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Why it is said that there are no Jewish records of expecting the Messiah to die?
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Georgi

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January 1, 2022 - 5:17 pm

Hi Dr. Ehrman,

I am watching your course “From Jesus to Constantine: A History of Early Christianity” and in Lecture 4 you said:

There is no record in any Jewish source that we have, prior to Christianity, of a suffering Messiah.

 

Isn’t Daniel 9:26 KJV saying exactly that?

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself

 

By the way – which English translation of the New Testament do you think is the most accurate?

 

Thank you for the answers in advance!

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Robert
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January 1, 2022 - 5:51 pm
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Georgi

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January 1, 2022 - 6:15 pm

Hi Robert!

Thank you very much for the answer!

Btw, where does Bart answer questions?

Thanks!

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Robert
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January 1, 2022 - 6:19 pm
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Steefen
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January 2, 2022 - 9:51 pm

Georgi

Bart said there is no suffering Messiah before Christianity.

Question: Doesn’t Daniel say the Messiah will be cut off? Isn’t that suffering?

Robert

I prefer the translation “anointed one” rather than “the Messiah.” [Robert gives reasons.]

NET Bible
Now after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one will be cut off and have nothing.

Robert

A better translation is that the temple was ‘corrupted’, not ‘destroyed’.

NET Bible

As for the city and the sanctuary, the people of the coming prince will destroy them. But his end will come speedily like a flood. Until the end of the war that has been decreed, there will be destruction.

Steefen

The people of the coming prince [the people are the Seleucids?] will corrupt the city and the sanctuary.

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jaihare

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February 19, 2022 - 1:39 pm

Steefen said
Georgi

Bart said there is no suffering Messiah before Christianity.

Question: Doesn’t Daniel say the Messiah will be cut off? Isn’t that suffering?

Robert

I prefer the translation “anointed one” rather than “the Messiah.” [Robert gives reasons.]

NET Bible

Now after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one will be cut off and have nothing.

Robert

A better translation is that the temple was ‘corrupted’, not ‘destroyed’.

NET Bible

As for the city and the sanctuary, the people of the coming prince will destroy them. But his end will come speedily like a flood. Until the end of the war that has been decreed, there will be destruction.

Steefen

The people of the coming prince [the people are the Seleucids?] will corrupt the city and the sanctuary.

Who are you quoting here? I don’t see anything from Robert in this thread representing anything similar to what I think you’re quoting him as saying. The Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament (Koehler et alii) gives the meanings of “ruin, annihilate, destroy” for הִשְׁחִית (hišḥîṯ), and that certainly agrees with how we use the word today. Why do you think it means “corrupt”? What support do you have for this, or do you just prefer translations that agree with how you want to interpret a passage?

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Steefen
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February 19, 2022 - 1:47 pm

jaihare
I don’t see anything from Robert in this thread …  Why do you think it means “corrupt”?

Steefen quoting Robert
A better translation is that the temple was ‘corrupted’, not ‘destroyed’. The temple was not ‘destroyed’ during the time of the Maccabees but it was ‘corrupted’

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jaihare

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February 19, 2022 - 1:50 pm

Steefen said
jaihare

I don’t see anything from Robert in this thread …  Why do you think it means “corrupt”?

Steefen quoting Robert

A better translation is that the temple was ‘corrupted’, not ‘destroyed’. The temple was not ‘destroyed’ during the time of the Maccabees but it was ‘corrupted’

Why don’t you use the quote feature on the forum? It’s impossible to see who you’re quoting and when you’re writing your own words.

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jaihare

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February 19, 2022 - 1:57 pm

Robert said
This translation capitalizes Messiah, but in the Hebrew it can be merely any anointed person, for example, a high priest that will be killed. What is translated as ‘but not for himself’ in Hebrew is simply ‘and there is nothing for him’, hence the translator is overreaching to try and read into this text some kind of atonement for others. There is nothing in the Hebrew text that implies this is ‘a redeemer who dies for his people’. John Collins and most critical exegetes see this as a reference, not to a or the Messiah, but rather to an ‘anointed’ high priest Onias III (cf 2 Macc 4,23–28, Dan 11,22). A better translation is that the temple was ‘corrupted’, not ‘destroyed’. The temple was not ‘destroyed’ during the time of the Maccabees but it was ‘corrupted’. Same word in Hebrew (שׁחת shxcht). See the NKJV translation of this same word in Gen 6,11-13:

The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. So God looked upon the earth, and indeed it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth. And God said to Noah, “The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them; and behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Bart’s favorite translation is the New Revised Standard Version (NRSV).  

It’s not exactly the same word. It’s a play on words. The earth was corrupt (using the niphal of the root), and God said he would destroy it (using the hiphil of the root). These are not the same words. They are the same roots. It’s like saying that the serpent was naked in Genesis 3:1 or that Adam and Eve were cunning in Genesis 2:25 because the one says עָרוּם (ʿārûm) and the other says עֲרֻמִּים (ʿārummîm). In the niphal, the root שׁח״ת means “be ruined, corrupted,” and the active form that is associated with it is the piel. In the hiphil, it specifically means “to destroy, annihilate.” These are different uses of the root. The hiphil is used in Daniel’s verse, and it certainly is talking about the destruction of the city.

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Steefen
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February 19, 2022 - 2:55 pm

I already told Robert I did not agree with his translation when I countered:

The NET bible scholars did not go with the corruption terminology but the destruction terminology.

If one uses the corruption terminology, one could point to the Seleucids, but if one uses the destruction terminology, one has to specifically point to a Temple destruction.

 

The original post brought up Daniel 9:26

Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing. Then the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations have been decreed.

to counter an interpretation.

 

Furthermore, Daniel 9:26 is describing destruction by war, not corruption by war.

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Robert
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February 20, 2022 - 7:29 am
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Judith

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February 20, 2022 - 8:54 am

“all wet from the flood waters.”

Funny!

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jaihare

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February 20, 2022 - 12:50 pm

Robert said
It’ll be a cold day in hell before I will argue Hebrew with Jason, and since neither of us believe in hell that’s doubly as unlikely to happen, but perhaps we can take a look at Genesis 6,12:

You’re the only person on this forum who knows who I am. It’s kinda neat being somewhat anonymous. LOL

Robert said

‏ וַיַּ֧רְא אֱלֹהִ֛ים אֶת־הָאָ֖רֶץ וְהִנֵּ֣ה נִשְׁחָ֑תָה כִּֽי־הִשְׁחִ֧ית כָּל־בָּשָׂ֛ר אֶת־דַּרְכּ֖וֹ עַל־הָאָֽרֶץ׃

I haven’t studied Hebrew in 30 years, but the second use of of the verbal root שׁחת is used in the hiphil and it seems to me that here it means corrupted and not destroyed. But perhaps I’m all wet, presumably from the flood waters.

That’s the point… When it is used with darkô, as it is here, it means “corrupted his way,” meaning that he has destroyed his own path by doing the things that are wrong (rather than doing what is right). However, the earth there is described using the niphal, which does carry the idea of something being ruined. It’s important to draw a distinction between how the word is used in the piel and niphal and how it’s used in the hiphil. I’ve uploaded the HALOT entry ** you do not have permission to see this link ** for you to go over.

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jaihare

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February 20, 2022 - 12:54 pm

Judith said
“all wet from the flood waters.”

Funny!

Where are you quoting from? If it’s making a joke out of “the end will be in a flood,” that actually does seem funny!

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Robert
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February 21, 2022 - 10:29 am
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mzejum

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February 22, 2022 - 5:19 am

Georgi said
Hi Dr. Ehrman,

I am watching your course “From Jesus to Constantine: A History of Early Christianity” and in Lecture 4 you said:

There is no record in any Jewish source that we have, prior to Christianity, of a suffering Messiah.

 

Isn’t Daniel 9:26 KJV saying exactly that?

And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself

 

By the way – which English translation of the New Testament do you think is the most accurate?

 

Thank you for the answers in advance!

  

Cant this also point to John the Baptist, because him was an anointed 1 for the Israelites? 

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