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Ezekiel and biblical chronology
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Vesa

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March 18, 2021 - 5:45 pm

In a book of Ezekiel 4:4-6 the prophet are acting out what will happen to babylonian captives. (If this is a real prediction after all). He was told that he should lie on his left and right side 390 and 40 days (not without a break obviously). This enactment represent the ”guilt” of Israel and Judah. 390 days for Israel and 40 days for Judah. And these days are meant to be years.  

How we can calculate those years? If we count back 390 years or 40 years, what we will find out? And from which date we start? And on top of it, i would like know if this ”prophesy” has anything to do with the destruction of Jerusalem in 586 bce?

I assume, that in order to understand the real meaning of those words, you need to have a deep knowledge of biblical chronology and history. Well i don’t have.

Is there some easy to read books written by bible scholars?

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Robert
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March 19, 2021 - 1:17 pm
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Robert
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March 21, 2021 - 5:15 pm
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Vesa

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March 21, 2021 - 5:29 pm

Thanks. I have inquired the matter from different sources. There seems to be various interpretations concerning starting points and ending points. Some argue, that starting point in a case of Israel was during Salomon’s reign and ending point destruction of Jerusalem. This statement is from the book Pure Worship (Watchtower and tract society):

””The 390 years of Israel’s error evidently began in 997 B.C.E., the year that the 12-tribe kingdom was divided into two parts. (1 Ki. 12:12-20) The 40 years of Judah’s sin likely began in 647 B.C.E., which was the year that Jeremiah was commissioned as a prophet to warn the kingdom of Judah, in clear-cut terms, about its coming destruction.”

One scholar say ( Frank W. Hardy) that 390 years started with the apostasy of King Jeroboam and ending point would be the year, when exiles returned to their land (928/27 B.C and 538/37 B.C).

In a case of Judea 40 year period, some say that it meant one generation.

So, which one of these explanations is most accurate?

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Robert
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March 21, 2021 - 5:34 pm
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Vesa

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March 21, 2021 - 7:03 pm

Hi. My previous post was before i saw your answer, sorry. Yes i agree, there are no easy solutions. 

Thanks

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Stephen
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March 22, 2021 - 12:34 pm

To say Ezekiel is a difficult text is the understatement of the year.  My go-to scholar ** you do not have permission to see this link ** generally agrees with Moshe Greenberg in this spot, calculating the 390 “days” from the erection of the Temple and the “House of Judah forty days” being an interpolation. 

Alter opens his fine introduction to his translation of Ezekiel with these words.   Ezekiel is surely the strangest of all the prophets.  And concludes,

Ezekiel clearly was not a stable person. The states of disturbance exhibited in his writing led him to a series of remarkable visionary experiences, at least several of which would be deeply inscribed in the Western imagination, engendering profound responses in later poetry and in mystical literature.  At the same time there is much in these visions that reminds us of the dangerous dark side of prophecy.  To announce authoritatively that the words one speaks are the words of God is an audacious act.  Inevitably what is reported as divine speech reaches us through the prism of the prophet’s sensibility and psychology, and the words and images represented as God’s urgent message may sometimes be distorted in eerie ways. 

Of course we moderns may be tempted to ask if we are really dealing here with anything other than Ezekiel’s eerie psychology.  I think it’s an important point that Ezekiel retains that visionary sensibility redolent of the earlier pre-literary prophets who were subject to ecstatic fits and spells.  We can appreciate him purely on that level.  The religious mystical imagination at work.  

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Robert
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March 22, 2021 - 5:47 pm
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Stephen
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March 22, 2021 - 8:49 pm

That’s a good point. If you are convinced that a text is sacred scripture just how far will you go?   I have heard otherwise sensible Christian apologists defend the genocide of the Amalekites on the basis of Divine Command Theory.  If God says it, do it.  I even heard one guy (who at least claimed to be a Christian) say that if we could determine that any descendants of the Amalekites still survived it would be our duty to track them down and exterminate them!  

I don’t recall too many sermons from Ezekiel growing up in the rural Georgia fundamentalist church that I did.  I don’t suppose they really knew what to do with it.  The sonorous rhythms of the KJV covered a multitude of sins and it was easy to lose the real sense of the text in all that fine prose.   I’m told the Rabbis forbade the text to any male under thirty years of age and to all women whosoever.   I can believe it.  Ezekiel’s most despicable quality is his fervid misogyny.  He is obsessed with the idea of a woman’s body but utterly repulsed by it.  I suspect what really freaked out the Rabbis though was that in several places Ezekiel’s pronouncements directly contradict the proscriptions in the Torah. 

Deep calls unto deep of course and I can remember ** you do not have permission to see this link ** seized on the passages about Gog and Magog who turned out to be the Soviet Union and its allies.  Go read Late Great Planet Earth or get yourself a Scofield Reference Bible.  They explain everything!  You can’t ask for any more than that. 

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Vesa

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March 23, 2021 - 12:27 am

 ’The time shall be no more’ is by far the best book about prophecy belief i have read. I didn’t know that Ezekiel has been so important bible book for so many evangelical groups. Especially Ezekiel 38, Gog of Magog and King of the north. 

I was surprised to find out, that Russia was the main candidate for the role of ’king of the north’ allready in 19th century. And during the cold war Ronald Reagan was convinced that it was Soviet Union. I wonder if modern day evangelical christian politicians, when they read today Ezekiel 38, apply that to Putin’s regime.

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Stephen
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March 23, 2021 - 10:08 am

Vesa, you mean Paul Boyer’s ** you do not have permission to see this link **?  Yep that’s a good one.

I was a kid in a fundamentalist Baptist church in the 70s when the whole Late Great Planet Earth phenomenon swept through the churches.  I remember Bible “studies” where the teacher breathlessly pored over the relevant passages looking for the clues to the time of the coming Rapture.    I forget the logic of identifying Gog and Magog as the Soviet Union other than they come from the “far reaches of the north” and we were in the Cold War.  I was out of the church when the Soviet Union actually fell so I can only imagine the consternation among the proponents of the End Times mythology.  

From Robert Alter’s commentary-

Chapter 38 Gog in the Land of Magog.  The Hebrew syntax could also be construed as “Gog of the land of Magog”.  Both names, which look quite foreign in the Hebrew, are mystifying and as such have encouraged the mythological readings of this prophecy prevalent in both Christian and Jewish tradition.   Gog is sometimes linked by scholars with a King Gugu of Lydia in Asia Minor.  Ezekiel does not appear to be referring to a historical figure – in contrast , for example, to Second Isaiah’s references to Cyrus – and may have embraced the name for its sheer strangeness. What is important is that Gog comes from the far north, the direction from which destruction traditionally descends upon Israel, as is repeatedly evident in Jeremiah.   

As Alter points out, in Ezekiel’s time they would have had little consciousness of anything further “north” than what is modern day Turkey, i.e., Asia Minor. 

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Robert
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March 23, 2021 - 10:26 am
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Vesa

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March 23, 2021 - 6:35 pm

Stephen said
Vesa, you mean Paul Boyer’s ** you do not have permission to see this link **?  Yep that’s a good one.

I was a kid in a fundamentalist Baptist church in the 70s when the whole Late Great Planet Earth phenomenon swept through the churches.  I remember Bible “studies” where the teacher breathlessly pored over the relevant passages looking for the clues to the time of the coming Rapture.    I forget the logic of identifying Gog and Magog as the Soviet Union other than they come from the “far reaches of the north” and we were in the Cold War.  I was out of the church when the Soviet Union actually fell so I can only imagine the consternation among the proponents of the End Times mythology.  

Yes, the same book. The work of Boyer helped me to get overall picture of the american milleanism. I grew up with these kind of ideas as a JW. Christ’s second coming, thousand year kingdom of god as well as Russia as a king of the north. All these teachings can be traced back to 19th century America. If in many ways JW’s are unique, their theology has not been developed in a vacuum. 

According to them The Gog used to be Satan, but now Gog is linked with king of the north mentioned in the book of Daniel. So both books predicted the rise of the empire of Vladimir Putin. How convenient.

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Stephen
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March 24, 2021 - 10:56 am

Looking back, Lindsey’s comic book version* of Christian eschatology functioned as one of those “chinks in the armor” that Ehrman has written about.  You see, I have always had this useful habit that when I get interested in a subject I read everything available.  The advantage of this is that wherever you start, even with the garbage, if you show due diligence you’ll eventually get to the good stuff.  And you’ll wind up with a good perception of the field.   

So it was with end times mythology.  I started out with dispensational doctrine but that eventually led to the discovery of apocalyptic.  The Book of Revelation led to Daniel which led to the Book of Enoch which opened up the whole world of Ancient Near Eastern Mythology.  At some point in the process the deluded amateurs gave way to reasoned scholarship and I was on my way.  

In a real sense I owe at least part of my journey out of fundamentalism and indeed, religious belief, to Hal Lindsey!  Wikipedia informs me that he is still alive at age 91 so I suppose I should write him a fan letter, sooner rather than later.  

*I still have what today would be described as a “graphic novel” version of Late Great Planet Earth published sometime in the early 80s.   It is full of splashy panels showing groovy teens in bell bottoms and cravats flying up to heaven as part of the “Great Snatch”, i.e., the Rapture.   (One thing about the fundamentalists – their sense of popular culture is always at least a decade out of date. I have an old Chick tract about the evils of rock music that depicts an 8 track cassette on the cover!)

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Vesa

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March 25, 2021 - 5:53 pm

As a non- american i never had heard of Lindsay, but i got to know a little bit of his influence by reading Boyers book. You made a good point, when you mentioned that you owe him at least part of your journey out of fundamentalism. The best antidote againts fundamentalist thinking is to  read their writings. Especially unfullfilled end time predictions.

These doomsday preachers are like the mythical Phoenix rising up out of the ashes. When things are not happening in a way they told, they will end up with new meanings and explanations. Millenistic groups call this method as a New Light.

There is a slogan: Wrong things happened, but in a right time. Bible students were expecting the rapture to happen in 1914. I did not happen. They did’nt go to heaven. What are we supposed to do now? 

Maybe the greek word (parousia) ’presence’ means ”invisible” presence? Jesus came, not in flesh or in a way everybody could see him, but invisible!

The outbreak of war was also a kind of the gift from heaven. But that is another story, wich gave birth to even more new lights.

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Stephen
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March 27, 2021 - 12:12 am

I still remember the excitement of those days when the end times fervor swept through the church.  Of course I was a kid and possessed no critical skills whatsoever.   And all the authority figures in my life believed it.   We were too sophisticated to actually pick a date and with such an open-ended apocalypse the passing of time tempered the enthusiasm. One of the consequences of having been indoctrinated into such a mindset as a child is that forever after the word “reality” is always in quotes for you. One of the freakiest things for me is to have watched the ‘end times’ mythology spread from a sectarian sub-culture into popular culture.     

There is a semi-famous book written in 1969 by American literary critic Frank Kermode entitled ** you do not have permission to see this link **. Among other things it’s about how American writers have processed their concepts of time.   Kermode spends a good bit of the book discussing the apocalyptic sense of time.  He was one of the first critics to pick up on how this “sense of an ending” suffuses even secular American culture. I over-simplify but when you set a deadline it sacralizes the time leading up to that deadline.  Time becomes special.  The participants become special.  Every action leading up to the end becomes drenched with meaning.  And we need that experience of sacralized time so much that the desire for it survives even repeated disconfirmation.   Not everyone joins a cult but everyone absorbs and resonates with the concept at least to some degree.   

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