????
Religion didn’t exist before this?
The actual word originated from the European monastic movement, so in that sense, nobody was talking about religion in ancient times, but in point of fact, people were talking about their religious beilefs and using them to justify secular decisions for thousands of years before civilization came into being. Religion of some type was probably a necessary basis for civilization getting started in the first place.
Still not sure what you’re asking here. You’re looking for the origins of religion being used as a basis for adjudication? You need to be reading anthropology texts relating to hunter-gatherer tribes.
godspell said
????Religion didn’t exist before this?
The actual word originated from the European monastic movement, so in that sense, nobody was talking about religion in ancient times, but in point of fact, people were talking about their religious beilefs and using them to justify secular decisions for thousands of years before civilization came into being. Religion of some type was probably a necessary basis for civilization getting started in the first place.
Still not sure what you’re asking here. You’re looking for the origins of religion being used as a basis for adjudication? You need to be reading anthropology texts relating to hunter-gatherer tribes.
Yes, what we call religion is very ancient. I am not sure the ancients set religion apart from the state. So the terms secular leader and religious leader seem inappropriate, I think.
What I am saying is that there were not two leaderships. Its all one thing.
I like to attribute the categorization of knowledge to the Greeks. But perhaps the Judeans, as they became “Jews” trying to fit in in foreign lands, accidentally created the category of religion as apart from secular.
Robert, it was reading Shaye Cohen that turned me onto the possibility that Judaism was born after the rebellions of the first and second century AD, and Judeans were simply the merchant minorities in Greek and Roman cities before these rebellions.
Interesting discussions, thanks to all. I shall continue searching for evidence that the Torah was a legal document somewhere, sometime, lol.
I can’t seem to get the journal, but after reading two or three articles about it, I agree with Mason. I had not read that Cohen was trying to reach back to the Hasmonean days as a start to Judaism. I have read some of Cohen’s stuff and it seems he presents a good case for exactly what Mason is polishing off.
Maybe I just ingested the evidence he was providing and ignored his argument against it. Will have to reread it.
Okay, I understand what you’re trying to figure out now. Strikes me as a tricky question to answer, since nobody really thought about separation of church and state back then. I think you can find evidence of conflict between kings and purely religious figures–the OT itself speaks of this. But the OT is written more from the perspective of those who wanted religion to be predominant.
Whenever someone points to the Old Testament, I instinctively try to find a Greek comparison. (As little as I know about Greek mythology or literature, I know less about other ancient cultures). So, “purely religious figures” is an interesting challenge. Think of a Greek king asking a seer for direction. The seer warns the king there is danger ahead and he will die if he goes to battle. Is the seer a “purely religious figure?” Is then Elijah or Elisha or Isaiah a purely religious figure in their dire warnings?
I will say there is a moral element to the prophets. ITs a puritanical tendency that seemed to have begun in ancient Israel and grew throughout time, before even monotheism. So there is a wisdom or knowledge feature there that would go hand in hand with being the only people who could read and write besides a few royals and a few military commanders.
At any rate, I do insert Greek examples in my brain to clear out the Monotheistic apologetics that rewrote nearly all the Bible.
I have to admit, every time I try to say, “what we would call religious the ancients would simply call reality,” I have to push aside the very real current situation with fundamentalists, with Hilary as Satan and Trump as a messiah. These modern day people really do live their religion, I guess. (I know not all Trump fans are fundamentalists.)
…what we would call religious the ancients would simply call reality…
For an interesting perspective see ** you do not have permission to see this link ** where one of Prof Ehrman’s former students makes a good case that what we call “religion” is a actually a modern concept that simply didn’t exist in the ancient world.
Stephen said
…what we would call religious the ancients would simply call reality…For an interesting perspective see ** you do not have permission to see this link ** where one of Prof Ehrman’s former students makes a good case that what we call “religion” is a actually a modern concept that simply didn’t exist in the ancient world.
I put it in my cart. It would be interesting to see how Europe was so entangled in religious wars if the concept of religion was so late.
Read recently where the root word for heresy simply meant “thought” or “belief” with none of the eventual bad connotations. Imagine persecuting people for thoughts! :O
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