Bart Ehrman Blog Readers Forum

A A A
Forum Scope


Match



Forum Options



Min search length: 3 characters / Max search length: 84 characters
Lost password?
sp_TopicIcon
The Rational Bible
Avatar
jeffmd90

5 Posts
(Offline)
1
September 23, 2020 - 4:19 pm

Has anyone read the commentaries on Exodus and Genesis (the other commentaries for the rest of the Torah are forthcoming) by Dennis Prager?  His “Rational” Bible aims to show why how the Bible is still relevant in the 21st century and consistent with rational thought.  I consider it in some ways an exercise in apolegetics but there are some sections which made me think differently about certain topics which before I found barbaric, take this passage for example:

 

There is a Torah law that says if you have a particularly bad—a “wayward”—son, you may take him to the elders (the court) of your city; and if they find him guilty, they are to stone him to death. When modern men and women read that, they dismiss it as morally primitive: “What do you expect from something people wrote 3,000 years ago?”

But since I don’t believe it’s “something people wrote,” I don’t have that option. Consequently, I have had to look for rational explanations for seemingly irrational laws and passages and for moral explanations for seemingly immoral laws and passages.

And I have almost always found them. In this case, for example, I came to understand this law was one of the great moral leaps forward in the history of mankind. In this law, the Torah brilliantly preserved parental authority while permanently depriving parents of the right to kill their children, a commonplace occurrence in the ancient world and even today (for example, “honor killings” in the Muslim world). The law permits only a duly established court (“the elders”)—not parents—to take the life of their child. And we have no record of any court in Jewish history ever executing a “wayward” son.

Prager, Dennis. The Rational Bible: Exodus (p. xxii).

Avatar
DirkCampbell

89 Posts
(Offline)
2
September 27, 2020 - 5:03 pm

Special pleading. Today we consider it outrageous to regard the following as capital crimes: disobedience to parents, kidnapping, failure to confine a dangerous animal, doing work on the Sabbath, homosexual acts, false prophecy, refusing to obey a decision of a judge or priest, false claim of a woman’s virginity at time of marriage, sex between a woman pledged to be married and a man other than her betrothed. These and many other cases are punishable by death in the OT. It is not a moral book.

Avatar
DirkCampbell

89 Posts
(Offline)
3
September 27, 2020 - 5:07 pm

Welcome to the forum by the way! Please excuse my blinkered vision.

Avatar
jeffmd90

5 Posts
(Offline)
4
September 27, 2020 - 8:41 pm

A debate between Bart and Dennis would be interesting!

Avatar
Stephen
4540 Posts
(Offline)
5
September 28, 2020 - 2:02 pm

It’s funny to hear the Torah honored because it was marginally less brutal than its predecessors and congratulated because it wasn’t actually followed! 

I have had to look for rational explanations for seemingly irrational laws and passages and for moral explanations for seemingly immoral laws and passages.

And I have almost always found them.

Surprise surprise!

Avatar
Fredbauck

42 Posts
(Offline)
6
January 19, 2021 - 11:30 am

I do believe that the Torah is “something people wrote,” but I go along with Prager (Apparently.  I haven’t read his book.) when he looks for a rational explanation for what looks like an immoral law.  Clearly the Torah is a milestone in the moral development of humankind, and this particular “rationalization” seems particularly insightful and smells a lot like the truth.

Avatar
Stephen
4540 Posts
(Offline)
7
January 22, 2021 - 8:17 pm

…a rational explanation for what looks like an immoral law…

The  most  rational  explanation  is  that  we don’t  share  an  ancient  sense  of  morality.    Morality  evolves.    We  learn  and  adapt.  Nobody  in  the  Bible  had  the  moral  intuition  that  slavery  was  an  intrinsic  evil.  It  took  the  secular  Enlightenment  for  the  pious  to  make  this  discovery  although  they  are  more  than  happy  to  claim credit  for  it.  The  idea  that  an  ancient  document can  be  the  summa  of  moral  insight  is  ludicrous.

Avatar
DrakeC

1 Posts
(Offline)
8
January 27, 2021 - 12:16 pm

Stephen said
…a rational explanation for what looks like an immoral law…

The  most  rational  explanation  is  that  we don’t  share  an  ancient  sense  of  morality.    Morality  evolves.    We  learn  and  adapt.  Nobody  in  the  Bible  had  the  moral  intuition  that  slavery  was  an  intrinsic  evil.  It  took  the  secular  Enlightenment  for  the  pious  to  make  this  discovery  although  they  are  more  than  happy  to  claim credit  for  it.  The  idea  that  an  ancient  document can  be  the  summa  of  moral  insight  is  ludicrous.

  

First time poster!

What Stephen said is 100% correct.  Making up excuses and twisting meanings to make scripture (any scripture) fit into our modern sensibilities is, in my opinion, a disservice (or in a religious context, disrespectful) to the text itself.  People wrote, redacted, and copied, and studied these texts under specific circumstances for specific purposes – keeping that in mind, one can still find wisdom from the words, even if the wisdom is “we don’t do that anymore because now we know better”.

Forum Timezone: America/Indiana/Indianapolis
All RSSShow Stats
Administrators:
BDEhrman
FreedomBen
evgendob
Robert
Top Posters:
Steefen: 7698
Stephen: 4540
Porphyry: 1835
godspell: 1827
DavidFord: 1341
BJH1960: 1186
brenmcg: 1184
Colin Milton: 1142
JAS: 948
Jarek: 936
Newest Members:
Mada
Fl.o0wer42
MatthRicht
mleyba
wwbate
david.snider2
Greyguuze
hdblair
Jerry1909
Blair
Forum Stats:
Groups: 2
Forums: 13
Topics: 2606
Posts: 46020

 

Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 65
Members: 65819
Moderators: 0
Admins: 4
Most Users Ever Online: 3559
Currently Online: BJH1960
Guest(s) 30
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)