Bart, in his book, Heaven and Hell, says that “2 Maccabees” talk about bodily resurrection as a later event that will happen on Judgement day, whereas “4 Maccabees” talk about the resurrection right instantly at the time of death. I have 2 questions.
1. What makes us think that “2 Maccabees” talk about the resurrection specifically on judgement day and not instantly after death ? I have read every verse and none of this implies that it’s about Judgement day. See 2 Maccabees 7:9, 2 Maccabees 7:19 and many more.
2. What makes us think that “2 Maccabees” talk about the bodily resurrection ? Nothing implies this.
I need to understand this because I am learning about the shift that occured from bodily resurrection to the platonic view of “soul” and to see this shift myself, I need to know that there was indeed a shift. So hopefully, I am missing something and “2 Maccabbees” really contain “bodily resurrection on the judgement day” notion.
Giorgi:
Bart, in his book, Heaven and Hell, says that “2 Maccabees” talk about bodily resurrection as a later event that will happen on Judgement day, whereas “4 Maccabees” talk about the resurrection right instantly at the time of death. I have 2 questions.
1. What makes us think that “2 Maccabees” talk about the resurrection specifically on judgement day and not instantly after death ? I have read every verse and none of this implies that it’s about Judgement day. See 2 Maccabees 7:9, 2 Maccabees 7:19 and many more.
Steefen:
John 11: 24
Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
Giorgi, Robert,
Where did Martha get that idea?
Chat has an answer for you.
Hey GatGPT4.0,
Where did Martha get the idea that Lazarus would rise again in the resurrection at the last day?
Chat said:
Martha’s belief that Lazarus would rise again in the resurrection at the last day reflects the Jewish understanding of resurrection that was prevalent during her time, particularly among the Pharisees and many devout Jews. This belief was rooted in the Hebrew Scriptures and Jewish tradition.
Old Testament Background: Several passages in the Hebrew Scriptures suggest a belief in the resurrection:
Daniel 12:2: “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”
Isaiah 26:19: “Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy!”
Job 19:25-26: “For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God.”
These verses point to a future hope in the resurrection of the dead.
Pharisaic Belief: By the Second Temple period, the Pharisees had developed a clear doctrine of bodily resurrection, which became a central aspect of their theology. The Sadducees, on the other hand, rejected this belief. Martha’s statement in John 11:24 (“I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day”) aligns with the Pharisaic teaching that many Jews held at the time.
Jesus’ Teachings: By the time of John 11, Jesus had already taught about the resurrection and eternal life in several instances, such as in John 6:39-40: “This is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.”
Martha’s statement reflects her grounding in Jewish theology and possibly her understanding of Jesus’ prior teachings. However, Jesus goes on to deepen her understanding by declaring, “I am the resurrection and the life” (John 11:25), showing that resurrection is not just a future event but is centered in His person.
Google AI:
In the Bible, Martha got the idea that Lazarus would rise again in the resurrection at the last day from Jesus’s teachings about resurrection. Jesus had previously spoken about resurrection in John 3:15–16 and 6:39–40. Martha and her sister Mary were close followers of Jesus’s teachings, and had great faith in him.
When Martha met Jesus after her brother Lazarus had died, she told him, “If you had been here, my brother would not have died”. Jesus responded, “Your brother will rise again”. Martha replied, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day”. Jesus then said, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die”.
I don’t think you’ll find a satisfiable linguistic and philosophical understanding of the questions until you firsthand experience war, killings and murders. Such events will within medical terminology change your brain chemistry. People who’ve killed or witnessed killing have a new brain chemistry afterwards. A natural hallucination drug. Some people get addicted to it and become psychopaths.
Daniel 12:2
There a blending of two prophecies from Ezekiel 37 and Zechariah 14. King David and the LORD. The prophecies blend and become one. It’s all the same.
The after-life is thought of as life after Jesus.
I don’t get what Steefen is saying as I really don’t care about John and any other unrelated sources. I specifically asked the question about Maccabees 2.
Robert, once again, thank you for being explicit and giving such good answers. Your answer to the 2nd question makes sense. As for the first question, I think i understand where you’re coming from. First, you show that maccabees 2 talks about bodily resurrection and if this is proved, then we can also assume that resurrection would happen at later judgement day, because people saw others die and they didn’t rise up immediatelly, so it’s an implicit connection. What this means is if you don’t prove first that Maccabees 2 talk about “bodily” resurrection, then showing its about later judgement days falls short. But I am starting to see now that bart is right about this.
I haven’t asked Bart, because it takes at least 4 days to get an answer which is pretty uncomfortable.
Ezekiel 37:24. How can King David be king again when he’s dead? Resurrection of the dead, or a descendant of King David called a Son of David. So whatever the Pharisees think, while the Sadducees think it’s all prophecy nonsense.
Somebody called Jesus was wandering around telling people he was the resurrected King David.
Giorgi_Lagidze
1. What makes us think that “2 Maccabees” talks about the resurrection specifically on judgement day and not instantly after death?
Steefen
Where have we heard that before?
We heard that from Martha in John. She says there is a resurrection on judgement day.
Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
Why would a Jewish person 300 BCE – 50 BCE think there was a resurrection on judgement day.
That belief expressed in 2 Maccabees and Martha comes from the same source.
Martha’s belief that Lazarus would rise again in the resurrection at the last day reflects the Jewish understanding of resurrection that was prevalent during her time, particularly among the Pharisees and many devout Jews. This belief was rooted in the Hebrew Scriptures and Jewish tradition.
Old Testament Background: Several passages in the Hebrew Scriptures suggest a belief in the resurrection:
Daniel 12:2: “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”
Isaiah 26:19: “Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy!”
Job 19:25-26: “For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been thus destroyed, yet in my flesh I shall see God.”
These verses point to a future hope in the resurrection of the dead.
= = =
Giorgi_Lagidze
I have read every verse and none of this implies that it’s about Judgement day.
See 2 Maccabees 7:9, 2 Maccabees 7:19 and many more.
Giorgi says he doesn’t see it at 2 Maccabees 7:9.
ChatGPT sees it at 7:9
2 Maccabees discusses bodily resurrection in the context of martyrdom and the hope of the faithful in 2 Maccabees 7. This chapter narrates the story of the seven brothers and their mother, who are tortured and killed for refusing to violate the Jewish law by eating pork.
The theme of resurrection is particularly evident in the brothers’ speeches:
2 Maccabees 7:9: The second brother, before dying, declares his hope in resurrection, saying:
“You accursed fiend, you are depriving us of this present life, but the King of the universe will raise us up to an everlasting renewal of life, because we have died for his laws.”
Chat sees it at 2 Maccabees 7: 11 and 7:14
2 Maccabees 7:11: The third brother, after losing his hands, courageously states:
“I received these from Heaven, and because of his laws I disdain them, and from him I hope to get them back again.”
This indicates belief in the bodily restoration of his physical form.
2 Maccabees 7:14: The fourth brother expresses confidence in eternal life, saying:
“It is my choice to die at the hands of men with the hope God gives of being raised up by him; but for you, there will be no resurrection to life.”
Chat said:
These passages affirm the Jewish belief in bodily resurrection on Judgment Day for the righteous, contrasting it with the fate of the wicked, who will not share in this life to come. This theological perspective is significant in the development of Jewish and Christian eschatology.
Steefen
2 Maccabees 7:9
One has to ask WHEN WILL THE KING OF THE UNIVERSE RAISE US UP TO AN EVERLASTING RENEWAL OF LIFE BECASUE WE HAVE DIED FOR HIS LAWS?
2 Maccabees 7:11
One has to ask WHEN FROM HIM WILL I GET MY HANDS BACK AGAIN?
2 Maccabees 7:14
One has to ask WHEN WILL GOD RISE THE FOURTH BROTHER UP?
The answer to when comes from Daniel 12:2-3.
Chat said:
The Jewish Bible (Tanakh) contains several passages that suggest belief in resurrection, though it is less explicitly developed than in later Jewish and Christian traditions. Key references include:
1. Daniel 12:2-3
This is the clearest and most explicit reference to resurrection in the Jewish Bible:
“Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.”
This passage describes a resurrection at the end of time, with a clear distinction between rewards for the righteous and punishment for the wicked.
4. Job 19:25-27
Job expresses hope for seeing God after death:
“For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth.
And after my skin has been thus destroyed,
yet in my flesh I shall see God, whom I shall see for myself, and my eyes shall behold, and not another.”
This passage is often interpreted as a declaration of faith in a bodily resurrection.
Hi Chat,
In Jewish religious thought, when did bodily resurrection change to spiritual resurrection?
Chat said:
The shift from an emphasis on bodily resurrection to a more spiritualized understanding of resurrection in Jewish religious thought occurred gradually, influenced by various theological, cultural, and historical developments. Key points in this transition include:
1. Second Temple Period (530 BCE–70 CE):
Bodily Resurrection in Apocalyptic Literature:
During the Second Temple period, bodily resurrection was a central belief, particularly in apocalyptic texts like Daniel 12:2-3 and in sectarian groups such as the Pharisees. This belief emphasized the restoration of the righteous at the end of days.
Essenes and Qumran Community: Texts from the Dead Sea Scrolls (e.g., Rule of the Community) suggest a focus on the resurrection of the faithful but also introduce ideas of spiritual purity for the afterlife.
Sadducees vs. Pharisees:
The Sadducees, who did not believe in resurrection, represented a more conservative, Torah-based interpretation, while the Pharisees championed bodily resurrection as part of God’s ultimate justice.
2. Post-Temple Period (70 CE and Beyond):
After the destruction of the Second Temple, Rabbinic Judaism became the dominant form of Judaism.
Mishnaic Period (200 CE): The Mishnah and Talmud preserve the Pharisaic belief in bodily resurrection but also begin exploring more spiritualized views. For instance, the Amidah prayer explicitly refers to bodily resurrection (“You are faithful to revive the dead”).
Dual Emphasis: Rabbinic thought balances bodily resurrection with the idea of the immortality of the soul, derived from Hellenistic influences and Jewish philosophical works.
3. Medieval Jewish Philosophy (8th–13th centuries):
Influenced by Greek philosophy, Jewish thinkers like Maimonides (1138–1204) emphasized the immortality of the soul over bodily resurrection.
In his 13 Principles of Faith, Maimonides affirms bodily resurrection but interprets it allegorically in some cases, reflecting a tension between physical and spiritual afterlife concepts.
His Guide for the Perplexed focuses on the intellectual perfection of the soul and its eternal communion with God.
Other medieval thinkers, such as Saadia Gaon, reaffirmed bodily resurrection, arguing that God’s justice demands the restoration of both body and soul.
4. Mystical Judaism (Kabbalah and Hasidism):
Kabbalistic texts, such as the Zohar, merge bodily and spiritual resurrection concepts. They describe resurrection as part of cosmic processes, with souls reuniting with bodies in a purified form.
In Hasidic thought, the focus shifts toward spiritual resurrection—resurrection of divine sparks within the soul—emphasizing an inner transformation rather than a physical event.
5. Modern Judaism (19th century–present):
Reform Judaism: Early Reform movements (19th century) rejected bodily resurrection, favoring the immortality of the soul as more consistent with modern philosophy.
Orthodox and Conservative Judaism: These movements continue to uphold traditional beliefs in bodily resurrection, often citing the Amidah prayer and Maimonides’ principles.
Secular Jewish Thought: For many modern, secular Jews, resurrection is seen metaphorically—e.g., the survival of Jewish culture and memory.
Summary of the Transition:
The shift toward spiritual resurrection was gradual and driven by:
Hellenistic influences emphasizing the soul’s immortality.
Philosophical reinterpretations during the medieval period.
Modern adaptations aligning with rationalist and metaphorical understandings of ancient texts.
However, the belief in bodily resurrection persists in traditional Judaism, particularly in Orthodox and Conservative Judaism, while spiritualized interpretations dominate in more progressive and mystical Jewish movements.
Hi Chat,
In Ancient Egyptian Religion, does the spirit travel with Osiris to resurrection after going through the amduat?
Chat said:
In Ancient Egyptian religion, the concept of resurrection involves a complex journey of the soul (or ka, ba, and other spiritual aspects) through the Du’at (underworld) or the Amduat (“That Which Is in the Underworld”), culminating in union with Osiris and the possibility of eternal life.
Here’s how the process relates to the spirit and Osiris:
1. The Journey Through the Amduat
The Amduat is the guidebook for the deceased (especially pharaohs) on their journey through the underworld during the 12 hours of the night.
The deceased follows the sun god Ra on this nightly journey, passing through a series of gates, caverns, and challenges, where they must confront chaos, demons, and obstacles.
The ultimate goal is to emerge reborn with Ra in the morning, symbolizing resurrection and the continuation of the cosmic order.
2. The Role of Osiris
Osiris is the god of resurrection, the underworld, and judge of the dead.
The spirit of the deceased is judged in the Hall of Ma’at, where the heart is weighed against the feather of Ma’at (truth and cosmic order). If the deceased passes this judgment, they are deemed worthy of eternal life.
Successful souls are identified with Osiris, becoming “Osiris [Name of the Deceased].” This means the deceased participates in Osiris’s resurrection, achieving a form of spiritual immortality.
3. Spiritual Aspects and Resurrection
The Ancient Egyptians believed in multiple spiritual components, including:
Ka: The life force that needs offerings and sustenance.
Ba: The personality or spirit that could travel between the living world and the Du’at.
Akh: The transfigured, glorified form of the deceased after successful resurrection.
The Ba, often depicted as a bird with a human head, plays a critical role in the journey. It travels with the deceased, interacts with Osiris, and merges with the Ka to form the Akh, completing the resurrection process.
4. Resurrection and Union with Osiris
The deceased, after overcoming challenges in the Amduat and being vindicated in the Hall of Ma’at, joins Osiris in the underworld.
Union with Osiris means sharing in his resurrection and eternal life, which is both a spiritual and symbolic process. Osiris’s resurrection signifies the eternal cycle of life, death, and renewal tied to the Nile’s fertility and the solar journey.
Conclusion
Yes, in Ancient Egyptian belief, the spirit (especially the Ba) travels through the Amduat and ultimately unites with Osiris to achieve resurrection. This resurrection is not just the continuation of existence but a glorified, eternal life tied to cosmic and divine order.
Since we are talking about Platonic thought, is there resurrection there?
Of course, remember when you read Gorgias, at the end Socrates talks about, as a conscious being surviving death answering for the completion of his life to his God?
Yes, Jewish thought caught up to that concept expressed–when did Plato write Gorgias, Chat?
Chat said:
Plato likely wrote the Gorgias in the early part of his career, around 380–375 BCE, during his “transitional” period. This places it after some of his earlier dialogues, like Apology and Crito, but before more mature works like Republic and Phaedrus.
The Gorgias reflects Plato’s growing philosophical engagement with ethics, rhetoric, and the nature of justice, topics central to his later works. In it, Socrates debates with Gorgias, Polus, and Callicles about the role of rhetoric, the nature of power, and the moral life, foreshadowing themes that are more fully developed in the Republic.
Chat,
Did Philo of Alexandria speak of resurrection?
Chat said:
Philo of Alexandria, the Hellenistic Jewish philosopher of the first century BCE to the first century CE, does not explicitly discuss bodily resurrection as it is understood in later Jewish and Christian theology. His writings instead focus on the immortality of the soul, heavily influenced by Platonic philosophy, which he integrates with Jewish religious concepts.
Key Points on Philo’s Views:
Immortality of the Soul:
Philo believed that the soul is inherently immortal and that its ultimate goal is to ascend to God after death. This aligns with the Greek philosophical tradition, particularly Platonism, which emphasized the soul’s preexistence and its separation from the body.
Allegorical Interpretation of the Torah:
Philo interprets many of the Torah’s teachings allegorically, often moving away from a literal understanding of concepts like bodily resurrection. For Philo, references to life after death in Jewish scripture often signify the soul’s purification and reunion with the divine.
For example, the stories of the patriarchs and their spiritual journeys symbolize the soul’s ascent toward divine wisdom rather than physical resurrection.
Contrast with Bodily Resurrection:
Bodily resurrection, a key theme in Second Temple Judaism (e.g., Daniel 12:2-3 and 2 Maccabees 7), was not a significant focus in Philo’s thought. He was more concerned with the soul’s eternal nature and its liberation from the physical body, which he often saw as a source of corruption or limitation.
Judgment and Afterlife:
Philo does speak of divine judgment after death, where the soul is rewarded or punished. However, this judgment pertains to the soul’s state rather than a bodily resurrection. He emphasizes moral virtue and the cultivation of wisdom as preparation for this divine encounter.
Influence and Legacy:
Philo’s ideas reflect a synthesis of Jewish theology and Hellenistic philosophy, particularly appealing to a Jewish audience familiar with Greek intellectual traditions. His focus on the soul’s immortality influenced early Christian thought, especially theologians who sought to reconcile Greek philosophy with Christian doctrine.
While he does not embrace bodily resurrection, his work represents an important thread of Jewish thought during the Second Temple period, demonstrating the diversity of beliefs within Judaism at the time.
Hm, well, did any Jewish Philosopher speak of resurrection?
Chat said:
Yes, several Jewish philosophers, across different historical periods, discuss resurrection, though their interpretations and emphases vary depending on their philosophical, religious, and cultural contexts. The concept of resurrection is a foundational belief in traditional Judaism, particularly in Rabbinic Judaism, and many Jewish philosophers have engaged with this doctrine.
1. Saadia Gaon (882–942 CE)
Resurrection as Central to Jewish Faith:
Saadia Gaon, one of the most important early Jewish philosophers, addresses resurrection extensively in his work, The Book of Beliefs and Opinions (Emunot ve-Deot).
He defends the belief in bodily resurrection as a necessary doctrine of Judaism, rooted in the promises of the Hebrew Bible and rabbinic tradition.
Saadia distinguishes between immortality of the soul and bodily resurrection, arguing that both are integral to understanding divine justice. Resurrection is necessary for ultimate rewards and punishments to be complete.
2. Maimonides (1138–1204 CE)
Resurrection in the 13 Principles of Faith:
Maimonides includes belief in the resurrection of the dead as the 13th of his Thirteen Principles of Faith. This shows its centrality in traditional Jewish theology.
Philosophical Interpretation:
In his Guide for the Perplexed, Maimonides tends to focus more on the immortality of the soul and intellectual union with God. Some scholars interpret his views on resurrection as being less literal and more allegorical. However, in his letter on resurrection (Ma’amar Tehiyyat Ha-Metim), he explicitly reaffirms his belief in bodily resurrection to counter accusations of heresy.
Dual Emphasis: He harmonizes resurrection with Aristotelian philosophy, suggesting that resurrection might serve as a miraculous event demonstrating divine power, but eternal reward belongs to the soul.
3. Nachmanides (1194–1270 CE)
Nachmanides (Ramban), a contemporary of Maimonides, gives a more mystical interpretation of resurrection.
In his commentary on the Torah, Nachmanides connects resurrection to the Messianic era and the ultimate redemption of humanity. He emphasizes the restoration of both body and soul in the World to Come (Olam Ha-Ba).
Unlike Maimonides, Nachmanides sees resurrection as a central, literal, and ongoing process during the Messianic age, consistent with Kabbalistic traditions.
4. Yehuda Halevi (1075–1141 CE)
In The Kuzari, Yehuda Halevi affirms belief in resurrection as a component of Jewish eschatology.
He emphasizes the miraculous nature of resurrection as part of God’s covenant with Israel and its role in the Messianic future. Halevi places less emphasis on philosophical rationalizations and more on the divine promise as revealed in the Torah.
5. Kabbalistic and Mystical Thinkers
Jewish mystical traditions, particularly Kabbalah, deeply integrate resurrection into their eschatological vision.
The Zohar (13th century) describes resurrection as the reanimation of the physical body in a purified state, tied to the process of cosmic tikkun (repair).
Resurrection is seen as a necessary stage in the Messianic era, with the righteous participating in eternal life both spiritually and physically.
6. Modern Jewish Philosophers
Orthodox Thinkers: Traditionalist philosophers in modern times (e.g., Samson Raphael Hirsch) affirm the traditional belief in bodily resurrection, often emphasizing its ethical and theological implications.
Reform and Liberal Movements: Modern Jewish philosophers in more liberal movements tend to downplay or reinterpret resurrection as symbolic of the continuity of Jewish culture, memory, or spiritual renewal.
Summary
The concept of resurrection is addressed by numerous Jewish philosophers, including Saadia Gaon, Maimonides, Nachmanides, and Yehuda Halevi, often as a literal belief integral to traditional Jewish eschatology. While rationalist philosophers like Maimonides occasionally lean toward allegorical or spiritual interpretations, mystics and traditionalists strongly emphasize the physical resurrection as central to the Messianic vision.
@Porphyry
Nope. But I fell through the hay bales at the top of the loft once almost died. That was cool. Then I went and chased the cows around in the mud. This was all before kindergarden.
Books of Maccabeas, this is all when the book of Daniel prophecies were fulfilled but it’s not up to “specs” yet to be considered a Jewish history book yet. David Koresh didn’t understand all that yet.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
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