Hello all,
This is my first post in this forum. English is a second language to me so please bear with me.
What I struggle with is understanding how a group of (most probably) illiterate peasants could create a long lasting tradition of a messiah in a time when there were many messiahs popping up every few years. why didn’t the “story” of these other messiahs and their followers stick? Why did Jesus’ story stick after crucifixion?
I do not mean the 2000 years of Christianity. These are built on writings of the 1st and 2nd century. I am referring to the period between the crucifixion and the time the first accounts were written. Why did these authors write about this specific messiah and not the one right before or right after him. What was different with this messiah wanna-be?
Dr. Reza Aslan’s new book claims that the only reason is the story of resurrection. While this might have been different from the other stories, it is still just another story. Do we have any evidence supporting Dr. Aslan’s analysis (he doesn’t show any – or maybe I missed it)?
What made Paul get attracted to the story of this messiah (unless we were to believe his story of his conversion)? What made others get so excited about this specific person from Nazareth?
After reading a few books, it would make more sense to me (no evidence, though) that Jesus came from a well established society (Essenes? I know Dr. Ehrman disagrees) that started growing with the story. Other messiahs started ‘stand-alone’ and eventually faded away.
Thoughts?
Maher
It is very difficult to explain historical developments in terms of probability, or explain history in terms of structural necessities like f.inst. Marxism tried to do. Much of history is simply chaotic and unexpected. I like to compare with a game of scrabble: change an initial move slightly, and the remaining game becomes completely different. The only “structural” invariance is that experienced players tend to win over inexperienced players. In your problem I would assume that the main difference is in the Pauline mission effort, which sought to universalize the message of the original sectarian movement. And why did this appeal to Paul, and why did he do it? Good question and difficult to answer. Let’s say that Paul had a Near Death Experience that changed his mind on the Jesus movement. If he had died at that moment, Christianity wouldn’t have developed as we know it today.
Hi Maher,
I believe that most of these other “Messiahs” were killed. Then after this happened, their followers gradually quit getting together and spreading his message.
After Jesus was crucified, he died and was buried. Then his followers claimed that they saw him again; he was resurrected.
Because Jesus was resurrected, his followers must have thought that this meant that he was much different than all the previous “Messiahs”. In fact, he must have actually been the real Messiah if he died and then was resurrected.
I believe that this is the main reason why Jesus’s followers continued to talk about Jesus after he died.
This is why Jesus
Have you really thought about this?
How many people in history have been resurrected?
I appreciate the responses. Thank you!
As the rules say, we are not here to convince each other. It is the discussions and the debate that we are after.
gavriel said
The only “structural” invariance is that experienced players tend to win over inexperienced players. In your problem I would assume that the main difference is in the Pauline mission effort, which sought to universalize the message of the original sectarian movement. And why did this appeal to Paul, and why did he do it? Good question and difficult to answer. Let’s say that Paul had a Near Death Experience that changed his mind on the Jesus movement. If he had died at that moment, Christianity wouldn’t have developed as we know it today.
Gavriel, I agree with your view on the Pauline mission. Christianity would be completely different (if it even still existed) without Paul. I would like to comment on the first sentence I quote from your post. It is that exact point that I am trying to make. The fisherman and peasant followers of Jesus wouldn’t have any experience advantage to “win”, right? Only Paul could have had that advantage and to refer the huge success in conversions (amongst Jews and gentiles) to the efforts started by one person would be a stretch; keeping in mind that Paul was not fully supported by the original followers (Peter, James, and the rest).
If only we could find out how many messiahs (and which ones) did Paul chase down when he was Saul. There must be (??) some text on that. Maybe then we can better understand why he remembered only Jesus when he had his near death experience (if the theory is right).
JBSeth1 said
Hi Maher,I believe that most of these other “Messiahs” were killed. Then after this happened, their followers gradually quit getting together and spreading his message.
After Jesus was crucified, he died and was buried. Then his followers claimed that they saw him again; he was resurrected.
Because Jesus was resurrected, his followers must have thought that this meant that he was much different than all the previous “Messiahs”. In fact, he must have actually been the real Messiah if he died and then was resurrected.
I believe that this is the main reason why Jesus’s followers continued to talk about Jesus after he died.
This is why Jesus
Have you really thought about this?
How many people in history have been resurrected?
JBSeth1, regarding your first sentence, it makes total sense. A messiah was supposed to bring God’s win over evil and crush the Romans. If the messiah died without bringing freedom from the Romans, well, the followers would stop talking about him. He basically failed and was labelled a fraud.
And yes, if someone dies today and I see them rise again, I might give some serious consideration to what they claim – even if it is godhood (well, not sure about that!). However, there were early Christians that did not believe the resurrection story. There wasn’t consensus on it.
As for how many people have been resurrected, I think the answer is “very many”. It wasn’t a unique experience. Somehow, this one lasted. He might have been the only messiah to have this claim made on his behalf but not the first in history.
I still think something (or a lot) is missing. He must have come (in my opinion) from a larger community that adopted his message; or, he was a representative of their collective message. They then carried the flag and went on. This momentum (and later success – again – towards 100CE) could not have been created by a bunch of fishermen and one educated convert from Tarsus.
Thanks again,
Maher
It’s an interesting question!
Thinking about it, it seems like you can ask that about a lot of figures from either the history of religion or history generally. Why them? Why then? I suppose it’s probably a combination of personal factors, the historical situation, and just pure randomness. I agree that Paul played a huge role in the spread of Christianity but clearly there were enough Christians around only a few years after Jesus’ death that Paul (wherever he was living) had gotten fed up with them and was persecuting them.
MrMistoffelees said
Hello all,This is my first post in this forum. English is a second language to me so please bear with me.
What I struggle with is understanding how a group of (most probably) illiterate peasants could create a long lasting tradition of a messiah in a time when there were many messiahs popping up every few years. why didn’t the “story” of these other messiahs and their followers stick? Why did Jesus’ story stick after crucifixion?
I do not mean the 2000 years of Christianity. These are built on writings of the 1st and 2nd century. I am referring to the period between the crucifixion and the time the first accounts were written. Why did these authors write about this specific messiah and not the one right before or right after him. What was different with this messiah wanna-be?
Dr. Reza Aslan’s new book claims that the only reason is the story of resurrection. While this might have been different from the other stories, it is still just another story. Do we have any evidence supporting Dr. Aslan’s analysis (he doesn’t show any – or maybe I missed it)?
What made Paul get attracted to the story of this messiah (unless we were to believe his story of his conversion)? What made others get so excited about this specific person from Nazareth?
After reading a few books, it would make more sense to me (no evidence, though) that Jesus came from a well established society (Essenes? I know Dr. Ehrman disagrees) that started growing with the story. Other messiahs started ‘stand-alone’ and eventually faded away.
Thoughts?
Maher
Interesting question. Your question also raises another question: why Islam managed to become one of the dominant religions in the world? And to a lesser extent, how did Mormon manage to become a “noticeable” religion, in addition to (or top of) Christianity? Same thing with Buddhism. Some religions don’t have the resurrection theme, but still managed to become a “noticeable” religion.
Logically speaking, God of Islam is the same God of Christianity, as I understand it; therefore, followers of these religions should really feel quite close to each other — same thing with Judaism and Christianity. I mean, God of Judaism, Islam and Christianity is the same God; yet, so much conflicts among the followers of these religions. For these reasons, I much more prefer the Eastern religion such as Buddhism which appears not to have engendered violence towards other religions.
I personally would like to believe some sort of God exists. Also, the idea of reincarnation appears to be more logical to me for some reason than heaven or hell. One same being constantly coming back to live as another being, i.e., you coming back as a cow for example. 
Thank you both!
Bethany said
It’s an interesting question!
Thinking about it, it seems like you can ask that about a lot of figures from either the history of religion or history generally. Why them? Why then? I suppose it’s probably a combination of personal factors, the historical situation, and just pure randomness. I agree that Paul played a huge role in the spread of Christianity but clearly there were enough Christians around only a few years after Jesus’ death that Paul (wherever he was living) had gotten fed up with them and was persecuting them.
I agree it is many factors with randomness playing a big role.
webattorney said
Interesting question. Your question also raises another question: why Islam managed to become one of the dominant religions in the world? And to a lesser extent, how did Mormon manage to become a “noticeable” religion, in addition to (or top of) Christianity? Same thing with Buddhism. Some religions don’t have the resurrection theme, but still managed to become a “noticeable” religion.Logically speaking, God of Islam is the same God of Christianity, as I understand it; therefore, followers of these religions should really feel quite close to each other — same thing with Judaism and Christianity. I mean, God of Judaism, Islam and Christianity is the same God; yet, so much conflicts among the followers of these religions. For these reasons, I much more prefer the Eastern religion such as Buddhism which appears not to have engendered violence towards other religions.
I personally would like to believe some sort of God exists. Also, the idea of reincarnation appears to be more logical to me for some reason than heaven or hell. One same being constantly coming back to live as another being, i.e., you coming back as a cow for example.
I am not sure about Mormons although I believe they took Christianity as a base and then adopted more recent books as divine. It is not a religion per se starting from scratch. More of a sect?
As for Islam, it is quite different. Mohammed started his “mission” at the age of 40 and died at the age of 62. In those 22 years he won many wars and settled an enormous number of disputes. By the time he died, he left behind a strong army, one set of undisputed text (although immaterial variations did exist), a constitution, strong well-educated warrior leaders, and a legacy. He could not have achieved that in just 3 years.
Followers of the monotheist religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) cannot be good to each other. I am referring here to the religious leaders and not the masses. The reason is that these religions are based on one theory: you follow the faith and you go to heaven or else you will get grilled for centuries in fire. It is not about which god you worship.
As for the last sentence, it reminds me of a quote by Sigmund Freud: “Religion is an illusion and it derives its strength from the fact that it falls in with our instinctual desires.” That’s why every area in this world has a set of beliefs.
I don’t know about reincarnation. How can it be true if the number of living creatures is increasing? Maybe there is new supply coming continuously with the old supply recycled?
Hmmm.
I was “Looking Inside” the new book: “How Jesus Became God” on Amazon and found that this particular question is very common. It seems Dr. Ehrman has a response to it: The belief in resurrection that some followers had; similar to what Dr. Aslan had in his book.
While Dr. Aslan’s book wasn’t too convincing, I will read this one and see if it is more convincing.
Ok. I got the book and I’m half way through it.
The argument is similar to Dr. Aslan’s as with the emphasis on the story of resurrection. There is a lot more detail that make this argument very convincing.
I would like like to add that while Dr. Ehrman argues that the visions that the disciples had of Jesus are what made the story ‘stick’, it seems to me that the vision that Paul had in particular is the main thing behind the growth of the religion. The others were followers and lovers of Jesus. Them having visions of him was ‘understandable’. It is when, I think, the enemy had a vision which led to his conversion that people started taking this story more seriously.
We will not know how the story of Jesus became a religion if we do not know what Paul has seen and why he converted.
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