Dr. Ehrman, I am currently reading through your textbook, The Bible: A Historical And Literary Introduction. On page 104 you disclose historical problems between different narratives of the OT. One particularly strong example is “Who killed Goliath? (Read 1 Samuel 17, but then look at 2 Samuel 21:19.)”
When I view modern translations, the problem is evident; but, when I read older texts, for instance the KJV, the verses are in agreement due to ellipses. Uneducated in Hebrew or Greek, I am unable to discern difficult, conflicting translations. How are ellipses justified by translators and when are they deemed to be appropriately used to fill in the gaps in translations? I am not bringing this up as an argument but trying to determine how relevant ellipses are to the critical analysis of scripture.

I am currently reading Thomas Paine’s “The Age of Reason” online. Could anyone on this forum direct me to a modern author who might give a concise list of the same (plus more) examples of internal evidence from the scriptures themselves (Old Testament) that the biblical authors were not whom they have been purported to be? I would like a list of evidence without all the emotion that Paine puts into his writing. As the old saying goes “Give me the facts, ma’am, just the facts”
Although I am learning a lot from Paine’s writings, I would like to read a modern author and preferably one who doesn’t necessarily induct so much of his theology into the matter (such as Paine does his deist theology). On a related note: Online availability of reading material is important for me.

Dr Ehrman
I came across this article on the Exodus,I d know anything about the writer but I find this theory very interesting,I’m sure there are plenty of holes in his arguments.It just seems to me at if the Hebrews were in Egypt they would have been there during the time when the cult of Aton (sp?) was the state religion.
The Jerusalem Post – Israel
Jerusalem Post Opinion Op-EdContributors
The Exodus: Does archaeology have a say?
OP-EDCONTRIBUTORS By STEPHEN GABRIEL ROSENBERG \ 04/14/2014 07:21
The Exodus: Does archaeology have a say?
528
41
The Exodus is so fundamental to us and our Jewish sources that it is embarrassing that there is no evidence outside of the Bible to support it.
ancient egypt coffin
3,300 year old clay coffin found in Jezreel Valley. (photo credit:Israel Antiquities Authority)
The short answer is “no.” The whole subject of the Exodus is embarrassing to archaeologists. The Exodus is so fundamental to us and our Jewish sources that it is embarrassing that there is no evidence outside of the Bible to support it. So we prefer not to talk about it, and hate to be asked about it.
For the account in the Torah is the basis of our people’s creation, it is the basis of our existence and it is the basis of our important Passover festival and the whole Haggada that we recite on the first evening of this festival of freedom. So that makes archaeologists reluctant to have to tell our brethren and ourselves that there is nothing in Egyptian records to support it. Nothing on the slavery of the Israelites, nothing on the plagues that persuaded Pharaoh to let them go, nothing on the miraculous crossing of the Red Sea, nothing.
Nothing at all. There are three Pharaohs who said they got rid of the hated foreigners, but nothing to say who the foreigners were, and no Pharaoh is named as having persecuted foreign slaves or suffered unspeakable plagues.
However, there is another way of looking at it, another way of seeking support for this fundamental experience of our peoplehood.
We do not look for evidence from the biblical text, but we can look to it for the general context of a sojourn in, and an exodus from, Egypt, and there are three major elements.
The first is that the Israelites were slave workers in mudbrick. They had to manufacture the material and they were semi-skilled workers in laying the bricks. As there were thousands of Israelites, what projects were they working on? The pyramids and the temples were in stone, the mudbrick houses of the peasants were built by themselves, so what project needed hundreds of workers in mudbrick? Secondly, when the Israelites escaped, it was during a period of turmoil brought on by the magical plagues, a period when the Egyptians were off their guard and keen to see the slaves go as they wished into the desert.
When could that have been? And thirdly, the Israelites escaped into the desert and there built a most luxurious portable shrine to their God, to accompany them through their long desert trek and to house the Deity that would lead them and protect them on the way. It was to be made of fabulous materials, in hardwood and colored cloth with gold and copper trimmings, as described in detail in 16 chapters of the Torah.
How could all that have been manufactured and assembled in the arid Sinai wilderness? We should then ask, is there any period in Egyptian history when the conditions for these three elements could have come together and thus formed a basis for the context and account of the Exodus? And the answer here is “yes” – there was one such period.
It was around the death of the heretic Pharaoh Akhenaten, the one who decreed that all worship should be directed to the single god Aten, the disc of the sun, and all other gods should be downgraded to secondary rank. To impose his new religious order, Akhenaten closed the old cultic centers of Saqqara and Luxor, closed the temples there, disowned their priests and founded a new city, Akhetaten, called the Horizon of the Aten, on a prime site well away from the old centers.
TO IMPOSE the new rule, the city had to be built quickly, and it went up in the incredibly short time of two years, being built throughout in mudbrick, except for the temple and palace, which were in traditional stone.
How could it have been built so quickly? It was said to have employed thousands of slaves working under military taskmasters. It was the largest mudbrick project in Egyptian history and it required thousands of bricklayers and millions of bricks. It employed the army to supervise the slave workers and force them to work as fast as the Pharaoh demanded.
The new city was at El Amarna, on the east bank of the Nile, where there was plenty of soft mud for the bricks but little straw.
Thanks to slave labor, Akhenaten’s model city was built in record time, but it did not last long. After only 16 years, Akhenaten died, his reforms had been deeply unpopular and when he died, his new religion was abandoned, and so was his city. Akhenaten and his beautiful wife Nefertiti had had no son, only six daughters, and so it was one of the sons-inlaw who succeeded him: Tutankhamun, the famous boy king Tut.
He had the onerous task of restoring the old order, the old religion, the old gods and their priests, and he was under threat if he did not do so. The restitution stele says that the old gods would punish him if they were not given back their old rights and positions.
Hapi, the androgynous god of the Nile, would make its waters undrinkable; Kermit, the goddess of fertility, would release her frogspawn to swarm over the land; Osiris, the god of corn, would not prevent the locusts from consuming his cereals, and Ra, the sun god, would refuse to shine. Sound familiar? The laws of succession had already been altered, there was no firstborn son to succeed Akhenaten, only a daughter and son-in-law.
As the new city was abandoned, there was breakdown in law and order and the Israelite slaves saw their chance to escape. Like the other departing inhabitants they took with them any treasure they could lay their hands on. They “despoiled the Egyptians” (Exodus 12:36) and marched off with precious materials and above all the battle shrine of Tutankhamun.
Every Pharaoh had a portable battle shrine, to go with him into war, so he could consult the deity and look to it for guidance on the field. Tutankhamun did not go to war, as far as we know, but he had to be ready and he had a war chariot, as one was figured on his furniture, so he would have had a battle shrine as well, but none was found among the luxurious treasures of his tomb when it was uncovered by Howard Carter in 1922.
Where then was his battle shrine ? It had been taken away by the Israelites.
And what was its form? We can assume that it was similar to that of Ramesses the Great, whose battle shrine is depicted on the walls of his temple at Abu Simbel. It was a two-chamber movable building set in a large courtyard; the inner chamber was square and contained the ark of a deity protected by two winged birds, and the outer room was twice as large, for the worshipping priests.
That of Tutankhamun was taken by the fleeing Israelites and converted by artisans Bezalel and Oholiab, as instructed by Moses, to become the portable Mishkan or Tabernacle, that accompanied them through the wilderness and landed up at Shiloh, in Canaan. Thus it was made of the finest material, as was everything else that Tutankhamun left behind, including furniture with carrying poles and a golden chest surrounded by cherubim. Sound familiar? THUS, AT the death of Akhenaten we have a situation in Egypt where the three major conditions of the Israelite account of the Exodus came together; the building of a vast mudbrick project; a period of unrest and turmoil when slaves could escape; and the foundation of the Mishkan in the shape of a luxury battle shrine. The date of the death of Akhenaten is placed at about 1330 BCE, and Tutankhamun came to the throne the same year. Was that then the date of the Exodus? Dating is a tricky subject and it is difficult to see how the Hebrew Bible can give us exact dates, for how were they counted in antiquity? But the Bible gives us two hard dates. One is that the Children of Israel were in Egypt for exactly 430 years, from entry to Exodus (Exodus 12:40). If the Exodus was 1330 BCE, the entry would have been in 1760 CE. That of course is too early for Jacob and his 12 sons, and the rabbis themselves have rejected that period of 430 years and reduced it to 210 years in the Passover Haggada, to relate it more logically to the four generations from Jacob to Levi, to Kehot, to Amram, to Moses. But it works with the idea that the Israelites came to Egypt with the semitic Hyksos, as proposed by Josephus Flavius, the early Jewish historian, and that event is placed by scholars at around 1750 BCE.
The other “fixed” biblical date is that the Solomonic Temple was built 480 years after the Exodus (I Kings 6:1). That is a nominal date as the author will have counted 12 generations and multiplied them by the biblical reckoning of 40 years per generation. But that figure is too high, as a generation, for even in biblical times it was more like 30 years. If we then say 12 generations make up 360 years, then 360 years after 1330 is 970 BCE. The Temple is dated by most scholars to around 950 BCE, so 970 BCE is not a bad fit.
Evidence or not for the Exodus? Evidence there is none, but we can see that there was one period in Egyptian history when such an event could have taken place, one period when the three major conditions suggested by the biblical account came together and could have given it plausibility. And that would make Akhenaten the Pharaoh of the Oppression and young Tutankhamun the Pharaoh of the Exodus. And the date? That would be around 1330 BCE.
The author is a Senior Fellow at the W. F. Albright Institute of Archaeological Research, Jerusalem.
Any thoughts and suggested reading would be appreciated
Hi Eric1 … As part of the title of “The Jerusalem Post” asks “The Exodus: Does Archaeology Have A Say”
I would highly recommend you read “The Bible Unearthed”. The book is co-authored by Israel Finkelstein Professor of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University.
Not only does the book put the biblical world into historical context, it is jammed full of very useful information that is easy for us non scholarly types to follow.
There is a section on “The Hyksos” you should find very interesting as it clearly lays out the relationship between Egypt, The Hyksos and the Canaanite People. Although possibly not the one you expected.
These days most my books are in E-format … This is one worth having in hard copy sitting on the shelf.
Hey Jen! Hope you’re still checking this thread but I just saw your post. Try these sites –
** you do not have permission to see this link **
** you do not have permission to see this link **
and you’ll really enjoy this one –
** you do not have permission to see this link **
Stephen said
Hey Jen! Hope you’re still checking this thread but I just saw your post. Try these sites –** you do not have permission to see this link **
** you do not have permission to see this link **
and you’ll really enjoy this one –
** you do not have permission to see this link **
5* from me as i enjoyed them as well 

kendalynx said
Dr. Ehrman, I am currently reading through your textbook, The Bible: A Historical And Literary Introduction. On page 104 you disclose historical problems between different narratives of the OT. One particularly strong example is “Who killed Goliath? (Read 1 Samuel 17, but then look at 2 Samuel 21:19.)”
When I view modern translations, the problem is evident; but, when I read older texts, for instance the KJV, the verses are in agreement due to ellipses. Uneducated in Hebrew or Greek, I am unable to discern difficult, conflicting translations. How are ellipses justified by translators and when are they deemed to be appropriately used to fill in the gaps in translations? I am not bringing this up as an argument but trying to determine how relevant ellipses are to the critical analysis of scripture.
I am currently reading an interesting book called “Who Wrote the Bible?” by Richard Elliott Friedman. I just read one or two chapters, but he’s quite convincing and is not biased. He ties the differences to the differences in the cultural and political agendas of North and South parts that made up Israel. Anyway, it’s very convincing.

Jen said
I am currently reading Thomas Paine’s “The Age of Reason” online. Could anyone on this forum direct me to a modern author who might give a concise list of the same (plus more) examples of internal evidence from the scriptures themselves (Old Testament) that the biblical authors were not whom they have been purported to be? I would like a list of evidence without all the emotion that Paine puts into his writing. As the old saying goes “Give me the facts, ma’am, just the facts”Although I am learning a lot from Paine’s writings, I would like to read a modern author and preferably one who doesn’t necessarily induct so much of his theology into the matter (such as Paine does his deist theology). On a related note: Online availability of reading material is important for me.
Jen asked (06 Jan. 2015) about if there is any internal evidence existing for showing that the biblical authors were not whom they purported to be? The answer is YES. An example is the mention of the Edomite capital city of Bozrah (Genesis 36:33), modern Buseira today (2021). When excavated to bedrock by archaeologists it was determined to be no earlier than circa 725 BC, the late Iron Age II Period. Some devout Christian scholars claim Moses wrote Genesis between 1446 BC and 1406 BC (based on 1 Kings 6:1). So these scholars would date Bozrah to that era, but its not of that period, its circa 725 BC. Obviously, Moses did NOT write the Pentateuch between 1446-1406 BC, it was created no earlier than 725 BC, AFTER Bozrah came into being! BINGO! We have “proof” that Moses is NOT what he seems to be, a Creator of the Pentateuch circa 1446-1406 BC. Someone, apparently, is fraudulently passing himself as Moses, some time after 725 BC!

Sapiensape43 said
Jen said
I am currently reading Thomas Paine’s “The Age of Reason” online. Could anyone on this forum direct me to a modern author who might give a concise list of the same (plus more) examples of internal evidence from the scriptures themselves (Old Testament) that the biblical authors were not whom they have been purported to be? I would like a list of evidence without all the emotion that Paine puts into his writing. As the old saying goes “Give me the facts, ma’am, just the facts”
Although I am learning a lot from Paine’s writings, I would like to read a modern author and preferably one who doesn’t necessarily induct so much of his theology into the matter (such as Paine does his deist theology). On a related note: Online availability of reading material is important for me.
Jen asked (06 Jan. 2015) about if there is any internal evidence existing for showing that the biblical authors were not whom they purported to be? The answer is YES. An example is the mention of the Edomite capital city of Bozrah (Genesis 36:33), modern Buseira today (2021). When excavated to bedrock by archaeologists it was determined to be no earlier than circa 725 BC, the late Iron Age II Period. Some devout Christian scholars claim Moses wrote Genesis between 1446 BC and 1406 BC (based on 1 Kings 6:1). So these scholars would date Bozrah to that era, but its not of that period, its circa 725 BC. Obviously, Moses did NOT write the Pentateuch between 1446-1406 BC, it was created no earlier than 725 BC, AFTER Bozrah came into being! BINGO! We have “proof” that Moses is NOT what he seems to be, a Creator of the Pentateuch circa 1446-1406 BC. Someone, apparently, is fraudulently passing himself as Moses, some time after 725 BC!

Sapiensape43 said
Sapiensape43 said
Jen said
I am currently reading Thomas Paine’s “The Age of Reason” online. Could anyone on this forum direct me to a modern author who might give a concise list of the same (plus more) examples of internal evidence from the scriptures themselves (Old Testament) that the biblical authors were not whom they have been purported to be? I would like a list of evidence without all the emotion that Paine puts into his writing. As the old saying goes “Give me the facts, ma’am, just the facts”
Although I am learning a lot from Paine’s writings, I would like to read a modern author and preferably one who doesn’t necessarily induct so much of his theology into the matter (such as Paine does his deist theology). On a related note: Online availability of reading material is important for me.
Jen asked (06 Jan. 2015) about if there is any internal evidence existing for showing that the biblical authors were not whom they purported to be? The answer is YES. An example is the mention of the Edomite capital city of Bozrah (Genesis 36:33), modern Buseira today (2021). When excavated to bedrock by archaeologists it was determined to be no earlier than circa 725 BC, the late Iron Age II Period. Some devout Christian scholars claim Moses wrote Genesis between 1446 BC and 1406 BC (based on 1 Kings 6:1). So these scholars would date Bozrah to that era, but its not of that period, its circa 725 BC. Obviously, Moses did NOT write the Pentateuch between 1446-1406 BC, it was created no earlier than 725 BC, AFTER Bozrah came into being! BINGO! We have “proof” that Moses is NOT what he seems to be, a Creator of the Pentateuch circa 1446-1406 BC. Someone, apparently, is fraudulently passing himself as Moses, some time after 725 BC!
See the following url for a FREE READ of Burton MacDonald’s book (published in 2000) on WHY he believes Exodus’ World is NOT of the 15th or 13th Century BC, BUT of 8th-6th century BC. He bases his conclusion on recent archaeological surveys of ancient Moab, Ammon and Edom, mentioned in the Exodus narratives** you do not have permission to see this link **
Here is Burton MacDonald’s SUMMARY on the world being reflected in the Exodus narratives:
Burton MacDonald (East of the Jordan, Territories and Sites of the Hebrew Scriptures. Boston. ASOR. 2000. pp. 4-5, “Introduction”) had the following to say after his exhaustive archaeological enumeration of sites mentioned in Edom, Moab and Ammon in the Exodus narratives: “My experience in the field of Near Eastern archaeology has led me to the general conclusion that the biblical stories about Transjordanian places and events best fit into the Iron II period and later. This conclusion comes from a general knowledge of the results of current archaeological work throughout Jordan and specifically from my archaeological survey work south of Wadi al-Hasa (MacDonald et al. 1988), in Southern Ghors and Northeast ‘Arabah (MacDonald et al. 1992), and in the Tafila-Busayra region (beginning in 1999). The findings of the above-listed surveys indicate there are few, if any Late Bronze Age materials and a paucity of Iron I Age materials in all these areas. Thus I was forced to question the traditionally held opinion that the Moses-led group, on its way from Egypt to the land of Canaan, passed through/around Edom (and Moab) during the Late Bronze-Iron I periods (MacDonald 1994b). On the basis of recent archaeological work, I concluded that a Moses-led group would have encountered little, if any, opposition if it had passed through the territories in question during the periods traditionally associated with this event. However, recent archaeological evidence indicates that opposition to such a passage would be understandable during the Iron II period. Thus, the narratives relative to the exodus best fit the settlement history of the area during the Iron II rather than the previous two archaeological periods. Similarly, the narrative of Israel’s defeat of Sihon and the capture of his capital of Heshbon would fit better the archaeological history of this site during the Iron II rather than the Late Bronze-Iron I period (see Chapter 5). This does not mean that the present writer denies that there are older traditions behind the narratives. However, the texts in question were most probably written in the light of the settlement conditions that prevailed in the Iron II period and probably towards the end of that period. Thus, the assumption here is that although the biblical writer may have used material that predates his time, he set that material into a context, namely the Iron II and later periods, that would be meaningful to his readers.”
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
1 Guest(s)

