Steefen said
I gave “The Real” Exodus? a thumb up and this comment shows why:Excellent point: if there is evidence for the movement of the Sea Peoples, there would also be evidence for the movement of Israelites in the Sinai. However, all of Hoffmeier’s Ancient Israel in Sinai: The Evidence for the Authenticity of the Wilderness Tradition does not fall with that.– Steve Campbell, author of Historical AccuracyI have to p/u at 1:54 / 2:04:46
Eric Hoffmeier (as well as Kenneth Kitchen) understands the Exodus is a 13th Century BC Event. He makes this claim on the basis of Egyptian Toponymns from that period of time when compared with the biblical account. Most importantly, for him it is the mention of the city of Ramses, cf. Numbers 33:5, “So the people of Israel set out from Rameses, and encamped at Succoth…” My problem with Hoffmeier’s and Kitchen’s 13th century BC Exodus is that other sites mentioned in the Exodus and Conquest narratives refuse to line up with a 13th century BC Exodus. For Example, there is no collapsed defensive wall and burning of the site in the 13th century BC for Jericho. But such do exist in Middle Bronze Age II, circa 1550 BC as noted by the excavator, Dame Kathleen Kenyon. Another problem is the Book of Joshua claiming that the CITY of Beersheba was awarded by Joshua to two tribes, Judah and Simeon (Joshua Joshua 15:20-32). Excavations at Beersheba reveal the site was founded at the end of the 12th century BC or early 11th Century BC, NOT sometime in the Hoffmeier’s and Kitchen’s 13th century BC. Another problem for Hoffmeier is the mention of Philistines at the time of the Exodus. A an Egyptologist he knows the Pelest (Philistines) appear in Egyptian records for the first time circa 1175 BC, when mentioned by Pharaoh Rameses III, who defeats their attempt to conquer and settle in Egypt. The Bible has God stating that because He fears Israel will return back to Egypt rather than face in battle, the Philistines, God provides a detour to avoid encountering them: A route by way of the Red Sea (Today’s Gulf of Suez). The biblical narrator was not aware there were no Philistines in Canaan to oppose Israel in either 1446 BC (1 Kings 6:1), nor a 13th century 1270 BC Ramesside Exodus (Numbers 33:5). Bart Ehrman has already noted two of these problems for a 13th century BC Exodus, the Philistines and Beersheba not being in existence yet.
Aside from the lack of archeological evidence for such a mass migration there are other reasons to question the historicity of the Exodus episode. There are other traditions that contradict it mixed in the sources edited together to make the Hebrew text.
Go ** you do not have permission to see this link ** for an interesting article about an alternative textual tradition where the Exodus included only Moses’ own tribe, Levi, with hints he actually made it into the Promised Land!
Go ** you do not have permission to see this link ** for an article describing the surprising lack of knowledge of many of the Biblical writers about the Exodus which reveals the tradition of an alternative origin story for the people of Israel.
All of this in the Bible by the way.
John Romer, in his book and documentary (both called Testament) suggests that Exodus is mostly an invented story of the grand creation of the state of Israel. He further at least implies that the texts for both Genesis and Exodus were influenced by the period of exile in Babylon. (Romer, of course, is a historian, archeologist and Egyptologist rather than a textual critic.)
JAS said
John Romer, in his book and documentary (both called Testament) suggests that Exodus is mostly an invented story of the grand creation of the state of Israel. He further at least implies that the texts for both Genesis and Exodus were influenced by the period of exile in Babylon. (Romer, of course, is a historian, archeologist and Egyptologist rather than a textual critic.)
As regards John Romer’s notion that the Exodus account was penned in the Babylonian Exile, I stumbled across an item which suggests he may right. The item? The processing of the Heavenly Manna in the Exodus! How so? We are told that the Manna is ground and beaten in mortars, then added to water, sieved through a cloth to remove impurities, then added to bread dough and baked as a sweet-cake (Numbers 11:7-8) “…the manna was…ground…in mills or beat it in mortars, and boiled it in pots, and made cakes of it; and the taste of it was like the taste of cakes baked with oil.”
The Manna of the Sinai is NOT processed this way! It is NOT beaten NOR ground, as it is the consistency of honey. NOR is it added to bread dough to be baked as sweetcakes. The Arabs added the Manna as a topping, like a jam or jelly, to their pre-baked bread, to consume. However, in Babylonia (modern Iraq), and the area of modern Kurdistan, in the mountains are oak forests, they produce a product called Man, it is gathered off the ground in a hardened, crystalized state, that requires it to be beaten and ground in mortars and mills, before being added to water, sieved through a cloth to remove impurities, then added to bread dough, as a sweetner, then baked and hawked in the Bazaars of Iraq. It is my understanding that the Bible’s description of Manna’s processing is that of present day Kurdistan, and thus the biblical narrator, IN ERROR, assumed that the Babylonian processing of Man would apply just as well, to the Manna of Sinai. If I am correct, the most likely timeframe for a Jew to describe the Iraqi processing of Man would be the time of the Babylonian Exile, circa 587-535 BC.
My recollection is that Romer suggests the Babylonian period is also why Genesis reflects so much Mesopotamian mythology, reworked but clearly apparent. Irving Finkle’s book on the Ark Before Noah is a fascinating examination. Of course, the whole idea that God would need one man (or family) to make an ark and save 2 of each animal makes sense only from a human perspective. Why would the God who created with speech need to invoke a flood to wipe out what he thus created? It would be far less troublesome to do a Thanos-like snap and just eliminate all of those other than Noah and the select few. Thus, there would be no need to bother with animals at all, and we might still have unicorns.
JAS said
My recollection is that Romer suggests the Babylonian period is also why Genesis reflects so much Mesopotamian mythology, reworked but clearly apparent. Irving Finkle’s book on the Ark Before Noah is a fascinating examination. Of course, the whole idea that God would need one man (or family) to make an ark and save 2 of each animal makes sense only from a human perspective. Why would the God who created with speech need to invoke a flood to wipe out what he thus created? It would be far less troublesome to do a Thanos-like snap and just eliminate all of those other than Noah and the select few. Thus, there would be no need to bother with animals at all, and we might still have unicorns.
Why does Genesis reflect so much Mesopotamian mythology? My understanding is that Genesis is what we call today and Anti-Thesis, in response to and in refutation of, an earlier Mesopotamian Thesis which sought to explain man’s origins in a location called EDIN and why man’s Creator sought his demise in a global flood. These earlier pre-biblical myths explain WHY man is a sinner, he was made in the image of his Creator, who are portrayed as being Sinner-gods! Every deplorable act man has ever engaged in, was earlier engaged in by the gods of EDIN, BEFORE man’s creation. Genesis’ narrator is refuting this explanation for why man is a sinner, EDEN’S God is righteous, NOT a sinner, and man. made in his image, must be righteous too. So Genesis takes Mesopotamian explanations about Man’s origins and recasts them into a new story. Point by point, Genesis refutes Mesopotamian understandings about WHY man is a sinner. Why was there was a flood? WHY was there was a God’s garden in Eden/Edin. Agreed with JAS, that God could just as easily snap his fingers to accomplish his ends instead of the nonsense of a building a boat to house the seed of man and animals for a post flood re-establishment of life, BUT the narrator of Genesis is responding to an earlier, Creation myths about EDIN’S man, and that myth involves the creation of a boat to save man and animals from total destruction.
sapiensape43
Why man’s Creator sought his demise in a global flood?
Why was there was a flood?
Agreed with JAS, that God could just as easily snap his fingers to accomplish his ends instead of the nonsense of a building a boat to house the seed of man and animals for a post flood re-establishment of life.
Geological events happen on earth.
Steefen said
sapiensape43Why man’s Creator sought his demise in a global flood?
Why was there was a flood?
Agreed with JAS, that God could just as easily snap his fingers to accomplish his ends instead of the nonsense of a building a boat to house the seed of man and animals for a post flood re-establishment of life.
SteefenGeological events happen on earth.
No, God cannot just as easily snap his fingers to accomplish his ends on Earth; so, humans better have life preservers and life boats.
Steefen asked: “Why was there a flood?” I assume Steefen is asking Why a flood in the Mesopotamian flood account? The god Enlil of Nippur complains he cannot REST by day nor sleep by night because mankinds’ clamor/noise keeps him awake. He convinces EDIN”S gods to go along with him in a solution, Destroy all of mankind with a flood. Then there will be no more noise and clamor and the gods of EDIN can REST by day and sleep by night. The problem? One god, Ea of Eridu, warns a man to build a boat and put aboard it the seed of mankind and animal kind to repopulate the Earth after the flood. On the 7th day of the flood, all of mankind has been destroyed, except those on the boat built by the Mesopotamian Noah (called variously, Ziusudra, Atrahasis, Utnapishtim). Enlil is outraged upon learning there are human survivors, for he insisted on ALL of mankind being destroyed by the flood. Ea steps forward and confesses he told one human to build a boat to save the seed of man and animal to repopulate the Earth. The gods of EDIN gather about Enlil and declare he has acted unrighteously in sending the flood. Enlil’s punishment was too severe (the annihilation ALL of the human race)! A castigated Enlil repents, and swears never again to attempt to destroy ALL of mankind. On the 7th day of the flood all of mankind has perished, at last EDIN’S gods can rest by day and sleep by night on the Sebbitu (7th) day of the flood! Genesis author is repudiating this myth. God did not send the flood because he could get no REST due to man’s clamor, he sent the flood because man is evil, shedding the blood of his fellow man. Whereas the Mesopotamian myth understands that all of EDIN’S gods achieved their RESTt on 7th day of the flood, with man’s and the earth’s destruction, the Hebrew God achieves his 7th day of Rest (Shabbat/Sabbath) after the earth’s creation and the creation of man. So, the notion that a god rests on a 7th day (Shabbat in Hebrew, Sabbath in English), in the Bible, is a refutation of EDIN’S gods resting on a 7th day (Sebbittu meaning 7th), after destroying the earth and man. The Mesopotamian Noah is rewarded by being made immortal. WHY? The gods of EDIN came to realize they needed man to care for their fruit-tree gardens in the EDIN that provide the gods’ food, that they do not starve to death (the gods have bodies of flesh in early myths). If there is no man to tend their gardens, then the gods will have to care for their garden themselves, a task they abhorred, for the work was burdensome, hence why they created man to care for EDIN’S gardens. WHY MAN”S CLAMOR? In the myths the junior gods, called the Igigi, were tasked with caring for the Senior gods’ fruit-tree gardens. The work was burdensome, no rest night or day for 40 years, Ea creates man to be the new gardening slave, replacing the Igigi. The goddess Mami tells the gods she has released them from the terrible labor, and their clamor/noise for a REST from toil has now been transferred to man. Man’s clamor is that of the Igigi, protesting no REST from toil in the gardens of EDIN. TYhe gods did give man the REST from toil he clamored for, they had mankind drowned in the flood, man’s rest was that of death, for there is no toil in the grave. Even today grave stones say R.I.P., Rest in Peace, on their surfaces!
Steefen said
sapiensape43Why man’s Creator sought his demise in a global flood?
Why was there was a flood?
Agreed with JAS, that God could just as easily snap his fingers to accomplish his ends instead of the nonsense of a building a boat to house the seed of man and animals for a post flood re-establishment of life.
SteefenGeological events happen on earth.
No, God cannot just as easily snap his fingers to accomplish his ends on Earth; so, humans better have life preservers and life boats.
Steefen asked “…was there a flood?” Yes. The flood was found by archaeologists in 1931. They determined it was a flooding Euphrates River circa 2900 BC, and confined to ancient Shurrupak which existed from 3000 BC to 2000 BC. In the Mesopotamian flood myth, the Mesopotamian Noah lives at Shuruppak when his god wans him to build a boat and stock it with the seed of man and animals to repopulate the earth after the flood. This myth has the boat beaching itself on a mountain (Mt. Nisir). 3 birds are released to test the abatement of flood waters before disembarking form the boat. There is no evidence of a flood covering the mountains of the world in the 3rd millennium BC (the Bible dates Noah’s flood to the 3rd millennium BC according to some devout Christian scholars). Only the flood silt at Shurrupak dates from this millennium. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have succeeded in suppressing this info, claiming Noah’s flood was a real event when it clearly wasn’t.
Sapiensape43
Steefen asked “…was there a flood?”
Steefen
I didn’t ask that.
Those are questions you said Genesis provided answers in refutation to Mesopotamian understandings.
Sapiensape43
Why does Genesis reflect so much Mesopotamian mythology? My understanding is that Genesis is what we call today and Anti-Thesis, in response to and in refutation of, an earlier Mesopotamian Thesis which sought to explain man’s origins in a location called EDIN and why man’s Creator sought his demise in a global flood.
These earlier pre-biblical myths explain WHY man is a sinner, he was made in the image of his Creator, who are portrayed as being Sinner-gods! Every deplorable act man has ever engaged in, was earlier engaged in by the gods of EDIN, BEFORE man’s creation.
Genesis’ narrator is refuting this explanation for why man is a sinner, EDEN’S God is righteous, NOT a sinner, and man. made in his image, must be righteous too. So Genesis takes Mesopotamian explanations about Man’s origins and recasts them into a new story.
Point by point, Genesis refutes Mesopotamian understandings about WHY man is a sinner. Why was there was a flood? WHY was there was a God’s garden in Eden/Edin.
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
1 Guest(s)