Not sure where I should post this so… here goes. My hobby of investigation tries to stick to a VERY late composition of the Hebrew bible, and I try to find similar stories, thinking these stories may show two different authors using an older source. For example, the names Melchizedek, Adonizedek, AdoniBezek, and Bezek are only found (excepting one Psalm mentioning Melchizedek) in stories about pushing out the Amorites (Ammonites for Saul, but that can be explained). 3 of these stories are supposedly by the DtrH, one by an author of Genesis. So my idea is that these stories come from a common source, possibly the Book of Jashar, which shows up in the Joshua tale and at the end of Saul’s life. But I digress, I mean only to show how I came to see Jesuses in the Hebrew Bible.
Elisha raises the dead, feeds a multitude, makes water drinkable, and heals the sick. He denies his master’s last request 3 times before his master, Elijah is taken up to heaven. The argument is made that the Elisha-Elijah story is a basis for or copied by Mark to create the legends around a historical core. But Elisha is not just an old story to copy to attach to Jesus. Elisha is a Jesus – literally.
Elisha – El saves
Jeshua – Y’ saves
Joshua – YHWH saves
Jesus = Jeshua -Y’ saves, but Greek/Latin translation of Jeshua
Another Jesus, Jeshua/Joshua of the four gospels of the Hebrew bible, Zechariah, Haggai, Nehemiah, and Ezra is the possibly mythical first high priest of the second temple. There is so much about this character that we find in the NT. His full name is Joshua ben Jehozadak, easily translates to “Jesus the son of YHWH the righteuous.” He faces the accuser, or Satan. Then we see prophecies of a Branch cleansing Israel in a single day. Most scholastic work on prophecies sees them written in the day the prophecy is coming true, or sometime after. Certainly a later author about a NT Jesus may have been referring to this Jesus as the First, and the NT Jesus as the Last, Alpha and Omega.
The most famous Jesus, Joshua son of Nunn, is part of one of the stories forcing out the Amorites. The division of the conquered land in Joshua names places found only else in Nehemiah, with Joshua son of Jehozadak. So if my idea of similar stories being from preexistent sources, these Jesuses are different aspect of an older tradition, and so Jesus stories predate the Hebrew Bible. It appears that Jesus is just a name for a hero that can be put into a story for an author. Consider that the conquest made by Jesus/Joshua in Joshua 10 is the same conquest made by Judah in Judges 1. Different authors use different names for the hero, but use the same basic storyline.
So what is Mark’s Jesus? Mark is writing in the most visceral realization of end times since perhaps the Babylonian destruction and the Gedaliah assassination afterward destabilized the area, sending Jeremiah to Egypt. The Romans are ticked off after being initially repelled by a rebellious Judea. They trample through Galilee, where Mark’s story is set, on their way to destroy Jerusalem. At the impending end of Judeans, Mark puts the combined hero of Judeans, Jesus, into the many situations Jesus was in in the HB. He raises the dead, feeds even bigger multitudes, and enters Jerusalem triumphant, much as Jesus ben Jehozadak did. But then the Judean leadership and Romans end the Judean hero and their hopes. He places Jesus 40 years back in time, and puts an end time prophecy about the current generation not passing away. A powerful fiction to tell a true story of Judean and Roman miscues leading to unneeded destruction.
Intended to be scripture? I doubt it. I think Mark thought Judeanism was about to be extinguished as the mostly invincible armies of Rome were about to cut down Jerusalem.
I don’t think the question matters much. Is Philo’s writings on the Logos supposed to make scripture? He did a lot of fantastic work, none of it scripture.
Paul wrote letters assuring people they were living the last days, so obviously he didn’t think about posterity at all. Yet his works became scripture.
I am not sure that anything that became scripture was intended to be scripture.
Why was it and Christians so thoroughly rejected by Judaism? Once we put on my rose colored glasses of mythicism -just for a minute- and remove the biggest rejection of all, the physical Jesus Christ, a lot of the controversy is written either long after the 70s war or by Paul who made enemies with other Christian preachers as well as being thrown out of Judean town halls (synagogues).
Are there other rejections I need to address?
Mark copied and embellished actions from other JESUSES in the HB. Jesus by name, Jesus by action.
My first assumption is there were no copyrights, so people borrowed from other Jesus stories for their own Jesus story, and a few of these made the cut into the HB.
So certainly Mark’s Jesus did a few things other Jesuses did not do. But each Jesus was a little different, sorta like the various superman movies made in different eras.
The gist is that Judean authors wrote “Jesus stories” and some of these made it into books of the Bible. So Jesus stories were around before Paul came along, and would be known to anyone who knew the scriptures. Besides, Paul shows very little detail about the gospel’s “historical” Jesus other than a final dinner ceremony and a crucifixion.
So if you ask me if Paul made up Jesus I can only assume you mean “Did Paul make up the dinner ceremony” and “Did Paul make up the crucifixion.” Perhaps we should throw in there “Did Paul make up James the brother of Jesus.”
I would say no. It seems Paul is reporting on a story of Jesus with James, a dinner ceremony, and a crucifixion that saves all mankind rather than making the story up. Or perhaps these are oral traditions, transitory in nature, that Paul refers to. Maybe these oral traditions come from a Peter and a James, though Paul says he gets his info directly from his dreams, so maybe he does make up these three details.
But really Paul’s Jesus is skeletal, with very few details of his life, despite the huge impact his Jesus is supposed to have on life in general.
So yes, Paul is probably reliant on earlier people in the Jesus cult, despite his insistence that his knowledge more more direct than mere hearsay. I do not think you had to be in the mystery cult to have known about the Jesus stories.
Focus My View
So yes, Paul is probably reliant on earlier people in the Jesus cult, despite his insistence that his knowledge more more direct than mere hearsay. I do not think you had to be in the mystery cult to have known about the Jesus stories.
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
One does not require a Jesus of the late 20s/early 30s to have known about the Jesus stories.
Steefen said
Focus My ViewSo yes, Paul is probably reliant on earlier people in the Jesus cult, despite his insistence that his knowledge more more direct than mere hearsay. I do not think you had to be in the mystery cult to have known about the Jesus stories.
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
One does not require a Jesus of the late 20s/early 30s to have known about the Jesus stories.
So a separate Jesus cult based on an earlier Jesus existed alongside of a historical Jesus?
FocusMyView said
Not sure where I should post this so… here goes. My hobby of investigation tries to stick to a VERY late composition of the Hebrew bible, and I try to find similar stories, thinking these stories may show two different authors using an older source. For example, the names Melchizedek, Adonizedek, AdoniBezek, and Bezek are only found (excepting one Psalm mentioning Melchizedek) in stories about pushing out the Amorites (Ammonites for Saul, but that can be explained). 3 of these stories are supposedly by the DtrH, one by an author of Genesis. So my idea is that these stories come from a common source, possibly the Book of Jashar, which shows up in the Joshua tale and at the end of Saul’s life. But I digress, I mean only to show how I came to see Jesuses in the Hebrew Bible.Elisha raises the dead, feeds a multitude, makes water drinkable, and heals the sick. He denies his master’s last request 3 times before his master, Elijah is taken up to heaven. The argument is made that the Elisha-Elijah story is a basis for or copied by Mark to create the legends around a historical core. But Elisha is not just an old story to copy to attach to Jesus. Elisha is a Jesus – literally.
Elisha – El saves
Jeshua – Y’ saves
Joshua – YHWH saves
Jesus = Jeshua -Y’ saves, but Greek/Latin translation of Jeshua
Another Jesus, Jeshua/Joshua of the four gospels of the Hebrew bible, Zechariah, Haggai, Nehemiah, and Ezra is the possibly mythical first high priest of the second temple. There is so much about this character that we find in the NT. His full name is Joshua ben Jehozadak, easily translates to “Jesus the son of YHWH the righteous.” He faces the accuser, or Satan. Then we see prophecies of a Branch cleansing Israel in a single day. Most scholastic work on prophecies sees them written in the day the prophecy is coming true, or sometime after. Certainly a later author about a NT Jesus may have been referring to this Jesus as the First, and the NT Jesus as the Last, Alpha and Omega.
The most famous Jesus, Joshua son of Nunn, is part of one of the stories forcing out the Amorites. The division of the conquered land in Joshua names places found only else in Nehemiah, with Joshua son of Jehozadak. So if my idea of similar stories being from preexistent sources, these Jesuses are different aspect of an older tradition, and so Jesus stories predate the Hebrew Bible. It appears that Jesus is just a name for a hero that can be put into a story for an author. Consider that the conquest made by Jesus/Joshua in Joshua 10 is the same conquest made by Judah in Judges 1. Different authors use different names for the hero, but use the same basic storyline.
So what is Mark’s Jesus? Mark is writing in the most visceral realization of end times since perhaps the Babylonian destruction and the Gedaliah assassination afterward destabilized the area, sending Jeremiah to Egypt. The Romans are ticked off after being initially repelled by a rebellious Judea. They trample through Galilee, where Mark’s story is set, on their way to destroy Jerusalem. At the impending end of Judeans, Mark puts the combined hero of Judeans, Jesus, into the many situations Jesus was in in the HB. He raises the dead, feeds even bigger multitudes, and enters Jerusalem triumphant, much as Jesus ben Jehozadak did. But then the Judean leadership and Romans end the Judean hero and their hopes. He places Jesus 40 years back in time, and puts an end time prophecy about the current generation not passing away. A powerful fiction to tell a true story of Judean and Roman miscues leading to unneeded destruction.
Added to my notes for a second edition of my book, Historical Accuracy.
(I even copied the URL.)
Have you written a book? Do you have a blog article on this?
Is this information
The argument is made that the Elisha-Elijah story is a basis for or copied by Mark to create the legends around a historical core. But Elisha is not just an old story to copy to attach to Jesus. Elisha is a Jesus – literally.
in any good books you have read?
Focus My View
The Romans are ticked off after being initially repelled by a rebellious Judea. They trample through Galilee, where Mark’s story is set, on their way to destroy Jerusalem.
Steefen
They were not on their way to destroy Jerusalem.
Rome was only there to put down the rebellion. The Jewish Civil War did a good job of destroying Jerusalem and the Temple without Rome’s help.
Focus My View
So if my idea of similar stories being from preexistent sources, these Jesuses are different aspect of an older tradition…
Steefen
Jesus is a composite character of earlier figures:
Elisha
Joshua, son of Nunn
Joshua son of Jehozadak
Focus My View
He 1) raises the dead, 2) feeds even bigger multitudes, and 3) enters Jerusalem triumphant, much as Jesus ben Jehozadak did.
Steefen
Please provide the verses where Jesus ben Jehozadak
1) raised the dead
2) fed multitudes, and
3) entered Jerusalem in triumph
Thank you.
Yes, yes, yes: my list of composite characters making of the character of historical fiction Jesus is incomplete without what you have shared.
Thank you.
FocusMyView said
The gist is that Judean authors wrote “Jesus stories” and some of these made it into books of the Bible. So Jesus stories were around before Paul came along, and would be known to anyone who knew the scriptures. Besides, Paul shows very little detail about the gospel’s “historical” Jesus other than a final dinner ceremony and a crucifixion.So if you ask me if Paul made up Jesus I can only assume you mean “Did Paul make up the dinner ceremony” and “Did Paul make up the crucifixion.” Perhaps we should throw in there “Did Paul make up James the brother of Jesus.”
I would say no. It seems Paul is reporting on a story of Jesus with James, a dinner ceremony, and a crucifixion that saves all mankind rather than making the story up. Or perhaps these are oral traditions, transitory in nature, that Paul refers to. Maybe these oral traditions come from a Peter and a James, though Paul says he gets his info directly from his dreams, so maybe he does make up these three details.
But really Paul’s Jesus is skeletal, with very few details of his life, despite the huge impact his Jesus is supposed to have on life in general.
So yes, Paul is probably reliant on earlier people in the Jesus cult, despite his insistence that his knowledge more more direct than mere hearsay. I do not think you had to be in the mystery cult to have known about the Jesus stories.
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
You do not think a person had to be in the [Jesus as Enoch/Son of Man/Angel] mystery cult to have known about the Jesus stories.
PROVE IT. Prove that there were Jesus stories in the first century BCE.
FocusMyView said
Steefen said
Focus My View
So yes, Paul is probably reliant on earlier people in the Jesus cult, despite his insistence that his knowledge more more direct than mere hearsay. I do not think you had to be in the mystery cult to have known about the Jesus stories.
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
One does not require a Jesus of the late 20s/early 30s to have known about the Jesus stories.
So a separate Jesus cult based on an earlier Jesus existed alongside of a historical Jesus?
I am repeating what you implied.
Why are you asking me a question about your thesis? Answer your own question.
If I had to answer, I would say, yes, you are saying a separate Jesus cult based on earlier Jesuses existed in the late 20s/early 30s.
Alongside the Jesus as Enoch/Son of Man/Angel, your idea of Jesus stories also existed.
PROVE IT. Prove that there were Jesus stories in the first century BCE
Ummm… Elisha in Kings was presumably written by then. Also Jesus ben Jehozadak in Zechariah had been written about (4 times!). Jesus Ben Sirach said “We have these 24 books” (actually it was his grandson, who wrote the prologue) just as Jesus Christ said “We have the Law and the Prophets.”
Those were Jesus stories. 😀
The argument is made that the Elisha-Elijah story is a basis for or copied by Mark to create the legends around a historical core. But Elisha is not just an old story to copy to attach to Jesus. Elisha is a Jesus – literally.
in any good books you have read?
Yes sir. The Bible.
Elisha, Joshua, and Jeshua are not translated the same way Jesus is translated. Perhaps this is to downplay what becomes obvious once you realize they are the same?
Yet they are interchangeable. Ezra even uses “Jeshua son of Nun” in referring to Joshua. Look at the four gospels of the old testament for examples:
Ezra 10:18 Jeshua son of Jozadak and his brothers:
Nehemiah 12:26 Jeshua son of Jozadak
Haggai 1:1 Joshua son of Jehozadak, the high priest:
Zechariah head of the high priest Joshua son of Jehozadak;
Also compare
Nehemiah 8:17 for from the days of Jeshua son of Nun (also an important verse for dating P for Friedman, btw)
Joshua 1:1 Joshua son of Nun,
So people called a person named Joshua by the name Jeshua. Its like Will is short for William.
Elisha clearly has a different theophoric element. El for Yhwh. But those are almost always interchangeable throughout the Bible. So we sort of have a Bill is short for William. (They are clearly the same person !)
So perhaps we have a more archaic form, Elisha, and the more updated form Joshua, and then the nickname Jeshua. But while Joshua and Jesus are the same word in the Greek, one wonders why their forms differ today.
Focus My View,
You say there was a Jesus cult, there were Jesus stories, and Elisha was one of a number of Jesuses.
I asked for proof that this cult was around in the first century BCE.
You say, Elisha was around before the first century BCE.
That does not addressed the implication of your assertion.
There is the Elisha story. There is a story of Jesus in the late 20s/early 30s.
There must be some evidence and narrative of the Elisha story evolving into the biblical Jesus story for your assertion to carry any weight that there were biblical Jesus stories in the context of a Jesus cult that Paul and Mark could have used. It is one thing to say there were Jesus stories that evolved from Elisha and Paul and Mark used the evolved, up-to-date, variations of Elisha stories. It is another thing to say Paul and Mark themselves updated the stories of Elisha.
You have not proven your case:
So yes, Paul is probably reliant on earlier people in the Jesus cult, despite his insistence that his knowledge more more direct than mere hearsay. I do not think you had to be in the mystery cult to have known about the Jesus stories.
You say there was a mystery cult for which Jesus was the subject. I asked you to Prove that. You did not.
One can say the apocalyptic figure evolved from the book of Daniel to the books 1 Enoch and 2 Enoch.
Your book of Elijah evolved from that book with Elisha to what book with what new Elisha figure kept by what sect of Judaism?
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