Hi everyone. Hope everyone is doing good or at least normal.
This time, my question will be kind of different. I got immensely interested in the zoroastrian’s influence on Judaism. One thing I have read is the Richard Carrier’s blog. This is what Richard says:
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> But, by contrast, consider the Persian connection. Persian Zoroastrianism has always held, since records for it began, to several unusual doctrines that ended up defining popular Judaism:
> The whole world order can be explained as resulting from a cosmic war between a Good God and an Evil One.
Prophecy centrally drives the religion’s religious expectations, predicting in particular that…
A “Messiah” will come in the future and fix everything, in particular…
Defeating the “Evil One” once and for all…
…at a final cosmic Apocalypse…
Bringing a Resurrection of all people all at once…
And destroying the world and replacing it with an eternal paradise for all.
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I am trying to find places in gathas specifically where the above points actually are described. I couldn’t find “messianic figure” in gathas or about resurrection or the final judgement day. It seems to me that gathas only talk about doing good deeds, praying and getting blessing and good life while one’s during life but it doesn’t talk about anything about end times and messianic figure.
Question 1: First of all, is it true that gathas doesn’t contain anything related to this ?
Question 2: I have been searching where these could be described anywhere else. One point though I wanna stress is I am looking for the earliest mentions of resurrection/end-times/messianic-figure because if it’s mentioned in avesta’s text which was produced during the 2nd BC, then it really gives me no argument about zoroastrianism’s influence on Judaism. So I really want to follow Richard.
Is anyone well experienced in these points ? Would love to hear some specific verses about “resurrection/end-times/messianic-figure” as earliest as possible. I’d appreciate this as I am having a hard time finding these.
Stephen, It’s really hard to ask on the website where Prof Ehrman answers because it takes 2 days for each question to get verified and answers are not big, so i can not engage in a discussion like this. I would first prefer to get ideas of what i am asking here on this forum.
Hi Georgi,
This is Steve Campbell [Steefen], author of Historical Accuracy.
I asked Chat GPT one of your questions…
Chat GPT,
In Zoroastrianism, do the gathas speak of a messiah?
[Answer] Chat GPT:
In Zoroastrianism, the Gathas, which are the hymns attributed to the prophet Zarathustra (Zoroaster), do not explicitly mention a messiah figure in the same way later Zoroastrian texts do. The Gathas primarily focus on ethical and spiritual teachings, emphasizing the importance of individual righteousness, good thoughts, good words, and good deeds, in service of Ahura Mazda, the supreme god of Zoroastrianism.
However, later Zoroastrian texts, such as the Avesta and other Pahlavi writings, introduce the concept of a messianic figure called the Saoshyant (Savior). The Saoshyant is foretold to be a future savior who will bring about the final renovation of the world, defeat the forces of evil, and restore righteousness and order. This eschatological figure is seen as a descendant of Zoroaster and plays a critical role in the Zoroastrian vision of the end times, when evil will be finally vanquished, and the world will be renewed.
While the Gathas themselves focus more on moral guidance and worship of Ahura Mazda, the later development of the Saoshyant concept is central to the eschatology and messianic expectations in Zoroastrianism.
In Zoroastrianism, do the gathas speak of resurrection or reincarnation?
Chat GPT=4:
In the Gathas of Zoroastrianism, which are the oldest and most sacred hymns attributed to Zarathustra (Zoroaster), there is no explicit mention of reincarnation as it is understood in other traditions like Hinduism or Buddhism. However, there are references to a form of resurrection or afterlife, though the details are not as developed as in later Zoroastrian texts.
The Gathas speak of the fate of the soul after death, with a clear emphasis on moral accountability. Zarathustra teaches that after death, individuals are judged based on their deeds during their lifetime. The righteous are rewarded, while the wicked are punished. The notion of the “Chinvat Bridge” is implied, where the soul is judged and either crosses safely to paradise or falls into an abyss of suffering.
As for resurrection, while the Gathas do not provide a detailed account, they do hint at the idea of a final judgment or renewal of existence. This becomes much more prominent in later Zoroastrian literature, where the concept of Frashokereti is developed. Frashokereti is the final renovation or resurrection at the end of time, when the dead will rise, evil will be destroyed, and the world will be perfected. At this point, all souls, both living and dead, will be purified and reunited with their bodies.
In summary, the Gathas touch on themes of the afterlife and judgment but do not explicitly mention reincarnation. They suggest a belief in moral consequences after death, with more fully developed ideas of resurrection emerging in later Zoroastrian teachings.
In Zoroastrianism, do the gathas speak of an end time or an apocalypse?
Chat GPT-4:
In the Gathas of Zoroastrianism, there are references to a future time of judgment and the ultimate triumph of good over evil, but the detailed concept of an end time or apocalypse as developed in later Zoroastrian texts is not fully articulated.
The Gathas primarily focus on moral teachings and emphasize the ongoing struggle between Asha (truth and order) and Druj (falsehood and chaos). However, there are hints that this cosmic struggle will culminate in a final victory for Asha, where Ahura Mazda, the supreme god, and the forces of good will prevail over evil.
Zarathustra speaks of a future where justice will be done, and the righteous will be rewarded. For instance, there are mentions of a day of reckoning or judgment, suggesting a time when individuals will face the consequences of their deeds. This could be interpreted as an early form of an eschatological vision, though it is not described in apocalyptic terms as seen in later religious traditions.
The fully developed Zoroastrian apocalyptic vision, known as Frashokereti (the final renovation or restoration of the world), appears in later texts, such as the Younger Avesta and Pahlavi writings. In these later sources, the end of the world is depicted as a final battle between good and evil, followed by the resurrection of the dead, the purification of all souls, and the renewal of the world. At this point, evil will be destroyed, and eternal peace and order will reign.
So, while the Gathas hint at an ultimate victory for good and a future judgment, the full apocalyptic framework with a clear end time and final resurrection is a later development in Zoroastrianism.
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