FocusMyView said
It brings a whole new perspective to Ancient gods to Muslims scholars. El was the father of Yahweh. Yahweh is just a perversion of the truth the whole time. Ta da! Islam is the truth…
The name Allah was used as the creator deity of Jews and Arab Pagans before Islam. Also, Christians do say Jesus Christ is Allah and the son of Allah. Naturally the Jews and Christians in the peninsula would use the name as they use the name God for God today.
The earliest Muslims spoke Arabic and the Quran is in Arabic and so Muslims everywhere say Allah is our Lord.
If I am not mistaken, Jews have a similar history with the name Yahweh, adopting the name from pagans who used to worship him but unlike pagans deciding not to accept anyone else as God except Yahweh.
gmatthews said
Per wikipedia “Allah” is Arabic with other Semitic languages having linguistic derivatives. In Aramaic it’s “Elah”, the plural of which is “Elohim”, a word that is probably more familiar (it’s also singular, but I’ll leave that to anyone interested to look up).
I was listening to Nouman Ali Khan, a popular teacher of the Quran and he goes into linguistic depth on the word.
The word ilah and aliha mean god and gods in Arabic.
The question is absurd.
Arabic came MUCH LATER after Aramaic as the denomination of “Allah” which Muslims use to express “God” or perhaps more precisely THEIR God – as there is every reason to think their god cannot possibly be the same god as the Judeao-Christian G-d because they seem to differ so much of what is expected from Humans.
I guess it is possible that Mohammed chose a name (Allah) to resemble much the Jewish “EL”.
Muhammad didn’t chose the name Allah. The word predates Islam. Allah comes from the words “al ilah” meaning “The God”. In ancient (and maybe modern?) Arabic, if you have ‘Al’ in front of another word, you can pronounce the two together. For example “al shams” (the sun) becomes asshams when pronounced. “Al noor” (the light) becomes “annoor”. So, “al ilah” can become allah when pronounced.
The word ilah is just the Arabic word for ‘god’. Other Semitic languages have words which derive from the same root ‘il. For example: El, Eloah, Elaha, Alaha in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Syriac.
The fact that Allah was used by Arabs and Arabic speaking Jews and Christians to refer to the supreme god is taken for granted in the Quran itself.
Lef said
The question is absurd.
Arabic came MUCH LATER after Aramaic as the denomination of “Allah” which Muslims use to express “God” or perhaps more precisely THEIR God – as there is every reason to think their god cannot possibly be the same god as the Judeao-Christian G-d because they seem to differ so much of what is expected from Humans.I guess it is possible that Mohammed chose a name (Allah) to resemble much the Jewish “EL”.
I wouldn’t say it came much later in Arabic. Perhaps the version at the time 600 was around that however.
Allah was worshiped by Arabian Jews Christians and Pagans. Christians would say Jesus Christ is Allah. So your guess is beyond absurd. Jews were called God Allah before Muhammad was even born let alone started preaching.
As for Judeo-Christian G-d, well that’s a bit funny. Jews completely reject what Christians worship in every way possible. Judeo-Christian refers to coming from the same tradition but that they are as different as desert and sea in view of God is not up for debate.
MMahmud said
Allah was worshiped by Arabian Jews Christians and Pagans. Christians would say Jesus Christ is Allah. So your guess is beyond absurd. Jews were called God Allah before Muhammad was even born let alone started preaching.
As for Judeo-Christian G-d, well that’s a bit funny. Jews completely reject what Christians worship in every way possible. Judeo-Christian refers to coming from the same tradition but that they are as different as desert and sea in view of God is not up for debate.
“I wouldn’t say it came much later in Arabic. Perhaps the version at the time 600 was around that however.”
Hebrew – as a language with a propper alphabet – predates Greek, let alone Arabic which for lack of other information we can position around 400 CE.
“Allah was worshiped by Arabian Jews Christians and Pagans. Christians would say Jesus Christ is Allah. So your guess is beyond absurd. Jews were called God Allah before Muhammad was even born let alone started preaching.”
What is your objective historical evidence that “Allah” was worshipped by Jews, Christians and Pagans … ?
You cannot use what Islam says today as evidence in any way.
Jews believe that Christianity has moved away from the laws of the same G-D, the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and jacob and I guess you can easily say the G-d of Jesus too as he himself confirmed it. It is only in subsequent years that a different Christianity was ‘constructed’. But there is no doubt that both streams claim to adhere to the same deity.
As far as I know, Mohammad also claims adherence to the same G-D. He claims he is only adding to the law.
We have a problem though. When we compare laws of this god who is supposed to be the same deity, we clearly see that they have next to nothing in common. In fact, I believe the laws of the Koran cannot possibly emanate from the one and same deity.
As for the word “Allah” I believe it can be perceived in 2 ways.
a) the “generic” way, it is the one word used to refer to “G-D”
This is indeed the common use even today. Speaking to a muslim, anyone whatever his religion and his god could say ‘my allah’ or “Allah” meaning his god.
b) the “Allah” being the name of G-D himself as perceived by Muslims and defined by the Koran, the one whose laws are totally unrelated to the laws of the OT and NT.
Lef said
MMahmud said
Allah was worshiped by Arabian Jews Christians and Pagans. Christians would say Jesus Christ is Allah. So your guess is beyond absurd. Jews were called God Allah before Muhammad was even born let alone started preaching.
As for Judeo-Christian G-d, well that’s a bit funny. Jews completely reject what Christians worship in every way possible. Judeo-Christian refers to coming from the same tradition but that they are as different as desert and sea in view of God is not up for debate.
“I wouldn’t say it came much later in Arabic. Perhaps the version at the time 600 was around that however.”
Hebrew – as a language with a propper alphabet – predates Greek, let alone Arabic which for lack of other information we can position around 400 CE.
“Allah was worshiped by Arabian Jews Christians and Pagans. Christians would say Jesus Christ is Allah. So your guess is beyond absurd. Jews were called God Allah before Muhammad was even born let alone started preaching.”
What is your objective historical evidence that “Allah” was worshipped by Jews, Christians and Pagans … ?
You cannot use what Islam says today as evidence in any way.
Jews believe that Christianity has moved away from the laws of the same G-D, the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and jacob and I guess you can easily say the G-d of Jesus too as he himself confirmed it. It is only in subsequent years that a different Christianity was ‘constructed’. But there is no doubt that both streams claim to adhere to the same deity.
As far as I know, Mohammad also claims adherence to the same G-D. He claims he is only adding to the law.
We have a problem though. When we compare laws of this god who is supposed to be the same deity, we clearly see that they have next to nothing in common. In fact, I believe the laws of the Koran cannot possibly emanate from the one and same deity.
As for the word “Allah” I believe it can be perceived in 2 ways.
a) the “generic” way, it is the one word used to refer to “G-D”
This is indeed the common use even today. Speaking to a muslim, anyone whatever his religion and his god could say ‘my allah’ or “Allah” meaning his god.b) the “Allah” being the name of G-D himself as perceived by Muslims and defined by the Koran, the one whose laws are totally unrelated to the laws of the OT and NT.
It isn’t that a distinct diety named “Allah” was being worshipped by others. As stated earlier, Allah is just the Arabic equivalent of the supreme god. It’s like saying the Biblical Jews didn’t worship anything called “God”, they worshiped Ywh. Well of course they didn’t, neither did they worship anything called Allah (though they do use the equivalent etymological word in Hebrew). So yes, Arabic speaking Jews, Christians, and pagans all referred to the supreme god as Allah. This has never been argued against historically so I’m not sure why you are surprised by this. It’s very clear from the Quran itself that all the Arabic speaking people around Muhammad understood perfectly well who Allah was and that it was the same word that they were all using for the supreme god.
As for the laws of the Quran and Biblical laws differing, again I’m not sure how you come to this conclusion. Let me summarize the Quranic claim:
-“Allah” is the generic title used to refer to the supreme god and besides him there are no others.
-He is called by many names which are attributes. These have parallels in the Hebrew bible. The Almighty, the Merciful, etc.
-He is the same being that sent messengers of old. Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Jesus, etc.
-All messengers had the same core message: There is no God but the One God.*
-He brought out the children of Israel from Egypt
-He gave them the torah
-All of the ten commandments have parallels in the Quran.
-The Noahide laws are all found in the Quran
*For a parallel of this in the Bible, look at the Shema Israel passage:
Shehma Yisrael Adonai Ehloheynoo Adonai Ehkhad
Hear o Israel, the Lord is your God. The Lord is One.
If this was translated to Arabic, it would be something like this:
Sami’na ya Israel Al-Rabbu Ilahunna. Al-Rabbu hu Ahad
Now let’s look for Quranic parallels.
In the Quran:
Qul hu allahu ahad
Say: He is God the One.
Innama ilahumu Allahu allathee la ilaha illa huwa.
Your god is only God, than Whom there is no other god.
Allah is simply “The God.” This is the same type of naming as the Sky Daddies of Jupiter, Zeus Pater, or Dyaus Pita in the IndoEuropean language family. So we have Allah in Arabic, and El in ancient Hebrew . Of course we are instructed that the god of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel is El when he speaks to Moses. In other words Yahweh and El are the same as the story of Moses is written (800 BC? who knows). So El is supreme. or call him Allah.
OR perhaps think of it this way.
Yahweh is a name for a God. El or Allah simply means God. Allah is Allah is a tautology. God is God. Different languages.
Here is a bit from the etymology of the word God, which in no way originates from the middle east semitic languages.
Originally a neuter noun in Germanic, the gender shifted to masculine after the coming of Christianity. Old English god probably was closer in sense to Latin numen. A better word to translate deus might have been Proto-Germanic *ansuz, but this was used only of the highest deities in the Germanic religion, and not of foreign gods, and it was never used of the Christian God. It survives in English mainly in the personal names beginning in Os-.
Saying Allah is God is the same as saying Friday is Viernes. Just different languages.
“The question is absurd.
Arabic came MUCH LATER after Aramaic as the denomination…”
how do you know it came much later?
the arabic word for “he wrote” is ka ta ba
did the arabs start saying ka ta ba after the existence of aramaic?
did the arabs start saying ilah AFTER the jews said eloh?
Lef said
MMahmud said
Allah was worshiped by Arabian Jews Christians and Pagans. Christians would say Jesus Christ is Allah. So your guess is beyond absurd. Jews were called God Allah before Muhammad was even born let alone started preaching.
As for Judeo-Christian G-d, well that’s a bit funny. Jews completely reject what Christians worship in every way possible. Judeo-Christian refers to coming from the same tradition but that they are as different as desert and sea in view of God is not up for debate.
“I wouldn’t say it came much later in Arabic. Perhaps the version at the time 600 was around that however.”
Hebrew – as a language with a propper alphabet – predates Greek, let alone Arabic which for lack of other information we can position around 400 CE.
“Allah was worshiped by Arabian Jews Christians and Pagans. Christians would say Jesus Christ is Allah. So your guess is beyond absurd. Jews were called God Allah before Muhammad was even born let alone started preaching.”
What is your objective historical evidence that “Allah” was worshipped by Jews, Christians and Pagans … ?
You cannot use what Islam says today as evidence in any way.
Jews believe that Christianity has moved away from the laws of the same G-D, the G-d of Abraham, Isaac and jacob and I guess you can easily say the G-d of Jesus too as he himself confirmed it. It is only in subsequent years that a different Christianity was ‘constructed’. But there is no doubt that both streams claim to adhere to the same deity.
As far as I know, Mohammad also claims adherence to the same G-D. He claims he is only adding to the law.
We have a problem though. When we compare laws of this god who is supposed to be the same deity, we clearly see that they have next to nothing in common. In fact, I believe the laws of the Koran cannot possibly emanate from the one and same deity.
As for the word “Allah” I believe it can be perceived in 2 ways.
a) the “generic” way, it is the one word used to refer to “G-D”
This is indeed the common use even today. Speaking to a muslim, anyone whatever his religion and his god could say ‘my allah’ or “Allah” meaning his god.b) the “Allah” being the name of G-D himself as perceived by Muslims and defined by the Koran, the one whose laws are totally unrelated to the laws of the OT and NT.
Hi, Lef. I do so appreciate your comment but have to say, I don’t agree that all of the laws of the Koran are unrelated to the laws of the Old and New Testaments, for many (though not all) are similar; however, that the God of Judeo-Christianity and Islam are not the same is made obvious, in my opinion, by the absence of “the name” of God, in Islam, that being YHVH. Islam’s god has no such name. He is known by his title. His title is his name; whereas the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob indeed has a name, separate and apart from his title.
i quote :
Well, the expression is Hebrew not Arabic. The first part comes from <hll> menaing to praise in Hebrew but to shout in Arabic. The last part is Yah which is an abrreviated form of the taboo divine name Yahweh from the root <hwy> meaning “be, become” in Hebrew but “tp fall” in Arabic. The Hebrew Divine Name is behind the Sufi invoaction ya: hu: etymolgized by the Sufis as ya: (vocative) and hu: “Divine Name”. There is an early tradition in Islam that there is a secret name of God known only to the prophets. Some early commentators read la; ‘ila:ha ‘illa huwa in the Qur’an as la: ‘ila:ha ‘illa: hu: ; considering hu: as this secret Divine Name
my comment: we don’t even know how to pronounce the verb which has created the sound “yahweh”
“yahweh” is a scholarly creation, right the jews thought it was sacrilegious to pronounce the name, right?
how did a verb become a noun for a god called yhwh?
“yahu” yaweh” ? “yahwee”
how many pronunciations of this name that this god couldn’t properly communicate?
is it also a possibility that muhammads understanding of monotheism did not allow him to accept the name yhwh as true name of god because when biblical passages were read to him, he clearly saw yhwh as a god with other gods?
i quote:
Gods with yhwhs
by quoting 1 Samuel 7:9-10 alongside 2 Kings 3:27, and the connection is obvious:
2 Kings 3:27 is fascinating, it truly shows that Israel did know of other gods (according to the ancient that would intervene for their followers. Most of the time when I have a discussion about the history of the Jewish beliefs and that they were not always monotheistic, people tell me that these gods spoken of in the bible are just false/not real gods. But here in this scripture you have one of these gods other then YHVH intervening against Israel.
So Samuel took a sucking lamb and offered it as a whole burnt-offering to Yahweh; Samuel cried out to Yahweh for Israel, and Yahweh answered him. As Samuel was offering up the burnt-offering, the Philistines drew near to attack Israel; but Yahweh thundered with a mighty voice that day against the Philistines and threw them into confusion; and they were routed before Israel. (1 Sam 7:9-10)
Then he [Mesha] took his firstborn son who was to succeed him, and offered him as a burnt-offering on the wall. And great wrath came upon Israel, so they withdrew from him and returned to their own land. (2 Kings 3:27)
Now that I have more time, I would like to show, with appeal to scholarly sources and the biblical text, that Israel was not always monotheistic (as expressed in passages like Isaiah 44:6, Deuteronomy 32:39, and Isaiah 45:5), and previously took for granted the existence of other gods.
Deuteronomy 32:8-9 reads in the NRSV:
Quote:
8 When the Most High apportioned the nations, when he divided humankind, he fixed the boundaries of the peoples according to the number of the gods; 9 Yahweh’s own portion was his people, Jacob his allotted share.
We know from the Ugaritic (Ras Shamra) tablets that the Canaanite god El fathered 70 gods; this background informs about Deuteronomy 32:8-9. Mark S. Smith writes on page 49 of The Origins of Biblical Monotheism, my emphasis:
Quote:
…the texts of the Septuagint and the Dead Sea Scrolls show an Israelite polytheism that clearly focuses on the central importance of Yahweh for Israel within the larger scheme of the world, yet this larger scheme provides a place for all the other gods in the world. Moreover, even if this text is quite mute about the god who presides over the whole arrangement, it does maintain a place for such a god who is not Yahweh. The title Elyon (“Most High”) seems to denote the figure of El (called El Elyon in Genesis 14:18-22); he is par excellence not only at Ugarit but also in Psalm 82. The author of Psalm 82 wishes to depose this older theology, as the Israelite God is called to assume a new role as judge of all the world. Yet at the same time, Psalm 82, like Deuteronomy 32:8-9, preserves the outlines of the older Israelite theology it is rejecting.
Here is Smith’s comment on Psalm 82, pp 155-156 of the same book, again my emphasis:
Quote:
…the form of older Israelite (reduced) polytheism known from Psalm 82 casts Yahweh in an explicit divine council scene not as its head, who is instead left decidedly mute or left undescribed (which is probably the reason it survived the later collapsing of the different tiers). Psalm 82 begins:
God (elohim) stands in the assembly of El/divine council (adat el), Among
the divinities (elohim) He pronounces judgment.
Here the figure God takes his stand in the assembly. The name God was understood in the tradition, and perhaps at the time of the text’s original composition as well, to be none other than Yahweh; the name El seems to be involved with the expression “assembly of El” (preferable to “divine assembly,” given El’s title, Elyon, in verse 6). In any case, the assembly consists of all the gods of the world, for all those other gods are condemned to death in verse 6:
I myself presumed that You are gods, Sons of the Most High (Elyon), Yet like humans you will die, And fall like any prince.
A prophetic voice emerges in verse 8, calling for God (elohim) to assume the role of judge of all the earth:
Arise, O God, judge the world; For you inherit all the nations.
Here Yahweh in effect assumes the task of all gods to rule their own nations. Verse 6 calls the gods “sons of Elyon,” probably a title of El at an early point in biblical tradition (Genesis 14:18-20)…Psalm 82 preserves a tradition that casts the god of Israel not in the role of the presiding god of the pantheon but as one of his sons. Each of these sons has a different nation as his ancient patrimony (or family inheritance) and therefore serves as its ruler. Then verse 6 calls on Yahweh to arrogate to himself the traditional inheritance of all the other gods: all the nations.
Richard Elliott Friedman, in Commentary on the Torah, page 667-668, paperback edition, concurs. He writes regarding Deuteronomy 32:8:
Quote:
…the Greek text reads “to the number of the angels of God.” And there are cases in which bene elohim are thought to be the angels (Gen 6:2; Job 1:6). It is likely that the Greek translator had the “children of the gods” and changed it to “angels of God” to establish that these were in fact the angels and not the pagan gods. On this understanding of the bene elohim, God allots an angels to each of the nations but retains Israel for himself.
I believe that Psalm 82 is particularly relevant to this matter…And note that it refers to God as “the Highest” (elyon), as in our verse here in the Song of Moses (and it refers to the gods as the children of the Highest); and it ends with God giving legacies to the nations (82:8)–which is also what our verse here says: “When the Highest gave nations legacies…” It is likely, therefore, that the passage in the Song of Moses reflects the idea of Psalm 82: that there were once lesser gods along with YHWH, and that each was the god of a people, but they were inadequate, and they no longer exist.
John Day, in The Anchor Bible Dictionary entry “Canaan, Religion of,” Volume 1, page 835, my emphasis:
Quote:
In his identification with El, Yahweh also appropriated the “sons of El,” so that “the sons of God” formed his heavenly court (cf. Job 1:6; 2:1). The notion that they were seventy in number lived on, since Deut 32:8 states that “the Most High…fixed the bounds of the people according to the number of the sons of God (so LXX; 4QDeut), from which evolved in Jewish apocalyptic literature the notion of seventy guardian angels of the nations. Thus, as absolute monotheism took over from monolatry in Israel, those who had originally been in the pantheon of the gods were demoted to the status of angels.
This new understanding, that angels, rather than gods rule the nations, finds expression in Sirach 17:17 and Daniel 10:
Quote:
Daniel 10:13, 20-21
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia opposed me twenty-one days. So Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, and I left him there with the prince of the kingdom of Persia…20 Then he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? Now I must return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I am through with him, the prince of Greece will come. 21 But I am to tell you what is inscribed in the book of truth. There is no one with me who contends against these princes except Michael, your prince.
Quote:
Sirach 17:17:
17 He appointed a ruler for every nation, but Israel is the Lord’s own portion.
The belief that country had a corresponding god is found in several places in the OT.
Quote:
Judges 11:23-24:
{Jephthah speaking to the king of the Ammonites}: 23 So now Yahweh, the God of Israel, has conquered the Amorites for the benefit of his people Israel. Do you intend to take their place? 24 Should you not possess what your god Chemosh gives you to possess? And should we not be the ones to possess everything that Yahweh our God has conquered for our benefit?
The text is somewhat confused, because Chemosh was actually the god of the Moabites, and Milcom was the god of the Ammonites (see 1 Kings 11:5, 33), but the point remains, and the belief that what transpired with the gods in heaven impacted earthly events was also believed by other ANE inhabitants, including the Moabites, as evidenced by the Moabite Stone, my emphasis:
Quote:
And I made this high place for Kemosh in Qarhar . . . because of the deliverance of Mesha, and because he has saved me from all the kings and because he caused me to see [my desire] upon all who hated me. Omri, king of Israel — he oppressed Moab many days, because Chemosh was angry with his land.
Compare the language used by Jeremiah in his oracle against Moab:
Jeremiah 48:1a, 7:
Quote:
Concerning Moab.
Thus says Yahweh of hosts, the God of Israel…7 Surely, because you trusted in your strongholds and your treasures, you also shall be taken; Chemosh shall go out into exile, with his priests and his attendants.
Here is the oracle against Ammon, from Jeremiah 49:1:
Quote:
Concerning the Ammonites. Thus says Yahweh: Has Israel no sons? Has he no heir? Why then has Milcom dispossessed Gad, and his people settled in its towns?
The prophet Micah’s vision of the future allowed for each nation to retain its non-Israelite identity and worship:
Quote:
Micah 4:1-5:
In days to come the mountain of Yahweh’s house shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and shall be raised up above the hills. Peoples shall stream to it, 2 and many nations shall come and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of Yahweh, to the house of the God of Jacob; that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths.” For out of Zion shall go forth instruction, and the word of Yahweh from Jerusalem. 3 He shall judge between many peoples, and shall arbitrate between strong nations far away; they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more; 4 but they shall all sit under their own vines and under their own fig trees, and no one shall make them afraid; for the mouth of Yahweh of hosts has spoken. 5 For all the peoples walk, each in the name of its god, but we will walk in the name of Yahweh our God forever and ever.
end quote
It’s not particularly hard to understand. Contemporary Arab speaking Jews, Christians and traditional pagans all worshipped a God they called Allah. Arab speaking Jews called the God who freed their ancestors Allah, Christians called Jesus Christian Allah, and Arab pagans put Allah at the very top of their pantheon as King of all gods and the rest of the universe.
Contemporary Jews, Christians and Arab pagans all worshipped and referred to a deity named Allah before Muhammad was even born.
So despite lef’s desperate insistence otherwise, from the perspective of someone who doesn’t have an agenda, yes, Allah is GOD, or at least GOD is the English equivalent.
Now if we want to get into theological claims, that is of course a different issue.
God, or as we say in the south, Gawd, has Germanic roots. Jesus would never understand what you were saying. Same with Jehovah. These are Indo European constructs that relate us to the Semitic languages used by the ancient Hebrews, Jesus himself, and Mohamed. The New Testament was written in Greek using a Greek translation of the Old Testament as the basis for JEsus fulfilling prophecy, so no wonder it is a mess.
Anyway, in the Semitic language family we can start with Akkadian, which was in use for trade and religion well into Assyrian rule. Then we see Aramaic come into being as well as west Semitic languages such as Ugaritic and Hebrew. These are close cousins. The Lingua franca WAS Akkadian, then Aramaic. Traders in Jerusalem most likely knew Akkadian and Egyptian in the time of Abraham (if he existed), Ugaritic and Egyptian in the time of Moses, then Hebrew, Egyptian and possibly Aramaic (though it would not have been as common), then Aramaic and Egyptian. Aramaic dominated the landscape for something like 2000 years, until Arabic become dominant in the region.
Now when the Quran was being written, near the days of Mohamed himself, the spoken language was Arabic but Arabic as a written language was not yet settled (much as later Jews reinvented the Hebrew language). So the Quran may have been originally written in Aramaic!
Anyway, Allah is a title, God is a title, Yahweh is a name of a particular god. Muslims lay claim to being the only monotheism because naming a God Yahweh implies that there are other gods. Plus, there are other and active gods in the Bible.
Allah is the God of the Jews.
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