Correction:
The battle with Jabin was not under Joshua, before the historical death of Ramesses the Great. It was under one of the Judges, Deborah.
So, the battle w/ Jabin , not being a war of Joshua, cannot be used for dating the Exodus, the Wilderness Tradition, or the Conquest under Joshua (as opposed to military leaders called Judges). It can be used for dating Judges. Yes, Judges can be Late Bronze Age but not the Exodus. In fact Ramesses II /the Great’s topographical list including Jabin MEANS he is not the pharaoh of the exodus because the Israelite war with Jabin was not an event of the Exodus but an event after the death of both Moses and Joshua.
Charles R. Krahmalkov
The accounts in Judges 4 and 5 thus contain specific historical and geographical information about the Late Bronze Age whose accuracy is dramatically validated by an Egyptian document of that time. There indeed was a king named Jabin. The places mentioned in the Biblical accounts did in fact exist at the time. None of these pieces of information was fabricated.
Steefen
The Exodus from Dedumose
The Exodus/Expulsion of the Hyksos
The Exodus from Akhet-aten
The biblical Exodus from Ramesses II/the Great
Krahmalkov is saying there was an Israelite battle against Jabin/Yabin. (This king appears in the topographical list of Ramesses the Great, Ramesses II.)
This was not a war of Joshua. It appears in the book of Judges.
The Book of Judges derives its title from the 12 heroes of Israel whose deeds it records. They were not magistrates. They were military leaders. They exercised their activities in the interval of time between the death of Joshua and the institution of the monarchy in Israel.
Joshua was born in Egypt before the Exodus. Let’s say he was 20 years of age at the time of the Exodus. He died at 110.
If the Exodus dates to 1455 BCE, then he was born 1475 BCE and died 1365 BCE.
King David reigned 1010 – 970.
King Solomon reigned 970 – 931.
1365 to 1010 is 355 years from the death of Joshua to monarchy in Israel.
Ramesses II/The Great reigned 1279 – 1213.
The war with Jabin happened between 1279 and 1213, say 1260, making it 105 years after the death of Joshua, 105 years into the time of the Judges.
Dr. Ehrman,
Charles Krahmalkov in a Sep/Oct 1994 Biblical Archaeology Review article, “Exodus Itinerary Confirmed by Egyptian Evidence,” states Ramesses II / the Great had a topographical list at Karnak which mentions Jabin, the king who went to war with the military leader Deborah, after the death of Joshua. This supports the claim Ramesses the Great was associated not with the Generally Accepted Date (GAD) of pi-Ramesses slaves led away by Moses in Exodus. Ramesses the Great is not the pharaoh of oppression. Ramesses is evidentially linked to the book of Judges, Chapters 4 and 5.
In the topographical list of Ramesses II at Karnak that we have already mentioned, a route through the Jezreel Valley is described as follows: Qerumin-Qishon of Jabin (Ybn)-Shimshon-Hadasht.
Do you agree with Krahmalkov that the list of Ramesses II refers to Jabin whose army general Sisera was defeated by Deborah and as a result Ramesses II must be linked with his list to the time of Judges and cannot be the pharaoh of the Exodus?
Bart Ehrman
No. I can’t imagine any bona fide Hebrew Bible scholar does. If you hear of one, though, let me know.
Steefen
A world leader publishes a topographical list including contemporary municipalities and their leaders.
This dates him, rather than incorrectly dating him generations earlier.
Bona fide Hebrew Bible scholars and archaeologists know the difference between tradition and accurate history and will publicly make statements that side with evidence, objectivity and reason over political consensus with tradition.
I, personally, will not insult the intelligence or reputation of bona fide Hebrew Bible scholars and archaeologists, or even undergraduate students, but if the Biblical Archaeology Society publishes an article to the contrary, it will be read with interest.
JeffreyFavot said
The question must be answered. How did the Israelites conquer the land? Saying they were indigenous is lazy and has no evidence. Also, what would they gain by creating a history that didn’t happen? Most the account doesn’t portray the Hebrew people in a positive light.
Jeffrey, welcome.
There is no archeological evidence for the conquest of Palestine as depicted in the Hebrew Bible just as there is no evidence for the Exodus as described there. But it’s not as simple as all that – either an invasion or indigenous peoples. All we have to do is look at the map. There is a reason they call the region the Levant. It’s been a crossroads since before the Bronze Age. The Israelites were probably an amalgam of indigenous Canaanites and Semitic peoples moving in from Egypt. As these populations merged they brought their traditions and legends with them. That’s what both the archeological and cultural evidence shows.
JeffreyFavot said
The question must be answered. How did the Israelites conquer the land?
Steefen
It is an established fact that the Hyksos conquered Palestine.
It is an established fact that the Egyptians conquered Palestine: all of the kings of Palestine payed tribute to the 18th Dynasty pharaohs.
It is an established fact that Egypt, not King Saul, not King David (1010-970 BCE), but Pharaoh Si-amun (978-960 BCE) of the 21st dynasty conquered the Philistine city of Gezer.
The subgroup of Hebrews known as the descendants of Jacob/Israel who left Avaris were too small of a group to conquer Canaan, especially with the descent of the Hyksos from Canaan when the Israelites were leaving the Egyptian delta. That is probably why they turned south in Sinai and went so far south into Sinai–to avoid the Hyksos. Staying in the Sinai Wilderness for 40 years was not enough time for the Hyksos to blow over.
JeffreyFavot
Saying they were indigenous is lazy and has no evidence.
Steefen
Isra-El: El was the top god of the Canaanite pantheon of gods.
Jacob/Isra-el was from Canaan.
It is an established fact that Egypt, not King Saul, not King David (1010-970 BCE), but Pharaoh Si-amun (978-960 BCE) of the 21st dynasty conquered the Philistine city of Gezer.
Steefen
1 Kings, Chapter 9, Verses:
16 Pharaoh king of Egypt had attacked and captured Gezer. He had set it on fire, killed the Canaanites who lived in the city, and given it as a dowry to his daughter, Solomon’s wife.
17 So Solomon rebuilt Gezer, Lower Beth-horon,
18 Baalath, and Tamar in the Wilderness of Judah,
19 as well as all the store cities that Solomon had for his chariots and horses— whatever he desired to build in Jerusalem, Lebanon, and throughout the land of his dominion.
Steefen said
JeffreyFavot said
The question must be answered. How did the Israelites conquer the land?
Steefen
It is an established fact that the Hyksos conquered Palestine.
It is an established fact that the Egyptians conquered Palestine: all of the kings of Palestine payed tribute to the 18th Dynasty pharaohs.
It is an established fact that Egypt, not King Saul, not King David (1010-970 BCE), but Pharaoh Si-amun (978-960 BCE) of the 21st dynasty conquered the Philistine city of Gezer.
The subgroup of Hebrews known as the descendants of Jacob/Israel who left Avaris were too small of a group to conquer Canaan, especially with the descent of the Hyksos from Canaan when the Israelites were leaving the Egyptian delta. That is probably why they turned south in Sinai and went so far south into Sinai–to avoid the Hyksos. Staying in the Sinai Wilderness for 40 years was not enough time for the Hyksos to blow over.
JeffreyFavot
Saying they were indigenous is lazy and has no evidence.
Steefen
Isra-El: El was the top god of the Canaanite pantheon of gods.
Jacob/Israel was from Canaan.
My understanding is that the Exodus, as portrayed in the Bible, never happened. But that is not to say there are real events, or historical kernels behind the story. The real events are determined by archaeological findings. Joshua burns Jericho after its defensive wall collapses. Find a collapsed wall and burned city and we have found Joshua! Kenyon found the LAST wall of Jericho collapsed due to an earthquake, she noted with the wall’s collapses the city of Jericho was severely burned. She attributed this to Pharaoh Ahmoses I of Egypt, who conquered Canaan after expelling the Hyksos circa 1550 BC. This is NOT the 13th century BC Exodus promoted by so many scholars to day, like, James k. Hoffmeier and Kenneth Kitchen. The Bible also informs us that Israel under Moses, conquers Moab, killing its king Sihon the Amorite. Moses then awards various Moabite cities to the tribes of Gad and Reuben. The Moabite cities of Heshbon and Eleahleh are rebuilt and claimed by Reuben. When excavated these two sites were no earlier than Iron Age I (1200-1100 BC), they did NOT exist in the 13th century BC, the Exodus World proposed by Hoffmeier and Kitchen. It is my understanding that two events, separated in time by 300 years, the 1550 BC Hyksos Expulsion from Egypt and Fall of Jericho and its burning, was conflated with the Iron Age I settlements in Moab and Canaan, on either side of the Jordan River. If Kenyon is right about Egyptians burning Jericho after its wall collapsed then, this burning was recast as Joshua’s doing in the Bible. It is impossible for Joshua to burn Jericho in 1550 BC and be present for Elealeh and Heshbon’s foundings in Iron Age I (1200-1100 BC). The Exodus has to be fiction! The Bible has Joshua and Moses as living in a Philistine World, and from archaeology we know the Philistines did not settle in Canaan until circa 1175 BC in the reign of Pharaoh Rameses III, who defeated their attempt as the Pelest, to conquer Egypt. The Philistines are present in Canaan in an Iron Age I World (1200-1100 BC), they are NOT present in a Middle Bronze Age II World (Jericho’s burning being MBII).
Sapiensape43 said
Steefen said
JeffreyFavot said
The question must be answered. How did the Israelites conquer the land?
Steefen
It is an established fact that the Hyksos conquered Palestine.
It is an established fact that the Egyptians conquered Palestine: all of the kings of Palestine payed tribute to the 18th Dynasty pharaohs.
It is an established fact that Egypt, not King Saul, not King David (1010-970 BCE), but Pharaoh Si-amun (978-960 BCE) of the 21st dynasty conquered the Philistine city of Gezer.
The subgroup of Hebrews known as the descendants of Jacob/Israel who left Avaris were too small of a group to conquer Canaan, especially with the descent of the Hyksos from Canaan when the Israelites were leaving the Egyptian delta. That is probably why they turned south in Sinai and went so far south into Sinai–to avoid the Hyksos. Staying in the Sinai Wilderness for 40 years was not enough time for the Hyksos to blow over.
JeffreyFavot
Saying they were indigenous is lazy and has no evidence.
Steefen
Isra-El: El was the top god of the Canaanite pantheon of gods.
Jacob/Israel was from Canaan.
My understanding is that the Exodus, as portrayed in the Bible, never happened. But that is not to say there are real events, or historical kernels behind the story. The real events are determined by archaeological findings. Joshua burns Jericho after its defensive wall collapses. Find a collapsed wall and burned city and we have found Joshua! Kenyon found the LAST wall of Jericho collapsed due to an earthquake, she noted with the wall’s collapses the city of Jericho was severely burned. She attributed this to Pharaoh Ahmoses I of Egypt, who conquered Canaan after expelling the Hyksos circa 1550 BC. This is NOT the 13th century BC Exodus promoted by so many scholars to day, like, James k. Hoffmeier and Kenneth Kitchen. The Bible also informs us that Israel under Moses, conquers Moab, killing its king Sihon the Amorite. Moses then awards various Moabite cities to the tribes of Gad and Reuben. The Moabite cities of Heshbon and Eleahleh are rebuilt and claimed by Reuben. When excavated these two sites were no earlier than Iron Age I (1200-1100 BC), they did NOT exist in the 13th century BC, the Exodus World proposed by Hoffmeier and Kitchen. It is my understanding that two events, separated in time by 300 years, the 1550 BC Hyksos Expulsion from Egypt and Fall of Jericho and its burning, was conflated with the Iron Age I settlements in Moab and Canaan, on either side of the Jordan River. If Kenyon is right about Egyptians burning Jericho after its wall collapsed then, this burning was recast as Joshua’s doing in the Bible. It is impossible for Joshua to burn Jericho in 1550 BC and be present for Elealeh and Heshbon’s foundings in Iron Age I (1200-1100 BC). The Exodus has to be fiction! The Bible has Joshua and Moses as living in a Philistine World, and from archaeology we know the Philistines did not settle in Canaan until circa 1175 BC in the reign of Pharaoh Rameses III, who defeated their attempt as the Pelest, to conquer Egypt. The Philistines are present in Canaan in an Iron Age I World (1200-1100 BC), they are NOT present in a Middle Bronze Age II World (Jericho’s burning being MBII).
How does one account for the Bible portraying Jericho’s defensive walls falling and the city’s being burned circa 1406 BC (cf. 1 Kings 6:1), when this occurred circa 1550 BC according to Kenyon? How does one explain away the founding of Heshbon and nearby Elealeh in Moab, and their being given to Gad and Reuben by Moses, but they did not exist before Iron Age I (1200-1100 BC)??? The answer is quite simple! The biblical author DID NOT KNOW THE AGE OF ANY OF THE SITES appearing in his Exodus and Conquest narratives! It was not until Sir Flinders Petrie founded the science of Pottery Typologies that ancient sites could be approximately dated. The biblical narrator did NOT have access to this Pottery Typology.
The Biblical narrator, could then, IN ERROR, include any ancient site in his Exodus and Conquest narrative that was in existence in his day (the Babylonian Exile 587-537 BC is when I date the narrative). THUS ANY SITE UP TO AND INCLUDING THE 6th CENTURY BC COULD BE INCLUDED IN THE EXODUS/CONQUEST NARRATIVES, this would embrace sites from Stone Age, Early Bronze, Middle Bronze, Late Bronze, Iron I and Iron II. And this is just what archaeology has revealed! Ai, modern Et-Tell, is Early Bronze Age (2500 BC), Arad is also Early Bronze Age (2300 BC), Jericho’s fallen walls and burning is Middle Bronze II, Heshbon and Eleahleh are Iron Age I-II. This situation has led to different scholars suggesting different periods of time for the Exodus/Conquest based on their understanding (or misunderstanding) of the archaeological evidence.
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