Argumentation Specialist
Some have said Moses did not exist. Maybe that is another attack by the mythicists.
The Hebrew Bible not only tells us of Moses, it also tells us of the design, construction, and capabilities of the Ark of the Covenant.
For an Argumentation Specialist to accept the rationale that Moses did not exist, it would be necessary to equally support the idea that the Ark of the Covenant did not exist.
This video shows the design, construction and capabilities of the Ark of the Covenant. It also gives the science of electricity explaining how its design and construction gave it certain capabilities.
I do not think that it would necessarily be required for one to accept or reject the stories of Moses and the Ark of the Covenant as a pair. Both may be true, or both may be false, or both may be a pile of myths accumulated over some slight basis of truth. We really have no very reliable proof for either, unless you can produce the ark (or the bones of Moses). The idea that some object called the ark and that may have at least vaguely been as described, in appearance or supposed religious role, is not entirely impossible, but the idea that it was a battery or communication device simply has no basis other than fantasy. There may be some parallels with the mythology of King Arthur. Surely, no such person, the son of Uther Pendragon, tutored by Merlin, and granted a magic sword by the Lady of the Lake, ever existed. (There may have been some hero who fought against the Romans or other invaders, or a series of historical figures may have been fused into one, with the more fantastic elements of the story being added and refined over time. It mostly survives because it is such a great tale.)
Steefen said
Argumentation SpecialistThis video has an error in history. Moses did not have a showdown with Ramesses the Great. See the book, Historical Accuracy by Steve Campbell.
Steefen, elsewhere on this forum, seems to support the notion advanced by David Rohl, that the Exodus took place circa 1455 BC. The problem? Moses is portrayed as attacking Sihon the Amorite and taking from him his kingdom (biblical Moab). Moses then allows the tribes of Gad and Reuben to settle in Moab and build villages there. Two of the villages were Heshbon and Elealeh (modern Tall Hisban and nearby El-Al in present day Jordan, cf. Numbers 32.3,37), upon excavations by archaeologists, they turned out to be no earlier than Iron Age I, 1200 BC to 1100 BC. If Rohl is correct, that the Exodus was in the 15th century BC (circa 1455 BC, and the Mosaic Conquest of Moab circa 1415 BC, 40 years later), then some “tall explaining” is needed by his Apologist, Steefen, as to why these sites did NOT exist in that time period (the 15th century BC), they exist no earlier than the Iron Age I Period, the 12th century BC. For the in depth archaeological findings on Heshbon and Eleahleh see pages 115-116, in Burton MacDonald, 2000, East of the Jordan, Territories and Sites of the Hebrew Scriptures. Boston. American Schools of Oriental Research. Burton (pp. 115-116): “Elealeh…It is later singled out as one of the towns in Reuben’s possession that the Reubenites are said to have rebuilt (Num. 32.37)…Elealeh is always associated with Heshbon in the Bible, with the latter always coming first…The Hebrew Elealeh is preserved in the archaeological site of El-Al located 3 km northeast of Tall Hisban…The site of El-Al is impressive since many walls and buildig foundations are clearly visible. Though Glueck found no Bronze Age sherds at the site, he did find numerous Early Iron I-II, some Hellenistic…Reed in his 1962 soundings at the site…reports that the present walls may have been reused from the Iron Age, and that the debris against the lower walls contained pottery predominately from the Iron I and Iron II periods (1972:23)…There appears to be little doubt that the archaeological ruin of El-Al is the location of the biblical site of Elealeh. The site’s relation to Heshbon in both biblical texts and Eusebius, the preservation of the Hebrew toponymn at the site, and the archaeological evidence all support this position.” Based on the archaeological findings, it my understanding that the Biblical Exodus is conflating TWO EVENTS into ONE, (1) The Hyksos Expulsion of circa 1530 BC by Pharaoh Ahmoses I, and EVENT TWO (2) The settlements on both sides of the Jordan river, in Moab and Canaan in the Iron Age I Period (1200-1100 BC). These two events are separated in time by 300 years. The proof for the Hyksos Expulsion being Event ONE? The archaeological findings at Jericho by Dame Kenyon. She found a collapsed wall (earthquake) and burned city, dating this event to the Hyksos Expulsion. She thought Ahmoses I Egyptians had torched the town, NOT Joshua and Israel. Christian Apologist Bryant Wood challenged this claiming the event was circa 1406 BC to align it with the Bible (1 Kings 6:1). However, Radio-carbon dating of burned grain in storage jars VIDICATED Kenyon’s dating NOT Woods’ dating. The Bible has Jericho’s defensive wall collapsing and then Joshua burns the city. Kenyon said this Middle Bronze Age II wall was Jericho’s LAST defensive wall, subsequent structures do exist but no newer walls were found. All this means that the Exodus from Egypt, is recalling the Hyksos Expulsion, making it Israel’s Expulsion. Pharaoh Ahmoses I then becomes the un-named Pharaoh who expelled Israel (the Hyksos). I also suspect he has been recast as Moses, Prince of Egypt, responsible for an Exodus out of Egypt.
JAS
The idea that some object called the ark and that may have at least vaguely been as described, in appearance or supposed religious role, is not entirely impossible, but the idea that it was a battery or communication device simply has no basis other than fantasy.
Steefen
Sorry, you are in error. It was recreated and proved to be functional. The scientific evidence is in the video: recreated on a simple scale and recreated closer to the original.
Sapiensape43
Steefen, elsewhere on this forum, seems to support the notion advanced by David Rohl, that the Exodus took place circa 1455 BC. The problem? Moses is portrayed as attacking Sihon the Amorite and taking from him his kingdom (biblical Moab). Moses then allows the tribes of Gad and Reuben to settle in Moab and build villages there. Two of the villages were Heshbon and Elealeh (modern Tall Hisban and nearby El-Al in present day Jordan, cf. ** you do not have permission to see this link **), upon excavations by archaeologists, they turned out to be no earlier than Iron Age I, 1200 BC to 1100 BC.
If Rohl is correct, that the Exodus was in the 15th century BC (circa 1455 BC, and the Mosaic Conquest of Moab circa 1415 BC, 40 years later), then some “tall explaining” is needed by his Apologist, Steefen, as to why these sites did NOT exist in that time period (the 15th century BC), they exist no earlier than the Iron Age I Period, the 12th century BC.
For the in depth archaeological findings on Heshbon and Eleahleh see pages 115-116, in Burton MacDonald, 2000, East of the Jordan, Territories and Sites of the Hebrew Scriptures. Boston. American Schools of Oriental Research. Burton (pp. 115-116): “Elealeh…It is later singled out as one of the towns in Reuben’s possession that the Reubenites are said to have rebuilt (** you do not have permission to see this link **)…Elealeh is always associated with Heshbon in the Bible, with the latter always coming first…The Hebrew Elealeh is preserved in the archaeological site of El-Al located 3 km northeast of Tall Hisban…The site of El-Al is impressive since many walls and buildig foundations are clearly visible.
Though Glueck found no Bronze Age sherds at the site, he did find numerous Early Iron I-II, some Hellenistic…Reed in his 1962 soundings at the site…reports that the present walls may have been reused from the Iron Age, and that the debris against the lower walls contained pottery predominately from the Iron I and Iron II periods (1972:23)…There appears to be little doubt that the archaeological ruin of El-Al is the location of the biblical site of Elealeh. The site’s relation to Heshbon in both biblical texts and Eusebius, the preservation of the Hebrew toponymn at the site, and the archaeological evidence all support this position.”
= = =
Based on the archaeological findings, it my understanding that the Biblical Exodus is conflating TWO EVENTS into ONE,
(1) The Hyksos Expulsion of circa 1530 BC by Pharaoh Ahmoses I,
and
EVENT TWO (2) The settlements on both sides of the Jordan river, in Moab and Canaan in the Iron Age I Period (1200-1100 BC).
These two events are separated in time by 300 years. The proof for the Hyksos Expulsion being Event ONE? The archaeological findings at Jericho by Dame Kenyon. She found a collapsed wall (earthquake) and burned city, dating this event to the Hyksos Expulsion. She thought Ahmoses I Egyptians had torched the town, NOT Joshua and Israel. Christian Apologist Bryant Wood challenged this claiming the event was circa 1406 BC to align it with the Bible (** you do not have permission to see this link **). However, Radio-carbon dating of burned grain in storage jars VIDICATED Kenyon’s dating NOT Woods’ dating. The Bible has Jericho’s defensive wall collapsing and then Joshua burns the city. Kenyon said this Middle Bronze Age II wall was Jericho’s LAST defensive wall, subsequent structures do exist but no newer walls were found.
All this means that the Exodus from Egypt, is recalling the Hyksos Expulsion, making it Israel’s Expulsion. Pharaoh Ahmoses I then becomes the un-named Pharaoh who expelled Israel (the Hyksos). I also suspect he has been recast as Moses, Prince of Egypt, responsible for an Exodus out of Egypt.
# # #
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
I do not see a possible link from Jacob to Joseph to the Asiatics of Avaris in the Hyksos as the Israelites interpretation of the Exodus.
Simpler, the Hyksos came into northern Egypt when the Asiatic community in Avaris was leaving. I see a possible connection of Jacob & Joseph connected to the Asiatics of Avaris. I do not see a possible connection of Jacob & Joseph connected to the Hyksos. There is the Jacob/Israel descent into Northern Egypt and there is a separate and later descent into Northern Egypt made by the Hyksos.
Steefen said
Sorry, you are in error. It was recreated and proved to be functional. The scientific evidence is in the video: recreated on a simple scale and recreated closer to the original.
One cannot really recreate what has no real plans, or description in sufficient detail. And no, a gold box of a certain size has no special properties beyond its cost. (Dore’s drawings, and other depictions, are more imagination than fact.) What source do you use to back up your claim that I am in error? It is a hot day, and I could use a dose of absurd propaganda as entertainment. (I hope it is something at least a bit better than the initial video above.)
Steefen said
Sapiensape43Steefen, elsewhere on this forum, seems to support the notion advanced by David Rohl, that the Exodus took place circa 1455 BC. The problem? Moses is portrayed as attacking Sihon the Amorite and taking from him his kingdom (biblical Moab). Moses then allows the tribes of Gad and Reuben to settle in Moab and build villages there. Two of the villages were Heshbon and Elealeh (modern Tall Hisban and nearby El-Al in present day Jordan, cf. ** you do not have permission to see this link **), upon excavations by archaeologists, they turned out to be no earlier than Iron Age I, 1200 BC to 1100 BC.
If Rohl is correct, that the Exodus was in the 15th century BC (circa 1455 BC, and the Mosaic Conquest of Moab circa 1415 BC, 40 years later), then some “tall explaining” is needed by his Apologist, Steefen, as to why these sites did NOT exist in that time period (the 15th century BC), they exist no earlier than the Iron Age I Period, the 12th century BC.
For the in depth archaeological findings on Heshbon and Eleahleh see pages 115-116, in Burton MacDonald, 2000, East of the Jordan, Territories and Sites of the Hebrew Scriptures. Boston. American Schools of Oriental Research. Burton (pp. 115-116): “Elealeh…It is later singled out as one of the towns in Reuben’s possession that the Reubenites are said to have rebuilt (** you do not have permission to see this link **)…Elealeh is always associated with Heshbon in the Bible, with the latter always coming first…The Hebrew Elealeh is preserved in the archaeological site of El-Al located 3 km northeast of Tall Hisban…The site of El-Al is impressive since many walls and buildig foundations are clearly visible.
Though Glueck found no Bronze Age sherds at the site, he did find numerous Early Iron I-II, some Hellenistic…Reed in his 1962 soundings at the site…reports that the present walls may have been reused from the Iron Age, and that the debris against the lower walls contained pottery predominately from the Iron I and Iron II periods (1972:23)…There appears to be little doubt that the archaeological ruin of El-Al is the location of the biblical site of Elealeh. The site’s relation to Heshbon in both biblical texts and Eusebius, the preservation of the Hebrew toponymn at the site, and the archaeological evidence all support this position.”
= = =
Based on the archaeological findings, it my understanding that the Biblical Exodus is conflating TWO EVENTS into ONE,
(1) The Hyksos Expulsion of circa 1530 BC by Pharaoh Ahmoses I,
and
EVENT TWO (2) The settlements on both sides of the Jordan river, in Moab and Canaan in the Iron Age I Period (1200-1100 BC).
These two events are separated in time by 300 years. The proof for the Hyksos Expulsion being Event ONE? The archaeological findings at Jericho by Dame Kenyon. She found a collapsed wall (earthquake) and burned city, dating this event to the Hyksos Expulsion. She thought Ahmoses I Egyptians had torched the town, NOT Joshua and Israel. Christian Apologist Bryant Wood challenged this claiming the event was circa 1406 BC to align it with the Bible (** you do not have permission to see this link **). However, Radio-carbon dating of burned grain in storage jars VIDICATED Kenyon’s dating NOT Woods’ dating. The Bible has Jericho’s defensive wall collapsing and then Joshua burns the city. Kenyon said this Middle Bronze Age II wall was Jericho’s LAST defensive wall, subsequent structures do exist but no newer walls were found.
All this means that the Exodus from Egypt, is recalling the Hyksos Expulsion, making it Israel’s Expulsion. Pharaoh Ahmoses I then becomes the un-named Pharaoh who expelled Israel (the Hyksos). I also suspect he has been recast as Moses, Prince of Egypt, responsible for an Exodus out of Egypt.
# # #
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
I do not see a possible link from Jacob to Joseph to the Asiatics of Avaris in the Hyksos as the Israelites interpretation of the Exodus.
Simpler, the Hyksos came into northern Egypt when the Asiatic community in Avaris was leaving. I see a possible connection of Jacob & Joseph connected to the Asiatics of Avaris. I do not see a possible connection of Jacob & Joseph connected to the Hyksos. There is the Jacob/Israel descent into Northern Egypt and there is a separate and later descent into Northern Egypt made by the Hyksos.
In regard to Steve Campbell’s statement about a “link” between Jacob, Joseph and the Hyksos: I understand the account was penned in the Babylonian Exile between 562-560 BC to explain why both Israel and Judah are in Exile, for offending their God. All the events, Genesis-Exodus are FICTION, and arise from the imagination of the narrator. But I do seek historical kernels that might possibly be what’s BEHIND the account. I find this in the Hyksos Expulsion of circa 1550 BC fused with the Iron Age I settlement of Moab and Canaan of circa 1200-1100 BC, based on archaeological dating of sites appearing the Conquest narratives. As regards the Hyksos, there are Egyptian scarabs of the Hyksos period bearing the name Yakob-Her, which some have suggested might be what is behind the notion of Jacob in Egypt, in the Bible. It is my understanding that the Iron Age I settlers of Moab and Canaan are Arameans (Syrians) from Harran (biblical Abraham and kin). WHY? The Bible has them settling in Canaan and Moab in a Philistine world, and the Philistines settled in Canaan no earlier than circa 1175 BC in the reign of Rameses III. I do not have the archaeological proof, however. I would assume that clay cooking pots would need to be spectographically investigated in the earliest levels of Iron Age I villages to see if the clays are from Syria. If they are, then this would confirm my theory that the settlers are from Syria and not local indigenous people in rebellion to Egyptian authority.
Sapiensape43
In regard to Steve Campbell’s statement about a “link” between Jacob, Joseph and the Hyksos: I understand the account was penned in the Babylonian Exile between 562-560 BC to explain why both Israel and Judah are in Exile, for offending their God. All the events, Genesis-Exodus are FICTION
Steve Campbell, author of Historical Accuracy
Not persuasive, we agree to disagree: I’m out of this discussion with you.
In his Testament series, John Romer tells an amusing story that seems relevant, although we will disagree as to who is on which side. The story is that there was a group of rabbis engaged in a very noisy argument about some point of holy law. Most of the rabbis present held one view, but one rabbi held an opposing view. After going on for hours, the one rabbi called out to God “If I am right, may the trees bend to the ground,” and, miraculously, the trees bent to the ground, but the rabbis continued to argue. So the rabbi then called out to God “If I am right, may there be a great wind,” and a great wind did indeed blow through the assembly, but the rabbis continued to argue. So the rabbit called out again, “If I am right, give me a direct and irrefutable sign,” and a great disembodied voice boomed out “this man is right,” at which point the rabbis just started to argue with God.
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