Be clear about the dating of 1 Enoch, Daniel, and 2 Enoch.
Okay. Here.
Britannica,
When was 1 Enoch, Chapters 1-36 written?
Between 200 BCE and 167 BCE (the Maccabean uprising)
with the Book of Daniel being written 200-150 BCE (the first half of the second century BCE)
Britannica,
When was 1 Enoch, Chapters 37-71 written?
Because Chapters 37-71 were not found with the Qumran manuscripts (manuscripts that are 3rd century BCE to 68 CE), some have theorized those chapters were written in the second century CE.
The second book of Enoch was written before AD 70.
Wikipedia,
When was 1 Enoch, Chapters 1-36 written?
300 – 200 BCE
with the Book of Daniel (with a 6th century BCE setting) being written 200-166/5.
Wikipedia,
When was 1 Enoch, Chapters 37-71 written?
probably no later than 100 BCE.
Jewish Encylopedia
When was 1 Enoch, Chapters 1-36 and 1 Enoch, Chapters 37-71 written?
Between 50 BCE and AD 70 with the Book of Daniel being written 175 – 166/5
The second book of Enoch was written between the 1st century BCE to the 10th century CE with the 1st century CE preferred.
= = =
QUESTION
Was Enoch 1 (which speaks of Enoch as the Son of Man written before Daniel) written before Daniel which speaks of One like a Son of Man
so Daniel is referencing a Son of Man in religious literature.
– OR –
Was Enoch 1 written after Daniel, giving readers an idea what a Son of Man is?
Robert
Be very careful about making this identification. We know from the much earlier Qumran texts that even the human Teacher of Righteousness could be described as one of the Angels of the Presence (Rule of Benedictions 1QSb 4,22-28 (Wise/Abegg/Cook).
Steefen
Enoch to Son of Man to angel to Metatron (angel of the Presence but not the only one since you say the Teacher of Righteousness could be one of the Angels of the Presence)
is different from a pre-existing archangel (Logos) who decides to take human form.
Picking up at 41:38 / 55: 56
Daniel Boyarin, Prof. of Talmudic Culture at UC Berkeley
There is a connection between 3 Enoch and the Ascension of Isaiah.
Specific formulations, particularly linguistic forms found in both.
Apparently 3 Enoch depends on the earlier Ascension of Isaiah.
Steefen
The angel Michael presides over the 3rd Heaven AND
is the heavenly high priest (not Enoch-Jesus?).
For everyone to be correct, Jesus and Michael are second to the Hebrew God and is the high priest.
Stephen, I’m not impressed by the way the killed brother was handled in heaven that you quoted.
Well I said haunting not admirable. But Abel is the quintessential murder victim. That is his essence, his substance. Abel is life thwarted. So his spirit cries out unto the judgment. But these sentiments are not unfamiliar. They reach all the way to the Apocalypse of John, nominally a Christian book that seems not to know the Abba, the loving father.
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
-Rev 6:9-10
Stephen said
Stephen, I’m not impressed by the way the killed brother was handled in heaven that you quoted.Well I said haunting not admirable. But Abel is the quintessential murder victim. That is his essence, his substance. Abel is life thwarted. So his spirit cries out unto the judgment. But these sentiments are not unfamiliar. They reach all the way to the Apocalypse of John, nominally a Christian book that seems not to know the Abba, the loving father.
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
-Rev 6:9-10
Okay, you are haunted by an inferior heaven in Enoch.
As for Revelation, that is a reference to the blood of those who were defeated in the Jewish Revolt.
Robert
The book of parables/similitudes, the part of Enoch that mentions a son of man, was written after Daniel.
Steefen
but before the Biblical Jesus Christ realized he would be rejected when he went to Jerusalem
or
before the authentic letters of Paul were written because those letters show the discussion had moved from the messiah being the Son of Man to the messiah being an angel. Second, 2 Enoch (50 – AD 70) had moved on to, as Prof. Daniel Boyarin states, the Messiah-Son of Man was in angelic transformation.
or
before the historical Jesus of the late 20s/early 30s had his Son of Man ministry that left no mark on the writers of 1 Enoch – Book of Parables.
or
before AD 70.
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For those who believe Jesus lived in the 20s/early 30s, The Book of Parables was something Jesus built on?
For those who do not believe Jesus lived in the 20s/early 30s, The Book of Parables was something the gospels writers built on?
Robert, I think you mentioned three scholars. At first glance, neither of them was at the Third Enoch Seminar.
The Enoch Seminar is an academic group of international specialists in Second Temple Judaism and the origins of Christianity who share information about their work in the field and biennially meet to discuss topics of common interest. (headquarters: Italy)
Here is their website:
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Just published! — “The Jesus movement was not an Enochic movement but an outgrowth of the Enochic movement. The Synoptics are not Enochic texts but an answer to an Enochic problem” (Boccaccini, p.167).
Enoch and the Synoptic Gospels: Reminiscences, Allusions, Intertextuality (ed. Loren T. Stuckenbruck and Gabriele Boccaccini; 2016)
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Steefen said
Just published! — “The Jesus movement was not an Enochic movement but an outgrowth of the Enochic movement. The Synoptics are not Enochic texts but an answer to an Enochic problem” (Boccaccini, p.167).Enoch and the Synoptic Gospels: Reminiscences, Allusions, Intertextuality (ed. Loren T. Stuckenbruck and Gabriele Boccaccini; 2016)
** you do not have permission to see this link **
There are two web pages of publications. (I saw an interesting title on the second page.)
Robert said
Geza Vermes, Maurice Casey, and Larry Hurtado all died within the past few years. If I remember correctly, this Enoch seminar was composed mostly of scholars who prefer earlier dates.
Thank you for the information.
The Enoch Seminar was around in 2005.
I put the book on my wish list. In my upcoming manuscript that will be made available on amazon and barnes and noble in both print and digital format, I hope 1 Enoch and 2 Enoch do not get their own chapter. Hopefully, the reviews of my manuscript will not call for that.
Steefen, argumentation specialist, expostulated
Okay, you are haunted by an inferior heaven in Enoch.
Not exactly. I am haunted by the image of the spirit of Abel crying out for vengeance. “Inferior” is a value judgment. Don’t be so hidebound and ideological you can’t be moved by the narrative you claim to be reading.
As for Revelation, that is a reference to the blood of those who were defeated in the Jewish Revolt.
Perhaps. Nevertheless it a cry for bloody vengeance echoing across the centuries.
There are six main parts to 1 Enoch.
Steefen
Not two. Okay. What are they?
Joseph Lumpkin
The Book of Watchers, Chapters 1-36, probably written late 3rd century/early 2nd century B.C.E.
The Book of Parables, Chapters 37-71, probably written 1st century C.E.
The Book of Astronomy and Calendar, Chapters 72-82, probably written late 3rd century/early 2nd century B.C.E.
The Book of Visions, Chapters 83-90, probably written around the time of the Maccabean Revolt (167-160 B.C.E.)
The Book of Warnings and Blessings of Enoch, Chapters 91-104, probably written early 2nd century B.C.E.
Later Additions to the Text, Book of Noah, Chapters 105-108, probably written 2nd century B.C.E.
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