It’s good to see scholars of Collin’s status on YouTube. But I have the same response as I do to all Muslim apologists when they use the opinions shaped by historical-critical method to critique Judaism and Christianity. Would you be content to have that same historical/critical apparatus applied to the Quran and Islam?
Stephen said
It’s good to see scholars of Collin’s status on YouTube. But I have the same response as I do to all Muslim apologists when they use the opinions shaped by historical-critical method to critique Judaism and Christianity. Would you be content to have that same historical/critical apparatus applied to the Quran and Islam?
Well I can only speak for myself. For one, there is far less of a barrier as compared to Christianity because a historical critique applied to the Bible, while varied, basically shreds pillars of both fundamental faith, and more importantly the faiths fundamentals. Varying, divergent christologies, views of salvation, ad hoc misquoted of OT scripture and forgeries fill the Bible
With the Quran and muslim texts, the barriers simply aren’t as great. Seems there is clearly some human element in the Quran transmission tradition, as modern critical scholars like Marijin van Putten have pointed out. Not necessarily my initial preference but I don’t really see a larger issue with what he says. At the very least, it’s more or less what we have early narrations from scholars line az zuhri and others say. For more you could watch a video by Hythem Sidky or just follow Marijin van Puttens Twitter.
At the same time would I agree with absolutely everything critical scholars say? Again speaking for myself, there’s arguments against the Bible that would work in my favor as a muslim, held by some scholars that I think are just wrong, some views which are flat out stupid. I don’t think the field of Islamic critical scholarship is too different-like any field in its infancy, research ranges from reasonable, undeniable, bland to bonkers. Do I expect it to somehow undermine the foundations of my faith? No I don’t expect that. If it were to be expected id expect it in the stuff marijin investigates. So far it seems to be anything but that.
Regardless, I’m curious in Christianity both to rebut Christian attacks, convert them to my faith (duh) and just on its own as a deep longstanding curiosity. I’d likely be at the blog if Christianity wasn’t a thing anymore if you transported me to some future where it was extinct.
Stephen said
It’s good to see scholars of Collin’s status on YouTube. But I have the same response as I do to all Muslim apologists when they use the opinions shaped by historical-critical method to critique Judaism and Christianity. Would you be content to have that same historical/critical apparatus applied to the Quran and Islam?
Also id like to point out, Paul and blogging theology has had Hythem Sidky on, and would have had Marijin on had the latter not refused. I imagine that invitation is still open.
Addition to what’s before
I actually do expect critical scholars to be SUPERIOR in certain facets of research, such as how Sunnism (which i guess i am) and shiasm developed including better clarity on what actually happened in the early civil war and later conflicts than what our elder scholars (kibar ulama) tell us as they try to paper over the stuff they don’t like often *literally* telling us not to inquire in certain subjects of such sectarian nature.
They’d have a better grasp probably because they don’t have a bone to pick or at least seeing how Bart and others tackle inter sectarian conflicts in Christianity gives me hope a similar calibre of scholars can pull the same off with Islamic history and development of varying strands of Islamic tradition
RM said
Stephen said
It’s good to see scholars of Collin’s status on YouTube. But I have the same response as I do to all Muslim apologists when they use the opinions shaped by historical-critical method to critique Judaism and Christianity. Would you be content to have that same historical/critical apparatus applied to the Quran and Islam?
Well I can only speak for myself. For one, there is far less of a barrier as compared to Christianity because a historical critique applied to the Bible, while varied, basically shreds pillars of both fundamental faith, and more importantly the faiths fundamentals. Varying, divergent christologies, views of salvation, ad hoc misquoted of OT scripture and forgeries fill the Bible
With the Quran and muslim texts, the barriers simply aren’t as great. Seems there is clearly some human element in the Quran transmission tradition, as modern critical scholars like Marijin van Putten have pointed out. Not necessarily my initial preference but I don’t really see a larger issue with what he says. At the very least, it’s more or less what we have early narrations from scholars line az zuhri and others say. For more you could watch a video by Hythem Sidky or just follow Marijin van Puttens Twitter.
At the same time would I agree with absolutely everything critical scholars say? Again speaking for myself, there’s arguments against the Bible that would work in my favor as a muslim, held by some scholars that I think are just wrong, some views which are flat out stupid. I don’t think the field of Islamic critical scholarship is too different-like any field in its infancy, research ranges from reasonable, undeniable, bland to bonkers. Do I expect it to somehow undermine the foundations of my faith? No I don’t expect that. If it were to be expected id expect it in the stuff marijin investigates. So far it seems to be anything but that.
Regardless, I’m curious in Christianity both to rebut Christian attacks, convert them to my faith (duh) and just on its own as a deep longstanding curiosity. I’d likely be at the blog if Christianity wasn’t a thing anymore if you transported me to some future where it was extinct.
My understanding is that the Quran had the advantage of actively purging the variants, when that was still possible. But that does not mean that what they have left makes any more sense.
I am amused at the efforts of some to “disprove” Christianity, as if that will create a rush of new adherents to Islam.
… there is far less of a barrier as compared to Christianity…
RM, I am not a believer so for me these are all historical questions. This frees me from much angst about the results of such inquiries. On the other hand I’m not terribly concerned with trying to convert or deconvert anyone from a prior faith position. I simply perceive an irony. (What sets me off personally is not other folks’ beliefs but attempts to impose those beliefs on me or assume some special privilege in society because of them.)
The truth is there are historical critical scholars applying their skills to the text of the Quran and its chain of transmission. Just as the truth claims of Judaism and Christianity have been challenged by modernity so will the truth claims of Islam. We will see what comes of that. Many opportunities will arise for Muslims to demonstrate their love of truth. Perhaps they will not have to be drug along kicking and screaming like many Jews and Christians. One can hope.
JAS said
RM said
Stephen said
It’s good to see scholars of Collin’s status on YouTube. But I have the same response as I do to all Muslim apologists when they use the opinions shaped by historical-critical method to critique Judaism and Christianity. Would you be content to have that same historical/critical apparatus applied to the Quran and Islam?
Well I can only speak for myself. For one, there is far less of a barrier as compared to Christianity because a historical critique applied to the Bible, while varied, basically shreds pillars of both fundamental faith, and more importantly the faiths fundamentals. Varying, divergent christologies, views of salvation, ad hoc misquoted of OT scripture and forgeries fill the Bible
With the Quran and muslim texts, the barriers simply aren’t as great. Seems there is clearly some human element in the Quran transmission tradition, as modern critical scholars like Marijin van Putten have pointed out. Not necessarily my initial preference but I don’t really see a larger issue with what he says. At the very least, it’s more or less what we have early narrations from scholars line az zuhri and others say. For more you could watch a video by Hythem Sidky or just follow Marijin van Puttens Twitter.
At the same time would I agree with absolutely everything critical scholars say? Again speaking for myself, there’s arguments against the Bible that would work in my favor as a muslim, held by some scholars that I think are just wrong, some views which are flat out stupid. I don’t think the field of Islamic critical scholarship is too different-like any field in its infancy, research ranges from reasonable, undeniable, bland to bonkers. Do I expect it to somehow undermine the foundations of my faith? No I don’t expect that. If it were to be expected id expect it in the stuff marijin investigates. So far it seems to be anything but that.
Regardless, I’m curious in Christianity both to rebut Christian attacks, convert them to my faith (duh) and just on its own as a deep longstanding curiosity. I’d likely be at the blog if Christianity wasn’t a thing anymore if you transported me to some future where it was extinct.
My understanding is that the Quran had the advantage of actively purging the variants, when that was still possible. But that does not mean that what they have left makes any more sense.
I am amused at the efforts of some to “disprove” Christianity, as if that will create a rush of new adherents to Islam.
If your curious you could read into the critical scholarship yourself, inquire into the purpose of thst, the nature and degree of those differences and so on. Re Christianity it does help. I’m guessing you aren’t familiar with the dawah/preacher scene but ehrman (and Quran critical scholars) don’t do their work in a vacuum. Critical scholarship findings are grabbed and opportunistically used against our theological foes. I think you should not be surprised-that is literally the entire history of Christianity, a long running theological war. Christians start that theological war with just about every group in existence and though Islam doesn’t really have too much to say about theology, we will naturally be a target and forced to fend them off, including raise doubts in our effort to bring them over. We’re human like that 😁
Stephen said
… there is far less of a barrier as compared to Christianity…RM, I am not a believer so for me these are all historical questions. This frees me from much angst about the results of such inquiries. On the other hand I’m not terribly concerned with trying to convert or deconvert anyone from a prior faith position. I simply perceive an irony. (What sets me off personally is not other folks’ beliefs but attempts to impose those beliefs on me or assume some special privilege in society because of them.)
The truth is there are historical critical scholars applying their skills to the text of the Quran and its chain of transmission. Just as the truth claims of Judaism and Christianity have been challenged by modernity so will the truth claims of Islam. We will see what comes of that. Many opportunities will arise for Muslims to demonstrate their love of truth. Perhaps they will not have to be drug along kicking and screaming like many Jews and Christians. One can hope.
I mean, I’m not going to use this thread to downplay or deny the significance of critical scholarship on the Quran. Again, I can only speak for myself, im basically comfortable with what Marijin, the world’s lead critical scholar in Quranic studies who is almost certainly an atheist like yourself has come out with.
Other muslims aren’t. I can’t speak for them or decide for them what they should be comfortable with or accept as true. However on Telegram I have debated conservative muslim scholars once over this issue and my impression is they were keen on denying critical findings, and not comfortable with the idea but not particularly unsettled by it in the way they are by arguments for human evolution which I’d guess is likely our biggest current theological challenge. The standard model of quranic preservation is not historical. There’s clearly a human element/interpolation in a number of verses/wordings. But as I’ve said, nothing to trouble me personally🤷♂️
Now if I was Christian I simply can’t imagine believing the nicene creed after reading How Jesus became God, or believing in biblical accuracy (let alone inerrancy) on how to live life to be saved after a lecture of Bart or forgeries (the book I’ve yet to read). Again can only speak for myself, other Christians have stayed Christian despite it, some even fundamentalist. How do they do it? No idea. I suppose you don’t understand either. But I couldn’t.
I think you seem to think there’s a field of terror around Quran critical scholars and every one lives in morbid fear of getting murdered by some angry bearded terrorist. I’m not sure if I should care to remove that notion from you, but if it comforts you, that doesn’t appear to be the case to me. Critical scholars and Christian missionaries openly use material from academia, share it and debate it on Twitter and YouTube. I’ve not observed them holding back anything.
RM when I think of Muslims I do not think of bearded terrorists (without denying that such creatures exist) but I think of my friend Faisal, a medical doctor who grew up on the streets of Lahore. He doesn’t remember his parents at all and was taken in by a woman who caught him when he snuck into her estate attracted by the music at a concert taking place. This wonderful Muslim woman made sure he was educated and gave him a life. When he came over to the US his medical accreditation wasn’t recognized so he is now going through school again to get his accreditation here. Consequently he is ten years older than his fellow students. I also think of my work colleague Fatima who immigrated to the US with her family from Nigeria when she was 15. In all things a modern astute businesswoman who favors pantsuits and head scarves.
Our world grows smaller everyday. Unless we all want to spend a short ugly future clawing each other’s eyes out while the world burns we will have to find a way to coexist. I like to think it will be folks such as Faisal and Fatima and yourself who will help their fellow Muslims navigate the troubled waters ahead. The problem is of course that it will be the fundamentalists of the different traditions who will refuse to adapt and refuse to go quietly. But go they must.
Stephen said
RM when I think of Muslims I do not think of bearded terrorists (without denying that such creatures exist) but I think of my friend Faisal, a medical doctor who grew up on the streets of Lahore. He doesn’t remember his parents at all and was taken in by a woman who caught him when he snuck into her estate attracted by the music at a concert taking place. This wonderful Muslim woman made sure he was educated and gave him a life. When he came over to the US his medical accreditation wasn’t recognized so he is now going through school again to get his accreditation here. Consequently he is ten years older than his fellow students. I also think of my work colleague Fatima who immigrated to the US with her family from Nigeria when she was 15. In all things a modern astute businesswoman who favors pantsuits and head scarves.Our world grows smaller everyday. Unless we all want to spend a short ugly future clawing each other’s eyes out while the world burns we will have to find a way to coexist. I like to think it will be folks such as Faisal and Fatima and yourself who will help their fellow Muslims navigate the troubled waters ahead. The problem is of course that it will be the fundamentalists of the different traditions who will refuse to adapt and refuse to go quietly. But go they must.
Glad to hear it! Fundamentalists of any stripe-faithful, ideological, ethnic or nationalist tend towards making the world messier sometimes mercilessly. Its a bitter pill to have to adapt to reality as it is and not as one prefers it to be but reality has a way of dominating in the end.
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