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ISAIAH 53
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DJV

9 Posts
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June 26, 2024 - 10:17 pm

I FOUND ISAIH 53, AND ITS CONTENTS TO BE RATHER DISTURBING. I’D BEEN GIVEN A NUMBER OF REFERENCES THAT SEEM TO CONFIRM AND AGREE THAT SINS CAN NOT BE TRANSFERRED FROM ONE PARTY TO ANOTHER from the perspective of Old Testament authors. “YOU DO THE CRIME, YOU DO THE TIME” SEEMED TO BE THE CONSISTENT PERSPECTIVE OF JUDAISM. NOW I FIND THAT ISAIAH 53 SEEMS TO BE COUNTERING THAT PERSPECTIVE. THE PARTY DESCRIBED IN ISAIAH 53 IS CLEARLY NOT JESUS. IT SAYS THAT HE GOES LIKE A LAMB, AND THE EVENT IN GETHSEMANE WITH At least one SWORD WHEN JESUS WAS ARRESTED AND THE PRIOR EVENT OVERTURNING THE MONEY CHANGERS BOOTHS CLEARLY INDICATES THAT JESUS DID NOT GO LIKE A LAMB. (HE’D HAVE BEEN PISTOL WHIPPED OR SHOT FOR RESISTING ARREST IN MANY U.S. CITIES.) IT ALSO SAYS THAT HE SUFFERED MANY ILLNESSES. JESUS WAS KNOWN FOR HEALING THE SICK, BLIND, AND LAME, AND WOULD PRESUMABLY HAVE HEALED HIMSELF HAD HE BECOME SERIOUSLY ILL ACCORDING TO THE MYTH. JESUS ALSO HAD A DEDICATED ENTOURAGE OF DISCIPLES WHO FOLLOWED HIM AS HIS APOSTLES, SO HE WAS NOT ABANDONED IN HIS LIFE. (Yes, it happened at the end, but unless his apostles wished to join him standing before Pilot the next day, it seemed inevitable.)

I’M LEFT TO WONDER, WHO IS Isaiah 53 DESCRIBING? It SAYS THAT YAHWEH/god wishes to crush him. Is this person an any man? Why is it that god wishes to crush him? Its a rather disturbing declaration. If you don’t care for torture and crucifixion as the basis for salvation, followed by a prescription for divine cannibalism, try reading about god wishing to crush a human to see if he’ll give up his soul for others. What a concept.

I sent you a manuscript version that contains references tonight. This includes the Tanakh version and the KJV of Isaiah 53. Yes, it is true. The KJV does mess with the text rather severely to make it sound like it is referencing Jesus. Of course, if you think about it, you realize that the description doesn’t fit at all.

That is also true of the Tanakh’s contents regarding the “prophecy” that appears elsewhere in Isaiah:

The young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Curd and honey shall he eat, when he knoweth to refuse the evil, and choose the
good. Yea, before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good,
the land whose two kings thou hast a horror of shall be forsaken.

Doesn’t seem so prophetic when you find that Immanuel is not Jesus’ name, and that the segment being quoted is 700 years before Jesus alleged birth. It is also a quote about a divine response to a king who is fearing an imminent invasion, so the reference to “god is with us” makes sense as words of reassurance.

Thank you.

Sincerely,
Del Ventruella

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Stephen
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June 27, 2024 - 2:31 pm

The short version is that scholars see Isaiah 53 as one of a series of so-called Suffering Servant Songs. It is generally thought that the Suffering Servant is, or represents, the People of Israel. In my opinion a Christian reading is perfectly valid theologically as long as you don’t fool yourself into thinking that’s what the original author had in mind.

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DJV

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June 27, 2024 - 3:58 pm

Sorry, I simply can’t accept this as something that refers to Jesus. The facts are diametrically opposed. The description just doesn’t match. You say that this refers to the Jewish people. Did they believe that their god wanted to crush them when this was written? Why does it seem to accept the transmittal of sin from one person to another? That seems to be contrary to what Jews believe.

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DJV

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June 27, 2024 - 3:59 pm

Yes, the quick and dirty response is why many Christians still believe. I need more.

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DJV

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June 27, 2024 - 11:03 pm

Is this a topic to which Mr. Ehrman might respond?

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DJV

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June 27, 2024 - 11:45 pm

Regarding the other Isaiah quote:

The young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Curd and honey shall he eat, when he knoweth to refuse the evil, and choose the
good. Yea, before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good,

I have a few questions.
1. Why is it stated in a prediction regarding the birth of a child? Is this supposed to give the king hope? Is the birth of a child a hopeful event?
2. Why does it concentrate on what the child eats? Why curds and honey?
3. Why does it bring up when the child shall know to refuse evil and choose the good? I’ve heard this explained as being a reference to around 7 years of age, but this says that it will happen before the child reaches that age.

This one needs a lot of explanation too. It simply does not make obvious sense to me.
No, I don’t think it is about Jesus. The Tanakh references the “young woman” explicitly, and since we all know that Christians insist on using virgin and Mary in a combined manner, there is no reason to believe it is her. (Yes, the KJV does indeed insert the word virgin into this quote.) It also says explicitly his name shall be Immanuel, and Immanuel is not Jesus.

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DavidFord

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June 28, 2024 - 11:47 am

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LXX vs. Masoretic

Isaiah 53:10a
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(NIV) Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer….
(KJV) Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief….
(LXX: Brenton) The Lord also is pleased to purge him from his stroke.

53:10-11 (LXX: NETS) And the Lord desires to cleanse him from his blow. ….
And the Lord wishes to take away from the pain of his soul….

Esaias 53, in _New English Translation of the Septuagint_ (2009, 2014), on 865-866 ** you do not have permission to see this link **
pdf: ** you do not have permission to see this link **

1 Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a child,
like a root in a thirsty land;
he has no form or glory,
and we saw him,
and he had no form or beauty.
3 But his form was without honor,
failing beyond all men,
a man being in calamity
and knowing how to bear sickness;
because his face is turned away,
he was dishonored and not esteemed.

4 This one bears our sins
and suffers pain for us,
and we accounted him to be in trouble
and calamity and ill-treatment.
5 But he was wounded because of our acts of lawlessness
and has been weakened because of our sins;
upon him was the discipline^d [d Or _punishment_] of our peace;
by his bruise we were healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
a man has strayed in his own way,
and the Lord gave him over to our sins.
7 And he, because he has been ill-treated,
does not open his mouth;
like a sheep he was led to the slaughter,
and as a lamb is silent before the one shearing it,
so he does not open his mouth.

8 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away.
Who will describe his generation?
Because his life is being taken from the earth,
he was led to death on account of^a [a, re: “on account of”: Or _from_] the acts of lawlessness of my people.
9 And I will give the wicked for his burial
and the rich for his death,
because he committed no lawlessness,
nor was deceit found in his mouth.

10-11 And the Lord desires to cleanse him from his blow.
If you offer for sin, your soul shall see a long-lived offspring.
And the Lord wishes to take away from the pain of his soul,
to show him light
and fill^b [b: _mold_ = Zi] him with understanding,
to justify a righteous one who is well subject to many,
and he himself shall bear their sins.
12 Therefore he shall inherit many^c [c, re: “he shall inherit many”: Or _he shall cause many to inherit_],
and he shall divide the spoils of the strong,
because his soul was given over to death,
and he was reckoned among the lawless,
and he bore the sins of many,
and because of their sins he was given over.

Hat tip:
_A More Christlike Word: Reading Scripture the Emmaus Way_ by Bradley Jersak (2021), 287pp., on 103

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Jeremiah 17:9
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(NIV) The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
(KJV) The heart _is_ deceitful above all _things_, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
(LXX: Brenton) The heart is deep beyond all things, and it is the man, and who can know him?

(LXX: NETS) The heart is deep above all else, and so^a [a: Lacking in Gk] is man, and who shall understand him?

Ieremias 17:9-10
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pdf: ** you do not have permission to see this link **
9 The heart is deep above all else,
and so^a [a: Lacking in Gk] is man,
and who shall understand him?
10 I, the Lord, am one who tests hearts
and examines kidneys^b [b: I.e. emotions],
to give to each according to his ways
and according to the fruit of his doings.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Targum (interpretive paraphrase in Aramaic) Isaiah 53

_The Chaldee Paraphrase on the Prophet Isaiah [by Jonathan b. Uzziel]_ tr. by C.W.H. Pauli (1871), on 182-185
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Chapter LIII.
1 Who hath believed this our report?
and to whom is now the power of the arm of the Lord revealed?
2 The righteous shall be great before Him,
behold, like branches that bud;
and like a tree which sends forth its roots by the streams of water,
thus shall the generation of the just multiply in the land,
which hath need of Him.
3 His visage shall not be the visage of a common person,
neither His fear the fear of a plebeian ;
but a holy brightness shall be His brightness,
that every one who seeth Him shall contemplate Him.
4 Although He shall be in contempt ;
yet He shall cut of the glory of all the wicked,
they shall be weak and wretched.
Lo, we are in contempt and not esteemed,
as a man of pain and appointed to sickness,
and as if He had removed the face of His Shekinah from us.

5 Therefore He shall pray for our sins,
and our iniquities for His sake shall be forgiven us;
for we are considered crushed, smitten of the Lord, and afflicted.
6 He shall build the house of the sanctuary,
which has been profaned on account of our sins ;
He was delivered over on account of our iniquities,
and through His doctrine peace shall be multiplied upon us,
and through the teaching of His words our sins shall be forgiven us.
7 All we like sheep have been scattered,
every one of us has turned to his own way ;
it pleased the Lord to forgive the sins of all of us for His sake.
8 He shall pray and He shall be answered,
yea, before He shall open His mouth, He shall be heard ;
He shall deliver over the mighty of the nations as a lamb to the slaughter,
and like a sheep before her shearers is dumb,
none shall in His presence open his mouth, or speak a word.
9 He shall gather our captives from affliction and pain,
and who shall be able to narrate the wonderful works which shall be done for us in His days ?
He shall remove the rule of the nations from the land of Israel,
the sins which my people have committed have come upon them.

10 And He shall deliver the wicked into hell [literally: Gehenna -d],
and the riches of treasures which they got by violence unto the death of Abaddon,
that they who commit sin shall not remain,
and that they should not speak folly with their mouth.
11 And it was the pleasure of the Lord to refine and to purify the remnant of His people,
in order to cleanse their souls from sin,
that they might see the kingdom of their Messiah,
that their sons and daughters might multiply, and prolong their days,
and those that keep the law of the Lord shall prosper through His pleasure.
12 He shall deliver their souls from the servitude of the nations,
they shall see the vengeance upon their enemies;
they shall be satisfied with the spoil of their kings.
By His wisdom He shall justify the righteous,
in order to make many to keep the law,
and He shall pray for their sins.
13 Therefore I will divide to Him the spoil of many people,
and the treasures of strong fortifications;
He shall divide the spoil;
because He has delivered His life unto death,
and He shall make the rebellious to keep the law;
He shall pray for the sins of many,
and as for the transgressors,
each shall be pardoned for His sake.

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DavidFord

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June 28, 2024 - 12:13 pm

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Isaiah 7:14

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Is it “the LORD”?-1QIsa^a
Or is it “my Lord”?-Masoretic
Is it “his name will be”?-1QIsa^a
Or is it “she will name him”?-Masoretic

The LXX says “virgin”– how do you explain that?
Jonathan ben Uzziel in his Aramaic paraphrase & interpretation of Isaiah, as translated by Pauli, says “virgin”– how do you explain that?
The Peshitta Tanakh, as translated by Lamsa, says “virgin”– how do you explain that?

Isaiah 7 (Brenton Septuagint Translation), ** you do not have permission to see this link **
10 And the Lord again spoke to Achaz, saying, 11 Ask for thyself a sign of the Lord thy God, in the depth or in the height. 12 And Achaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the Lord. 13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; is it a little thing for you to contend with men? and how do ye contend against the Lord? 14 Therefore *the Lord himself shall give you a sign; behold, a virgin shall conceive in the womb, and shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Emmanuel.* 15 Butter and honey shall he eat, before he knows either to prefer evil or choose the good. 16 For before the child shall know good or evil, he refuses evil, to choose the good; and the land shall be forsaken which thou art afraid of because of the two kings.

_A New English Translation of the Septuagint_, PDF 33 Esaias, tr. Moisés Silva, ** you do not have permission to see this link **
10 And the Lord spoke further to Achaz, saying, 11 Ask for yourself a sign of the Lord your God, in depth or in height. 12 But Achaz said, I will not ask, nor will I put the Lord to the test. 13 Then hed said: “Hear now, O house of Dauid! Is it a small thing for you to provoke a fight with mortals? How then do you provoke a fight with the Lord? 14 Therefore *the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look, the virgin shall be with child and bear a son, and you shall name him Emmanouel.* 15 He shall eat butter and honey; before he knows or prefers evil things, he shall choose what is good. 16 For before the child knows good or bad, he defies evil to choose what is good, and the land that you fear from before the two kings will be abandoned. 17 But God will bring on you and on your people and on your ancestral house such days as have not yet come since the day that he took Ephraim away from Ioudas– the king of the Assyrians.”

_The Chaldee Paraphrase on the Prophet Isaiah [by Jonathan b. Uzziel]_ (1871), translated by C.W.H. Pauli
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ISAIAH VII
14 Therefore *the Lord Himself shall give you a sign* ; *Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and she shall call His name Immanuel.*

Isaiah 7:14 (Peshitta Tanakh, Lamsa translation), ** you do not have permission to see this link **
Therefore the LORD himself shall give you a sign;
Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matthew 1 (based on Paul Younan’s translation of the original Aramaic), ** you do not have permission to see this link **
22. And all this happened that it might be fulfilled what was said by MrYa [Master YHWH] from the nabia [prophet],
23. “Behold, a virgin will conceive and give birth to a son,
and they will call his name Aimnuail,”
which is interpreted ‘Aimn Allahan.’
[With-us (is) our-Allaha, i.e. our God is with us. The last part of Aimnuail is ‘ail,’ which is short for Elohim, which means Allaha.]

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
“behold, the young woman is with child”
What Bible version are you using?

“IMMANUEL WAS ISAIAH’S OWN SON, HIS MOTHER IS ALREADY PREGNANT WITH THE CHILD”
Is it your belief that “the prophetess” was pregnant *before* Isaiah “went unto the prophetess; and she conceived”? Is it your belief that a particular child was named both “God is with us” and also named “The spoil speedeth, the prey hasteth”?

Isaiah 7 (JPS Tanakh 1917), ** you do not have permission to see this link **
10 And the LORD spoke again unto Ahaz, saying:
11 ‘Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God: ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.’
12 But Ahaz said: ‘I will not ask, neither will I try the LORD.’
13 And he said: ‘Hear ye now, O house of David: Is it a small thing for you to weary men, that ye will weary my God also?
14 Therefore *the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel [footnote: That is, God is with us].* 15 Curd and honey shall he eat, when he knoweth to refuse the evil, and choose the good. 16 Yea, before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land whose two kings thou hast a horror of shall be forsaken.

Isaiah 8 (JPS Tanakh 1917), ** you do not have permission to see this link **
1 And the LORD said unto me: ‘Take thee a great tablet, and write upon it in common script: The spoil speedeth, the prey hasteth; 2 and I will take unto Me faithful witnesses to record, Uriah the priest, and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah.’ 3 And *I went unto the prophetess; and she conceived, and bore a son.* Then *said the LORD unto me: ‘Call his name Maher-shalal-hashbaz [footnote: That is, The spoil speedeth, the prey hasteth].* 4 For before the child shall have knowledge to cry: My father, and: My mother, the riches of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria shall be carried away before the king of Assyria.’

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Stephen
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June 28, 2024 - 12:53 pm

Sorry, I simply can’t accept this as something that refers to Jesus.

Is it bad form to quote yourself? …as long as you don’t fool yourself into thinking that’s what the original author had in mind.

You say that this refers to the Jewish people.

No, I said it has been interpreted by scholars as such. What you need is a Jewish commentary on Isaiah. You won’t have any trouble finding one. The shelves groan. (In general I would recommend that anyone interested in historical interpretation of the OT begin with Jewish views.)

Is this a topic to which Mr. Ehrman might respond?

Actually I think he has already discussed Isaiah 53 at some point but you can certainly ask him. I’m sure it comes up a lot. But at best from him you’ll get a few sentences. Do a deep dive if you’re really interested. Read the commentaries.

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DavidFord

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June 28, 2024 - 2:48 pm

Isaiah 7:14 (Peshitta Holy Bible)
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Because of this, LORD JEHOVAH God will give you a sign;
behold, the virgin has conceived and she gives birth to The Son
and his Name shall be called Ammanuyel

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DJV

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June 29, 2024 - 2:08 pm

Peshitta Tanakh is a translation from Aramaic, not Hebrew. It is likely Christian influenced. Hebrew was the original language.

A More Christlike word? Are you kidding?

The Septuagint is in Greek, which gives a strong scent of Christian influence if only in the English translation.

The LXX again goes back to Greek before the English translation occurs.

THE ABOVE ARE NOT BOOKS IN THE ORIGINAL HEBREW.

“IMMANUEL WAS ISAIAH’S OWN SON, HIS MOTHER IS ALREADY PREGNANT WITH THE CHILD”
Is it your belief that “the prophetess” was pregnant *before* Isaiah “went unto the prophetess; and she conceived”? Is it your belief that a particular child was named both “God is with us” and also named “The spoil speedeth, the prey hasteth”?

– INTERESTING – SO YOU SAY THAT ISAIAH’S WIFE WAS PREGNANT WHEN THIS PROPHECY WAS WRITTEN? HE IS REFERRING TO HIS OWN SON WHEN HE REFERENCES IMMANUEL? THANK YOU.

– WHY IS GOD DETERMINED TO CRUSH THE PERSON REFERENCED IN ISAIAH 53?

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DJV

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June 29, 2024 - 2:10 pm

WHY DOES THIS QUOTE (ISAIAH 53) INSIST THAT SINS CAN BE TRANSFERRED? I HAD THOUGHT THIS WAS ANATHEMA TO JUDAISM? IT IS CONTRARY TO VERSES ELSEWHERE IN THE JEWISH BIBLE.

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DavidFord

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June 29, 2024 - 5:09 pm

“Peshitta Tanakh is a translation from Aramaic”
The Peshitta OT has been translated into English from Aramaic.

“It is likely Christian influenced”
Where?

“Hebrew was the original language”
of most– but not all– of the OT.
Some portions were originally in Aramaic.

“A More Christlike word? Are you kidding?”
No.

“The Septuagint is in Greek, which gives a strong scent of Christian influence if only in the English translation”
The OT was translated into Greek to become the LXX by people into Judaism.

“if only in the English translation”
Look at the Greek, which is a precise language, the language of science and math.
The LXX speaks of a virgin.

“THE ABOVE ARE NOT BOOKS IN THE ORIGINAL HEBREW”
The Masoretic is a relatively recent thing, and has corruptions.

“YOU SAY THAT ISAIAH’S WIFE WAS PREGNANT WHEN THIS PROPHECY WAS WRITTEN?”
Not me– no.

“HE IS REFERRING TO HIS OWN SON WHEN HE REFERENCES IMMANUEL?”
I’m not saying that.
Someone else said that, and then I responded with questions.

“WHY IS GOD DETERMINED TO CRUSH THE PERSON REFERENCED IN ISAIAH 53? …
WHY DOES THIS QUOTE (ISAIAH 53) INSIST THAT SINS CAN BE TRANSFERRED?”
What verses, and what rendition(s), are you looking at?

==========================================
_The Chaldee Paraphrase on the Prophet Isaiah [by Jonathan b. Uzziel]_ (1871), translated by C.W.H. Pauli
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ISAIAH VII
14 Therefore *the Lord Himself shall give you a sign* ;
*Behold, a virgin shall conceive,
and bear a son,
and she shall call His name Immanuel.*

Cf.

_The Isaiah Targum_ translated by Bruce D. Chilton, The Aramaic Bible, Volume 11 (1987), 130pp., on 17

7.14 Therefore the _LORD_ himself will give you _the_ sign.
Behold the young woman is pregnant
and shall bear a son
and shall call his name Immanuel.

_The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible_ on 281
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14 Therefore _the LORD_^149 _himself_^150 will give y[ou a sign. Loo]k,
the young woman has conceived
and is bearing a son,
and _his name will be_^151 Immanuel.

==========================================
Re: Isaiah 7:14, do you agree with Rashi that among adherents of Judaism, “some interpret that this is the sign, that she was a young girl and incapable of giving birth”?

From
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14 Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.
*the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign:* He will give you a sign by Himself, against Your will.
*is with child:* This is actually the future, as we find concerning Manoah’s wife, that the angel said to her (Judges 13:3): “And you shall conceive and bear a son,” and it is written, “Behold, you are with child and shall bear a son.”
*the young woman:* My wife will conceive this year. This was the fourth year of Ahaz.
*and she shall call his name:* Divine inspiration will rest upon her.
*Immanuel:* [lit. God is with us. That is] to say that our Rock shall be with us, and this is the sign, for she is a young girl, and she never prophesied, yet in this instance, Divine inspiration shall rest upon her. This is what is stated below (8:3): “And I was intimate with the prophetess, etc.,” and we do not find a prophet’s wife called a prophetess unless she prophesied. Some interpret this as being said about Hezekiah, but it is impossible, because, when you count his years, you find that Hezekiah was born nine years before his father’s reign. And some interpret that this is the sign, that she was a young girl and incapable of giving birth.

==========================================
Do you believe that 1 individual was named both “Immanuel… ‘God is with us” and also named “’Maher-shalal-hash-baz’… the spoil speeds the prey hastens”?

From
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….and God said to me: Name the child “Maher-shalal-hash-baz” which means (the spoil speeds the prey hastens). ….
Clearly, the woman mentioned in Isaiah 7:14 and 8:3-4 are one and the same and that she is Isaiah’s wife. ….
….is told that the sign will be the birth of a child from the young woman who will call the child (Immanuel –עמנואל).[4] Although this name mean ‘God is with us” it does not mean that the child will be divine.

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DJV

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June 30, 2024 - 1:41 am

I found a book commenting on Isaiah and Isaiah 53. It says that there are a number of places in Leviticus that reference taking on sin. These seem to revolve around a “sin offering” and a goat that is sacrificed. There are two places in Leviticus that are indicated to be relevant. In one it discusses the goat as a sacrifice that bears the sins of the people. In the second location, it discusses the goat as a sin offering for the people that is being consumed by Levites. Moses questions where they are consuming it and says that these priests must make amends for the sins of the people. It makes me wonder, if Christianity calls its Eucharist a sin offering, do those who consume the bread and wine have to make amends for the sins of those who participate? Paul would obviously say no, but as what was a Jewish sect, is this how Christianity should have approached the matter?

The young woman who is with child makes sense if the king knew of such a woman at the time. Did kings have so many wives at the time that the likelihood that one of them would be with child was high, or was Isaiah married with a wife who was pregnant and known to the king?

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DavidFord

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June 30, 2024 - 12:27 pm

“The young woman who is with child makes sense if the king knew of such a woman at the time.
Did kings have so many wives at the time that the likelihood that one of them would be with child was high”
Depends on the king, and how many wives he had.

“was Isaiah married with a wife who was pregnant and known to the king?”
Not that I know of.

“In the second location, it discusses the goat as a sin offering for the people that is being consumed by Levites”
Citation for that Bible passage?

Leviticus 16:10, 21 (NIV)
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But the goat chosen by lot as the scapegoat
shall be presented alive before the LORD
to be used for making atonement
by sending it into the wilderness as a scapegoat.

He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat
and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites—all their sins—
and put them on the goat’s head.
He shall send the goat away into the wilderness
in the care of someone appointed for the task.

“if Christianity calls its Eucharist a sin offering”
Does Xtianity do that?

“do those who consume the bread and wine have to make amends for the sins of those who participate?”
No.

“is this how Christianity should have approached the matter?”
A sinful human– including a sinful priest– can’t “make amends for” _anybody’s_ sins.

The temple in Jerusalem got destroyed in AD 70.
This put a definitive end to the Old Testament animal sacrifices system.
Animal sacrifice-less Rabbinic Judaism is a man-made religion.

Hebrews 10 (Peshitta Holy Bible)
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1 For The Written Law
had a shadow in it of good things that were coming.
It was not the essence of those matters;
because of this, while they were offering those sacrifices every year, they could never perfect those who offered them.
2 For if they had perfected them, doubtless, they would have ceased from their offerings,
because their conscience would not have been buffeted by sin once they had themselves been purged;
3 But by those sacrifices they remember their sins every year,
4 For the blood of oxen and of yearling goats cannot purge sins.

5 Because of this, when he entered the universe, he said,
“Sacrifices and offerings you did not want,
but you have clothed me with a body,
6 “And burnt peace-offerings for sins you have not demanded.

7 And I said, ‘Behold, I come’, because in the beginning of The Writings it is written of me, ‘to do your will, oh God.’”
8 Above, he said,
“Sacrifices and offerings and burnt peace offerings for sins you did not want”;
those that were offered were by The Written Law.
9 And afterward he said, “Behold, I have come to do your will, oh God.”
In this he abolishes the first to establish the second.
10 For in this, his will, we are made holy in the offering of the body of Yeshua The Messiah, once.

11 For every High Priest who has stood and served those with those sacrifices every day
was offering those things which were never able to purge sins.
12 But This One offered one sacrifice for the sake of sins,
and he sat down at the right side of God for eternity.
13 And he waits from then on until his enemies are put as a footstool under his feet,
14 For by one offering he has perfected those who are sanctified by him for eternity.
15 But The Spirit of Holiness also testifies to us, who says:
16 “This is the covenant that I shall give them after those days, says THE LORD JEHOVAH:
I shall put my law into their minds,
and I shall write it upon their hearts,
17 And their evils and their sins I shall not remember.”
18 But where there is forgiveness of sins, no offering for sins is needed.

36 For you must have patience to do the will of God and receive The Promise,
37 “Because in a very short time, he who is coming will come and will not delay.”

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Robert
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June 30, 2024 - 4:47 pm
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DavidFord

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June 30, 2024 - 5:21 pm

_Longing for Dawn: The Jewish Guide to Consolation_, pg. 94
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…53:11).
Based on this verse, our Sages commented that the outstanding Torah scholar of the generation bears the sins of his generation through private suffering of which only Hashem is aware.

24 “Seventy ‘sevens’^c are decreed for your people and your holy city
to finish^d transgression,
to put an end to sin,
to atone for wickedness”

Daniel 9 (NIV)
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23 As soon as you began to pray,
a word went out,
which I have come to tell you,
for you are highly esteemed.
Therefore, consider the word and understand the vision:

24 “Seventy ‘sevens’^c are decreed for your people and your holy city
to finish^d transgression,
to put an end to sin,
to atone for wickedness,
to bring in everlasting righteousness,
to seal up vision and prophecy
and to anoint the Most Holy Place.^e [e: Or _the most holy One_]

25 “Know and understand this:
From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem
until the Anointed One,^f the ruler, comes,
there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’
It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench,
but in times of trouble.
26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.^g
The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.

The end will come like a flood:
War will continue until the end,
and desolations have been decreed.
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’^h
In the middle of the ‘seven’^i he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.
And at the temple^j he will set up an abomination that causes desolation,
until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.^k “^l

Footnotes:
a 1 Hebrew _Ahasuerus_
b 1 Or _Chaldean_
c 24 Or _ ‘weeks’_; also in verses 25 and 26
d 24 Or _restrain_
e 24 Or _the most holy One_
f 25 Or _an anointed one_; also in verse 26
g 26 Or _death and will have no one_; or _death, but not for himself_
h 27 Or _’week’_
i 27 Or _’week’_
j 27 Septuagint and Theodotion; Hebrew _wing_
k 27 Or _it_
l 27 Or _And one who causes desolation will come upon the wing of the abominable temple, until the end that is decreed is poured out on the desolated city_

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DJV

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July 1, 2024 - 10:51 am

Alright, so in a non-biblical book a Rabbi proclaims that an individual may bear the sin of his generation, but not the sin of all generations.

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