the Promised Land) needed to give his son as a sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins and so the souls of the world would have everlasting life in heaven or in everlasting reincarnations, or both.
Second, the life of the Son, Jesus was taken. The souls of the world get everlasting life.
The life of the Temple was taken, what did the souls of the world get for that?
The life of the city Jerusalem was taken by civil war destruction and by the destruction that came with a revolt, put down,, what did the souls of the world get for that?
The Hebrew God had 1) His Son, 2) His Temple, and 3) His Promised Land. In two out of three cases the souls of the world do not get anything of value for that loss. In one of of three cases the souls of the world do not get anything of tangible value in this world; and, they probably do not get anything of longer duration in the afterlife.
Aaron Hernandez has told us he believed his body and his soul would perish, the former by his suicide and the latter due to the two grave sins he committed in his life. Brother Hernandez has also told us that he believed his soul would not perish because of his testimony of faith in John 3:16. As Brother Hernandez hung on his dying cross, believing in Jesus, he turned to Jesus and asked Jesus to remember him when Jesus comes into his kingdom.
Brother Hernandez was remorseful and THAT pulls on the strings of Grace, Mercy, and Soul Salvation. Then, John 3:16 is just empty words save the remorse that gives it substance to attract Grace, Mercy, and Soul Salvation.
mreichert
Yes the name of Jesus shows up in Josephus but I don’t know what that has to do with anything.
Steefen
= = =
“Testimonium Flavianum”
and the Two Subsequent Passages
in The Antiquities of the Jews
by Josephus
** you do not have permission to see this link **
= = =
mreichert
Josephus certainly didn’t have anything to do with Christianity making it big, nothing like the much more compelling words of John and Paul.
Steefen
Josephus, as Emperor Vespasian’s historian and as Emperor Titus’ historian for the Jewish Civil War and Jewish Revolt had more access to the emperors than the author of the Gospel According to John. Paul, a separate person or Josephus writing as Paul is not identified by Suetonius.
Both emperors were members of the Quindecimviri Sacris Faciundis (the college of 15 men responsible for overseeing new gods and religions within the Roman Empire). Did the 15 influential men likely go to Josephus or John or Paul about the Jesus movement growing out of Judaism? Who would have been their subject matter expert but their own imperial historian, Josephus?
Furthermore there is direct involvement of emperor and imperial historians on the subject of the Star Prophecy. Christians may attribute it to Jesus but the historians attribute it to Emperor Vespasian. In a historical fiction, Jesus is a stand in for Vespasian, Titus, and even Julius Caesar.
Christianity makes it big in Rome, so all the major players in Rome, the emperors, the Quindecimviri Sacris Faciundis, and the historians allowed it to happen, especially since it was a message of non-violence in the times of the Jewish Civil War, famine, Jewish Revolt, Jews vs. the cult of Serapis, the Kitos War, and the Bar Kokhba Revolt.
Huh??? Steefen, I don’t even know what you are talking about any more. Well over a billion people today worship Jesus as God (or Son of God or whatever) because “historians attribute (the Star Prophecy) to Emperor Vespasian”? What the heck is the Star Prophecy and what does it have to do with anything? The entire last reply makes no sense. If you want to convince anyone of your thesis you need to describe it more clearly.
And about Aaron Hernandez, how can you possibly know what he believed and what motivated him to do what he did. The best you can do is speculate…
mreichert said
Huh??? Steefen, I don’t even know what you are talking about any more. Well over a billion people today worship Jesus as God (or Son of God or whatever) because “historians attribute (the Star Prophecy) to Emperor Vespasian”? What the heck is the Star Prophecy and what does it have to do with anything?
You asked about “But the historians attribute it Emperor Vespasian.” The historical accuracy in Christianity does not get a Grade A score. Many Christians prefer to be Biblicists and not see Christianity in its historical context.
The historians who attributed the Star Prophecy / Star of Bethlehem Prophecy to Vespasian are Suetonius, Tacitus, and Josephus.
First, what is the Star Prophecy / Star of Bethlehem Prophecy?
What is the Star Prophecy / Star of Bethlehem Prophecy?
But now that I am about to go to my own people [the Israelites], let me first warn you what this people [the Israelites] will do to your people [the Moabites] in the days to come.
Then Balaam gave voice to his oracle: the utterance of Balaam, son of Beor, the utterance of the man whose eye is true,
The utterance of one who hears what God says, and know what the Most High knows, of one who sees what the Almighty sees, enraptured and with eyes unveiled.
I see him, though not now; I behold him, though not near: a star shall advance from Jacob, and a staff shall rise from Israel that shall smite the brows of Moab and the skulls of all the Shuthites
until Edom is dispossessed and no fugitive is left in Seir. Israel shall do valiantly and Jacob shall overcome his foes.
Numbers 24: 14-19
Suetonius
There had spread over all the Orient an old and established belief that it was fated at that time for a man coming from Judaea to rule the world. This prediction, referring to the emperor of Rome [Vespasian, after putting down the Jewish Revolt].
Life of Vespasian, section 4.5 by Suetonius
Tacitus
Contending hosts were seen meeting in the skies, arms flashed, and suddenly the temple was illumined with fire from the clouds. Of a sudden the doors of the shrine opened and a superhuman voice cried: “The gods are departing”: at the same moment the p199mighty stir of their going was heard.44 Few interpreted these omens as fearful; the majority firmly believed that their ancient priestly writings contained the prophecy that this was the very time when the East should grow strong and that men starting from Judea should possess the world.45 This mysterious prophecy had in reality pointed to Vespasian and Titus, but the common people, as is the way of human ambition, interpreted these great destinies in their own favour, and could not be turned to the truth even by adversity.
Histories, Book 5, Chapter 13 by Tacitus
Josephus
But now, what did most elevate [the Jews] in undertaking this war was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings how “about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth.”
The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination. Now, this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea.
The Wars of the Jews, Book 6, Chapter 5, section 4, 312 / Josephus
= = =
mreichert said
And about Aaron Hernandez, how can you possibly know what he believed and what motivated him to do what he did. The best you can do is speculate…
He wrote it on his forehead in red ink before he hung himself.
That was his dying statement (along with his suicide notes that were personal to those he addressed) not my speculation.
I started watching the Steefen’s video but could not understand what he was talking about, and it was giving me a headache so I stopped after a couple minutes. It’s a shame, seems like he has lots of information in that head of his but getting it out so us mere mortals can understand what he is thinking is not happening.
mreichert said
I started watching the Steefen’s video but could not understand what he was talking about, and it was giving me a headache so I stopped after a couple minutes. It’s a shame, seems like he has lots of information in that head of his but getting it out so us mere mortals can understand what he is thinking is not happening.
The video opens with a timeline, 51 C.E. to 100 C.E.
No reason for you to get a headache.
The Testimonium Flavianum is put side to side with “Paul’s Testimony” at Acts 13: 27-31.
No reason for you to get a headache.
The presentation is about the Testimonium Flavianum passage and the two passages that follow.
No reason for you to get a headache.
The passage after “The Testimonium Flavianum” is “The Temple of Isis” passage.
A male character named Decius Mundus presented himself as a son of god.
The New Testament presented Jesus as a son of god.
No reason for you to get a headache.
“The Jewish Affairs” passage following The Temple of Isis passage is next.
Like in “The Temple of Isis’ passage, a devoted religious person is taken advantage of/exploited and the abuse is brought to the attention of a Roman Emperor. Is Josephus telling us Ancient Rome did not want people exploited by religion: religion had more integrity than that? That is why pious people could appeal to Rome for this sort of thing?
Let’s take a break here. mreichert did not get this far into the presentation; so, no reason to give a brief description of what remains of the presentation.
Jews to the Emperor: Don’t make a mockery of our religion with Christianity: our Temple is gone, our City is gone, don’t do this.
This:
You rewrite our hopes with this Jesus-messiah.
He criticizes Judaism.
And you kill him at the end.
You crucify our hope for salvation in this world.
Our Promised Land is gone, our Temple is gone, our Holy of Holies is gone, people have died and have been killed, our religion, our heart has been killed with the sacrileges at the Temple; now, we’re criticized with words in the mouth of Jesus from Galilee who with his mariners actually lost the Battle of Galilee.
What mockery. What satire. What disrespect.
And to have him remembered by eating his body and drinking his blood as a sacrifice
is really the remembrance of Deuteronomy 28: 53, 55; Jeremiah 19: 9; Lamentation 4: 10, and Leviticus 17: 10.
It is a remembrance of our defeat, the defeat that separated us from our God.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
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