spiker said

col8lok8 said

I say that the question is what would Jesus’ audience have understood when he said ‘my words will certainly not pass away‘? Did Jesus’ audience understand that Jesus is saying that his words will pass away within their lifetime? No…,

 Yet that would be demonstrably wrong 

1.) We were discussing the statement recorded in Matt 24:34. It’s bizarre to claim that very statement is irrelevant to consideration of its meaning.

2.) As Craig Keener pointed out in The importance of context in Bible study ” The first readers of Mark could not flip over to Revelation to help them understand Mark; Revelation had not been written yet. The first readers of Galatians did not have a copy of the letter Paul wrote to Rome to help them understand it. ” 

And we can certainly add that Jesus audience could not whip out a copy of Matthew and turn to the “correct passage”; partly because, they very likely could not read and ore importantly Matthew didn’t exist till some 50 years later.

3.) The statement you offer no more affects the meaning of verse 34 than the first  verse of Genesis does. Verse 34 is qualified by the word UNTIL and is entirely different from the statement you want to stuff in its place: Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

The question of when the end will come is answered with Matthew chapter 24 verse 36,

Actually, I said not one thing about when the end would come. I did however, indicate that there was plenty of evidence in Jesus speech to show he thought it was going to happen very soon. Verse 35 and 36 are not relevant to understanding the meaning. This generation shall not pass does not mention a day or an hour, The address simply says the end is imminent, you will not die before seeing signs that the end is near.

DELIBERATELY? ahh I was waiting for the accusation of bad faith. Freudian slip?  

I agree with ‘the end is imminent’ and ‘you will not die before seeing signs that the end is near’. And of course people could not access books they did not have while the New Testament was being written. If a post-Matthew Luke-Acts existed in the years immediately following Paul’s house arrest, Mark and Matthew could have existed 30 or so years after Jesus’ death with Mark existing before Matthew. I don’t want to get into a discussion re dating the gospels. They didn’t die before seeing signs that the end is near. Indeed, one of the most important signs that the end is near came to them according to the writer of Luke-Acts. Excellent Jewish biblical scholar Dr Michael L. Brown (1995, p. 218), PhD in Near Eastern Languages and Literature – New York University, in his book Israel’s Divine Healer notes the following:

‘Peter in his Pentecost sermon changes Joel’s , “And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit” (Joel 2.28[3:1]) into, “In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit” (Ac 2:17). The baptism in the Spirit, accompanied by a miraculous gift of tongues, is seen as the fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy and has thus ushered in the end of the age, an era characterized by the infusion of the Holy Spirit in power (cf. Mt 3:11; Jn 7:37-39, for the “last days,” see 1Co 10:11; Heb 1:2a).’

What I don’t agree with is the assertion that Jesus thought the end would fully come within his lifetime, judgment and all.

The fact is that my statement that the judgment is inescapable and one can’t pass away from the judgement by dying is perfectly consistent with a Jewish apocalyptic worldview. The reason one should not think dying is to pass away from judgement is that all dead will be raised. The generation won’t pass away UNTIL they are judged, although they may certainly die (to die is to fall asleep – see Acts chapter 7 verse 60; 1 Thessalonians chapter 4) before they are judged. No one should think they can pass away ultimately until they are judged. They will be preserved for judgement. We have a word in verse 34 that can apply to words (verse 35) not just persons. Words from YHWH can be preserved by YHWH even if all the textual evidence was burned and people’s memories were entirely erased. The book of ** you do not have permission to see this link ** in the Hebrew Bible famously contains these words:

‘The grass dries up; the flower withers, but our God’s word will exist forever.’

It is quite plausible that Jesus was claiming to be YHWH in verse 35 (I’m aware the word for God in the Isaiah chapter 40 verse 8 is not YHWH, but verse 7 does contain the word YHWH). At the very least one can accept that Jesus is claiming his words are God’s since they will not pass away. In any case, Jesus in verse 34 is saying that this generation will exist in some form until the judgement (they won’t die and exist no more). It does not mean that they will not die. Death is the final enemy of all men. Jesus’ message, as presented by the gospel writers, was countering/opposing some groups in his day which did not believe in a general resurrection (Mark chapter 12 verse 8; Matthew chapter 22 verse 23; Luke chapter 20 verse 27; Acts chapter 23 verse 8). I am of course speaking about the Sadducees, and those in Jesus’ day who agreed with them that there was no resurrection, who were part of ‘this generation’ that needed to hear that they would be raised. Dying does not mean passing away (existing no more) and escaping judgement. It means preservation for judgement. No one from the generation Jesus was referring to would pass away until all these things have happened. Followers of Jesus are not to believe that those who have died exist no more but rather that all dead will be raised for judgement.

Reference

Brown, ML 1995, Israel’s Divine Healer, Zondervan, MI.

spiker said

col8lok8 said  “I agree with ‘the end is imminent’ and ‘you will not die before seeing signs that the end is near’. And of course people could not access books they did not have while the Bible was being written…”

Well imagine that! It only took saying the exact same thing,what 4, 5, 6 times to accomplish that feat! You’ve finally decided to agree that “… people could not access books they did not have while the Bible was being written.”  Who said miracles don’t happen!?
Yet,  neither Matthew or Acts was “being written” at the time of the fig tree speech. But that doesn’t stop you from making the exact same argument with one small change, hoping no one would be the wiser. To wit,

Excellent Jewish biblical scholar Dr Michael L. Brown (1995, p. 218), PhD Near Eastern Languages and Literature – New York University, in his book Israel’s Divine Healer notes the following:

‘In a well-known example of “realized eschatology” in the NT, Peter in his Pentecost sermon changes Joel’s , “And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit” (Joel 2.28[3:1]) into, “In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit” (Ac 2:17). The baptism in the Spirit, accompanied by a miraculous gift of tongues, is seen as the fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy and has thus ushered in the end of the age, an era characterized by the infusion of the Holy Spirit in power (cf. Mt 3:11; Jn 7:37-39, for the “last days,” see 1Co 10:11; Heb 1:2a).’

First, I highly doubt Brown was writing about the Fig Tree speech or that he would appreciate the quote mining. Leave aside the unreliable nature of Acts; a point, even Richard Bauckham concedes.But you want to determine the meaning of the fig tree speech by citing another book that wasn’t yet written referring to a speech that hadn’t,if ever, been given.

What I don’t agree with is the assertion that Jesus thought the end would fully come within his lifetime, judgment and all.

Two points, I never made such an assertion and you need to stop making stuff up. 2.) whether you agree is completely meaningless unless you can support that with actual, relevant evidence. 

The fact is that my statement that the judgment is inescapable and one can’t pass away from the judgement by dying is perfectly consistent with a Jewish apocalyptic worldview.

 

No it isn’t! No one in their right mind would have made such a bizarre claim.  

No of course the quote was not directly addressing the fig tree speech. The first century followers of Jesus saw signs the end was near. The chief sign they saw – according to the writer of Luke-Acts – was the coming of the Holy Spirit, from Jesus (who is considered by the New Testament to be YHWH himself pouring out his Spirit on all his people), upon those who follow Jesus which the quote is about. One of the signs of the last days (with the end near), after all, is that YHWH would pour out his Spirit on all his people as promised in Joel. The Hebrew scriptures contain accounts of the Spirit coming upon specific individuals and groups (often just for a time). At the same time the Hebrew scriptures holds out hope that it would come on all of YHWH’s people. The first statement I know of is one on the lips of Moses when he expresses his desire for all the YHWH’s people to have the Spirit of YHWH (Numbers chapter 11 verse 29b).

Your response to my statement, as fact, that ‘the judgment is inescapable and one can’t pass away from the judgement by dying is perfectly consistent with a Jewish apocalyptic worldview’ was underwhelming. It would not have been a ‘bizarre claim’ to make in the first century Jewish apocalyptic context. You have provided no evidence of it being ‘bizarre’.

spiker said

No of course the quote was not directly addressing the fig tree speech.

But that is precisely what we were discussing. The speech in Matthew 24:34. Specifically, what Jesus audience would have understood by the statement “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

I had argued that communication requires some common understanding between the communicator and his audience. Either that or the communicator, Jesus, in this case,would be terrible at communication. You responded to this by pointing to things that had absolutely no bearing on that question. Further, now you pretend something else was being discussed.

Evidence of it being bizarre!? First, I don’t need evidence to form an opinion or express it. Further,there is absolutely no record of anyone in first century Palestine, particularly, in the time frame in question, arguing that judgement would be escapable by dying .It is certainly not what was being discussed in the Fig Tree speech. In other words, you made it up as a way of avoiding the point in contention.

The Fig tree speech makes it quite clear that Jesus expected the kingdom to arrive within the lifetime of the people he was talking to, which is why he stated “this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened…”

Any other reading violates the basics of communication. So either he meant what he said and what the ACTUAL context(This is to say, the speech itself) makes clear or Jesus didn’t know how to communicate.

Inventing claims about whether judgement could be avoided by dying doesn’t change any of that. 

Again no one in their right mind would have made such a claim because it’s patently absurd.  

I gave you a specific example of a group of Jewish people who thought the dead would not be raised for judgement (and thus dying means escaping YHWH’s judgement [which might be said to frequently occur in this life]): the Sadducees. They were part of Jesus’ generation. They needed to hear that they would not escape judgement by dying. Judgement does not occur merely in this life but God would hold the Sadducees accountable for their excessive allegiances with Rome and their handling of the Temple. Where is the evidence that the Sadducees believed that after people died they would have to face a judgement? They most probably didn’t believe it. In fact, it is likely they didn’t believe in an afterlife at all. You are the one inventing claims. I have good reason to believe the Sadducees, and those who believed as they did, made such claims which were not absurd or bizarre in the first century.

No record? What do you call Mark chapter 12 verse 18, Matthew chapter 22 verse 23, Luke chapter 20 verse 27, Acts chapter 23 verse 8, and Josephus’ Jewish Antiquities 13.5.9.173? Josephus basically says that the Sadducees held that YHWH’s judgement was in this life (death is thus an escape, it is to pass away from YHWH’s judgement), and it takes the form of the various negative consequences within this life that people receive from foolish actions that they do within this life. Add to that the New Testament evidence of the Saduccees not believing in a resurrection of the dead for judgement, and you have a clear group Jesus could have been addressing with the idea that dying is not to pass away from judgement. Jesus was not a bad communicator. His principal idea on imminence was that the end would come totally unpredictably (as a thief in the night) and no one wold escape. The immortal YHWH, with the Son of Man, would bring it about at an unknown time of his own choosing and this generation will not escape or pass away from it by dying.

If you don’t believe me, here is the quote from Josephus’ Jewish Antiquities 13.5.9.173 (or Josephus 1999, p. 429, emphasis mine, words in square brackets mine):

‘And for the Sadducees, they take away fate [comparable to denial of the general resurrection as per New Testament verses, but also probably includes denial of final judgement or ultimate justice if that is part of what is described here as ‘fate’], and say there is no such thing, and that the events of human affairs are not at its [fate’s] disposal; but they suppose that all our actions are in our own power [comparable to a notion of free will], so that we are ourselves the causes of what is good, and receive what is evil [punishment/judgement during this life – remember they deny ‘fate’ and deny a general resurrection for YHWH’s judgement] from our own folly [foolish actions in this life].’

I think Wiley’s For Dummies series has some excellent books. One of them is Catherine M. Murphy’s (2008, pp. 106-203, emphasis mine, words in square brackets mine) book The Historical Jesus for Dummies in which she writes the following

‘The Sadducees … thought that the Torah alone – as interpreted by them – should guide faith and practice … later books [of the Hebrew Bible after the Torah] and traditions had led some Jews to believe in a final judgment and a resurrection … because they couldn’t stomach that the good suffered and the evil enjoyed the high life. The Sadducees rejected these notions, which meant that they didn’t believe in a resurrection of the dead (Matthew 22:23-33, Acts 23:6-10 … ). … The Sadducees … believed in human free will, not in fate or divine providence.‘

Reference:

** you do not have permission to see this link **

** you do not have permission to see this link **

spiker said

col8lok8 said  

I gave you a specific example of a group of Jewish people who thought the dead would not be raised for judgement (and thus dying means escaping YHWH’s judgement [which might be said to frequently occur in this life]): the Sadducees. They were part of Jesus’ generation.

Yet, that has absolutely no baring on what Jesus audience would have understood. Are you arguing that the fig tree speech was made to a group of Sadducees?  I don’t see any evidence that it was or that the Sadducees were Apocalypticists. Even your own source makes this clear. But the idea that the Sadducees believed they could escape something they did not believe in is, rather bizarre.

Yet again none of that addresses the point in contention. But, again, it does substantiate my point about how your responses  have absolutely no baring on the issue.  Was Jesus not intelligent enough to understand what the Sadducees were saying?   

You are misunderstanding. The Sadducees probably did believe in judgment of God in this life (taking the form of negative consequences resulting from evil/foolish actions and attitudes). Think 586 BCE. But to leave this life and for there to be no afterlife means passing away from God’s judgement since it doesn’t happen after death. Remember, for the Sadducees, there was no afterlife. Jesus was calling on them (asking them) to believe that they would not pass away until everything reached its fulfillment and the dead would be raised to face judgment. That is precisely why Jesus said they would not pass away. Of course the fig tree speech was addressing the Saduccees. There is little doubt that ‘this generation’ (Matthew chapter 24 verse 34) includes Sadducees of that generation. The generation Jesus was speaking of appears to be the people living at the time of Jesus. The Sadducees were living at the time in which Jesus lived. Hence, the Sadducees were among those addressed by the term ‘this generation’. There is no evidence that Jesus only meant his disciples/followers when he said ‘this generation’.