Stephen said
Hey Jennybee I just happened to be reading the Hebrew scholar Robert Alter’s new translation of Daniel* and he says the scholarly consensus seems to be that the “anointed one” who will be cut off is a reference to Onias III, the last legitimate Zadokite priest who was murdered in 171 BCE.  I’m not competent to have an opinion but it is useful to remember that Daniel is an apocalypse that pretends to be set around 600 BCE predicting events in the future but it was actually composed sometime in the second century before Christ during the time when Antiochus IV Epiphanes attempted to suppress the Temple cult.  That’s why you get all that “weeks of years” stuff.  You can tell it’s not set in the earlier period because the writer gets all the real history wrong and much of the book was written in Aramaic rather than Hebrew which would be utterly anachronistic in 600 BCE.   

*Strong as Death is Love (Ruth, Esther, Jonah, Daniel, Song of Songs translation with commentary)  

Will have to add that to the reading list … whilst I realized it’s a later work trying to pass off as a earlier “prediction” I have read so many different ideas I got a little dizzy lol. 

jennybee said
So true! I’ll get you a dramamine  I actually read something online where one website was trying to say that the Book of Daniel was predicting Hitler.

Better make it a couple lol

It is one of those I had pretty much given up on … Nice to see you ease your way in with a simple one 

Yea been there lol … Those sites can be addictive as they give you a glimpse into the minds that write them.

I try and balance things out by reading books by authors like Rodney Stark. Stops the rot setting in 

Some years ago i read a book called “Combating Cult Mind Control” by Steven Hassan. It deals with his own experience within the “Moonies” . I read some reviews by ex Jehovah Witness’s and Mormons that said the book had been a big help to them … So been the nosey so and so I am I did some research into both.

Long story short I kept encountering some websites that can only be described as extreme fundamentalist … Sort of made you want to shower after reading them. That got me into the habit of searching out less biassed material and also expanding the type of books I read.

Was worth the experiences though to see how some minds think.    

jennybee said
I usually watch the Heaven’s Gate cult on you tube–talk about mind control and how extreme religious beliefs can get!

That’s the “UFO” cult … your braver than me … must be getting soft in my old age 

This is an old topic, but I’ll ‘resurrect it’…the best evidence that the 70 weeks ends in about 164-163BC is this:

There are 7 ‘predictions’ in verses 26-27. All 7 of these predictions mirror events that took place starting in the year 171BC and ending in about 164BC. That is a 7-year period (verses 26-27 take place after the 62 weeks, which take place after the 7 weeks, and therefore are the 70th and final week). 7 years is a ‘week’–so it would be awfully coincidental to find all 7 of these events occurring in any 7-year period. This just happens to be the last 7 years in the life of Antiochus Epiphanes. And ‘Daniel’ is obviously obsessed with Antiochus, and for good reason, if he is writing during the end of his reign.

Three of these events are incredibly rare–the destruction of Jerusalem and the ‘sanctuary’–only occurred 3 times in all of Jewish history. 2nd, The ‘abomination of desolation’–only happened once for certain, but it could be argued that there were other ‘abominations of desolation’, and Jesus spoke of one in his future. 3rd, sacrifices are to stop in the midst of the week, or in some translations, for half a week (3 1/2 years). Antiochus was able to stop sacrifices for 3 years and 10 days.

All of these events related to Antiochus and the Seleucids, and their persecution of the Jews. 

I don’t want to repeat all of the evidence here; if you type into google ‘Daniel Seventy Weeks Infidels’ the fist link will take you to a page that explains all of this quite thoroughly and convincingly. Read the section on the Macabbean War. It’s not perfect, but it’s better than any explanation any conservative Christian has ever come up with. I think he got most of his information from Lacocque’s commentary. 

As regarding the translation problem in verse 25 (Is it 7 and 62 sevens, or 7 sevens, until the coming of ‘an anointed ruler’, or ‘Messiah the Prince’? See RSV translation for comparison.) According to many scholars, either translation is possible. But no one would say ‘there will be 7 and 62 sevens’; it would be like living in the year 1900 and predicting that man would land on the moon–in 7 and 62 years. They would say ‘in 69 years’. So if, as many Christians claim, that the starting point is 444 (or 457), even if Jesus is ‘the anointed’ who is cut off in verse 27…who could possibly this ‘anointed ruler’ who comes 7 sevens after the word to rebuild Jerusalem? There were no kings in Israel after the Babylonian captivity. There would have to be some significant ‘anointed ruler’ who did something significant around 400BCE. This is a huge problem for their position. 

Incidentally, one possible starting point of the prophecy is Isaiah 44:28/45:13. It is clearly predicted that Cyrus would rebuild Jerusalem–not just the temple, as some Christians claim. There isn’t a ‘decree’ in the bible, but Josephus quotes Cyrus as giving written permission for the Jews to return to rebuild the city. (See Cyrus the Great in the Bible in Wikipedia, very near the bottom of the page.) If this is the correct starting point, the 70 sevens start about 538BCE, a century earlier than Christians would prefer.